Definitive paperwork required to purchase a Widebeam for safety compliance

[Barneyp]

21 minutes ago, IanD said:

An accurate summary of the real-life situation 🙂

 

Are you sure about the highlighted bit? "Told" is a strong word, this normally means "instructed" not "suggested", in which case you'd think brokers (at least, those who are members) would do what they're told by their own trade association...

 

https://britishmarine.co.uk/About-us

Yes, told is not the correct word, advised would be more accurate.

2 minutes ago, MtB said:

What happens if the owner of a craft loses their RCD certificate, issued by the builder back in the mists of time?

 

Is there a central register it can be checked against for compliance or could the seller be like cars used to be?

 

"Yes mate it definitely has an MoT (or RCD) but the dog ate it (or it fell in the cut)."

 

 

I think the builder is required to keep records for ten years, certainly no central register. 

 

[MtB]

7 minutes ago, Barneyp said:

 

I think the builder is required to keep records for ten years, certainly no central register. 

 

 

Ok. So if the builder is no longer trading (as is often the case) then what, I wonder....

 

This is certainly the case with one of mine. I bought it with no paperwork whatsoever, so the only clue as to the build date would be the CRT number and even that isn't definitive.

 

 

 

[Barneyp]

17 minutes ago, MartynG said:

I wonder how many boats out there that should have a CE plate etc and  dont have it ?

Perhaps the people who own such boats don't buy /sell through brokers?

 

This broker , who is a member of BMF according to his website, has made his own mid up

https://www.abnb.co.uk/useful-information/faq-rcd

 

At a guess quite a few boats don't have the CE plate.

 

Whatever the intentions of the whoever wrote the regulations, enforcement would be incredibly expensive for very little gain, and even with new boats Trading Standards have better things to be doing.

[IanD]

26 minutes ago, PD1964 said:

As you say not all brokers are members of the BMF and I doubt as you say “Told” is the correct wording, maybe advised as best practice . The BMF members cover a vast network of Marina’s and services. Both offshore and inland waterways and as Offshore seams a bit more strict with complying documentation, I imagine their advice would be followed more to the letter in the Offshore industry than Inland.

 

Which is of course the point, as a lot of Alan's posts have shown.

 

And why it's important to find which brokers are refusing to sell boats without a certificate, specifically on the canals. If they're a broker who sells boats into both canal and offshore markets they're likely to have a "no RCD no sale" policy across the board, and I'd guess it's brokers like this who have refused.

 

OTOH brokers who sell mostly or entirely into the canal market are presumably much less likely to adopt such a position (why would they?), which would explain the "I've never heard of this happening" viewpoint.

 

If this refusal has actually happened then it needs to be made clear how often and by which brokers, because it's perfectly possible that it's not a problem with most brokers on the canals and never will be... 😉

 

(and anyone without an RCD needs to know which brokers to avoid...)

Edited December 29, 2022 by IanD

[MtB]

20 minutes ago, IanD said:

(and anyone without an RCD needs to know which brokers to avoid...)

 

Quite. And any broker gaining themselves a reputation for refusing to list boats they suspect ought to have a RCD/R ticket but don't, are shooting themselves in the foot commercially. 

 

Hence the reluctance to go public shown by the broker whose name was supplied to Tony Brooks as one who declines to sell such boats. They are obviously a bit nervy about their decision.

 

Can any one here actually name one single broker who refuses to sell canal boats wit missing RCD/R tickets? 

 

 

 

Edited December 29, 2022 by MtB
Spelling

[Momac]

7 minutes ago, Barneyp said:

At a guess quite a few boats don't have the CE plate.

 

Whatever the intentions of the whoever wrote the regulations, enforcement would be incredibly expensive for very little gain, and even with new boats Trading Standards have better things to be doing.

My non expert opinion is 

Trading Standards have no authority over the general public and since the RCR does not require a new  assessment if a boat is  sold in the UK for ongoing UK use there is no mechanism for any non compliant  to come to the attention of the authorities. 

Trading standards are not really interested in isolated cases. The following is what trading standards  do ...........

 

 

 

 

How many boats are there  that should have  a CE plate but do not?  It must be low numbers  otherwise there are a lot of rogue boat builders out there .

 

 

 

[Barneyp]

48 minutes ago, MartynG said:

My non expert opinion is 

Trading Standards have no authority over the general public and since the RCR does not require a new  assessment if a boat is  sold in the UK for ongoing UK use there is no mechanism for any non compliant  to come to the attention of the authorities. 

Trading standards are not really interested in isolated cases. The following is what trading standards  do ...........

 

 

 

 

How many boats are there  that should have  a CE plate but do not?  It must be low numbers  otherwise there are a lot of rogue boat builders out there .

 

 

 

I referred to Trading Standards in relation to new boats, in the past they were resourced to deal with smaller more isolated cases, I am aware of a case in the 1990's that they were involved in involving one customers complaint against a small independent electronics store total value of the transaction would have been less than £1000. I'm guessing 30 years of cuts by governments of all colours have resulted in them only having resources to deal with larger scale issues. But, theoretically, trading standards are still the people who should be enforcing the RCD/R with UK Manufacturers and Importers of boats for sale.

 

As to boats without CE plates, presumably anything built before 1997, plus most self fit out boats built after then. And then any boats built, or more likely fitted out, by small independent individuals or companies who either were unaware or choose to ignore the law - I'm guessing there would have been more of these in the early days of the RCD, especially as I remember hearing about people building one off lumpy water boats with the intention of selling them on completion and falsely using the self built exemption.

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, MartynG said:

Trading Standards have no authority over the general public and since the RCR does not require a new  assessment if a boat is  sold in the UK for ongoing UK use ...................

 

 

You keep repeating this .............. so In response I will again say that there is NO requirement for a boat to be reassessed. The requirement is that if sold by a distributor (back to is a broker a distributor question) then the boat MUST only be sold by a didtributor if it meets the following :

 

A distributor must act with due care and their obligations are detailed in Article 10 of the Directive. Before making a product available on the market, the distributor must verify that:

• The product bears the CE marking as required in Article 17

• It is accompanied by the following documents: EU Declaration of Conformity, instructions and safety information, the owner’s manual in the appropriate language for the craft and the engines if installed

 

And

 

• It meets the product identification and traceability requirements, the manufacturer’s identification or the importer’s identification if applicable.

 

Where the distributor has reason to believe that a product is not in conformity, he must not make the product available on the market until it has been brought into conformity. Where the product presents a risk, the distributor must inform the manufacturer or the importer as well as the relevant market surveillance authorities.

 

 

Just the RYA's opinion (who were responsible for the management & implementation of the RCD in the UK) but hey-ho !!

 

ROLE OF BROKER

A broker’s business is to market the Seller’s boat which will include arranging viewings, negotiating the terms of sale, handling the paperwork and collecting and distributing the sale price.

A broker may also carry out title and financial checks, provide documentation in support of the vessel’s VAT status and evidence of RCD compliance. 

For doing this work the broker charges the Seller an agreed commission fee.

 

Broker Representation There are two broker organisations the RYA works alongside with namely the Association of Brokers & Yacht Agents (ABYA), a section of the Yacht Brokers, Designers & Surveyors Association and the Boat Retailers and Brokers Association (BRBA) a group association within the British Marine Federation (BMF)

 

 

AGREEMENT FOR THE SALE AND PURCHASE OF A SECOND-HAND BOAT

An Agreement prepared by the Royal Yachting Association for the sale of a second-hand boat between persons not normally engaged in the business of buying and selling boats.

 

The RYA then go on to detail what documents should be availble when a SECONDHAND boat is sold;

 

1. All Certificates of Registry in the Seller’s possession relating to the boat current or expired;

2. A properly executed Bill of Sale in a form to be approved by the Buyer in favour of the Buyer;

3. Bills of Sale tracing ownership from the very first owner of the vessel to the current Seller;

4. Builder’s certificate;

5. Builder’s invoices;

6. Original/copy VAT invoice;

7. Evidence of date of arrival in the European Community;

8. Confirmation of compliance with the Recreational Craft Directive, if applicable, in the form of an owner’s manual (including or together with a written declaration of conformity) or details of Recreational Craft Directive exemption;

Edited December 29, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Momac]

4 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

The RYA then go on to detail what documents should be availble when a SECONDHAND boat is sold;

 

 

1. All Certificates of Registry in the Seller’s possession relating to the boat current or expired;

2. A properly executed Bill of Sale in a form to be approved by the Buyer in favour of the Buyer;

3. Bills of Sale tracing ownership from the very first owner of the vessel to the current Seller;

4. Builder’s certificate;

5. Builder’s invoices;

6. Original/copy VAT invoice;

7. Evidence of date of arrival in the European Community;

8. Confirmation of compliance with the Recreational Craft Directive, if applicable, in the form of an owner’s manual (including or together with a written declaration of conformity) or details of Recreational Craft Directive exemption;

 

That's what the RYA say  a broker should do

Not what the broker must do. So not legal requirements.

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Rugby Boats guidelines to buying a boat :

 

RCD Extract :

 

 

 

Anyone thinking of buying a completed boat, new or used, should look for these five items:

A builders plate with a
CE mark
A craft identification number (CIN) or hull identification mark (HIN)
An owner’s manual with a copy of :
A declaration of conformity.
Boats must also comply with the Boat Safety Scheme (BSS) requirements before they can be used on most of the UK’s waterways. Look at the BSS web site for more information.

 

If a craft is being offered for sale without one of the five items you could have real problems if you buy it!

Builder’s Plate

Every new boat sold or first used in the EU since 16 June 1998 must have a builder’s plate. This plate has the maker’s details and technical information such as the design category, maximum loading weight and engine power. It must also include the CE mark.

Craft Identification Number (CIN)

The Craft Identification Number or Hull Identification Number (HIN) as it used to be called, is unique to that craft. It is a code that identifies not only the builder, but where and when the craft was built. It will look similar to the illustration below and is found in two places. One is found on or near the transom, starboard side, near the top. As most narrowboats do not have a transom as such, this means the number should be on the right hand side somewhere near the stern fender as you face forwards. The other is hidden as a security check. It should always be 14 alphanumeric characters in length, no more and no less. The “Model Year” must always be of equal or later date than the year of manufacture, never earlier. An example is given immediately below:

Owner’s Manual

New boats must have an owner’s manual. As all the required information is in the original owners manual, always ask to see it. You should also have the manuals for any equipment fitted for the same reasons. The owners manual must also contain an important legal document called a Declaration of Conformity. This document is issued and signed by the manufacturer, or his agent or the importer.

[IanD]

13 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Rugby Boats guidelines to buying a boat :

 

RCD Extract :

 

 

 

Anyone thinking of buying a completed boat, new or used, should look for these five items:

A builders plate with a
CE mark
A craft identification number (CIN) or hull identification mark (HIN)
An owner’s manual with a copy of :
A declaration of conformity.
Boats must also comply with the Boat Safety Scheme (BSS) requirements before they can be used on most of the UK’s waterways. Look at the BSS web site for more information.

 

If a craft is being offered for sale without one of the five items you could have real problems if you buy it!

Builder’s Plate

Every new boat sold or first used in the EU since 16 June 1998 must have a builder’s plate. This plate has the maker’s details and technical information such as the design category, maximum loading weight and engine power. It must also include the CE mark.

Craft Identification Number (CIN)

The Craft Identification Number or Hull Identification Number (HIN) as it used to be called, is unique to that craft. It is a code that identifies not only the builder, but where and when the craft was built. It will look similar to the illustration below and is found in two places. One is found on or near the transom, starboard side, near the top. As most narrowboats do not have a transom as such, this means the number should be on the right hand side somewhere near the stern fender as you face forwards. The other is hidden as a security check. It should always be 14 alphanumeric characters in length, no more and no less. The “Model Year” must always be of equal or later date than the year of manufacture, never earlier. An example is given immediately below:

Owner’s Manual

New boats must have an owner’s manual. As all the required information is in the original owners manual, always ask to see it. You should also have the manuals for any equipment fitted for the same reasons. The owners manual must also contain an important legal document called a Declaration of Conformity. This document is issued and signed by the manufacturer, or his agent or the importer.

 

I don't think that's added anything to the debate -- it's another "should have" explanation, repeating your warning of potential future problems, so nothing that hasn't been said many times already.

 

I don't think anyone would claim that there is zero chance of any problem selling a boat in future without an RCD. The discussion is about how likely this is to happen in practice on the canals and how likely a broker is to refuse to sell a boat without it, and the answer to both these questions seems to be "very small".

 

I wonder what the answer would be if somebody asked Rugby Boats "Will you sell my boat without an RCD?" -- with the implication that if the answer is "yes" it'll go to another broker who will?

 

That would show the reality of the situation, and my guess is their answer would be "We'll sell it without one" rather than lose a potential sale.

 

I note we still don't know which broker(s) on the canals won't sell without an RCD... 😉

Edited December 30, 2022 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

23 minutes ago, IanD said:

I wonder what the answer would be if somebody asked Rugby Boats "Will you sell my boat without an RCD?" -- with the implication that if the answer is "yes" it'll go to another broker who will?

 

Well, I have just spoken with Rugby boats and they say, as far as they are concerned currently the only paperwork that a boat legally requires, and cannot be sold without, is a BSS - which probably just goes to show how ill informed they are.

 

As members of the BMF he did say that they have been told that the BMF are currently reviewing what is needed as they (the BMF) have been led to understand that in fact legally a boat (that was built to the RCD) cannot be sold without the correct paperwork, certificates, owners manual etc. And in that case any boat that does not have them available will mean that a PCA will be needed.

 

No doubt we will hear more in the future.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[Momac]

5 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Well, I have just spoken with Rugby boats and they say, as far as they are concerned currently the only paperwork that a boat legally requires, and cannot be sold without, is a BSS - which probably just goes to show how ill informed they are.

Sounds like a brain fart from that particular person.

 

Boats not on C&RT or EA water do not require a BSS.  All boats that are coastal for example. 

 

My first boat was at Lowestoft when I bought it in 2008. 

It had its first BSS when it was trailered  by road to Lincoln.

Similarly a friend bought a boat in Brighton in 2014 and had it BSS tested when it was transported to Farndon.

 

 

 

[Alan de Enfield]

4 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Sounds like a brain fart from that particular person.

 

Boats not on C&RT or EA water do not require a BSS.  All boats that are coastal for example. 

 

My first boat was at Lowestoft when I bought it in 2008. 

It had its first BSS when it was trailered  by road to Lincoln.

Similarly a friend bought a boat in Brighton in 2014 and had it BSS tested when it was transported to Farndon.

 

 

 

 

 

Which made me doubt anything he said - but it was interesting that he said that the BMF were reviewing the situation in light of 'information'.

 

My 1st boat on the River Trent predated the BSS by many years.

(The BSS didn't even come into force until 1995).

[frahkn]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

 

 

 

I wonder what the answer would be if somebody asked Rugby Boats "Will you sell my boat without an RCD?" -- with the implication that if the answer is "yes" it'll go to another broker who will?

 

That would show the reality of the situation, and my guess is their answer would be "We'll sell it without one" rather than lose a potential sale.

 

😉

I would be annoyed if Rugby Boats refused to sell my boat for me because of inadequacies in its paperwork.

 

They had no problem with selling it to me! 

[Alan de Enfield]

2 minutes ago, frahkn said:

I would be annoyed if Rugby Boats refused to sell my boat for me because of inadequacies in its paperwork.

 

They had no problem with selling it to me! 

 

But rules can be changed or reinterpreted.

Better to wait and see what the BMF come up with after their investigations.

[Guest]

29 minutes ago, MartynG said:

Sounds like a brain fart from that particular person.

 

Boats not on C&RT or EA water do not require a BSS.  All boats that are coastal for example. 

 

My first boat was at Lowestoft when I bought it in 2008. 

It had its first BSS when it was trailered  by road to Lincoln.

Similarly a friend bought a boat in Brighton in 2014 and had it BSS tested when it was transported to Farndon.

 

 

 

 

I suspect what they meant was the type of boats they sell ie narrowboats and widebeams that are on CRT waterways or EA waters.

 

They don't dabble in the sale of coastal stuff.

[IanD]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But rules can be changed or reinterpreted.

Better to wait and see what the BMF come up with after their investigations.

Which will still only apply to their members -- and again there's a massive difference between a recommendation ("should") and a rule ("must"). And if the BMF make it a rule of membership, some may leave rather than follow it.

 

Nothing changed then. Change of it being a problem now or in the future, (very?) small but not zero... 😉

[Alan de Enfield]

1 minute ago, IanD said:

Which will still only apply to their members -- and again there's a massive difference between a recommendation ("should") and a rule ("must"). And if the BMF make it a rule of membership, some may leave rather than follow it.

 

 

But, which if does turn out to be a legal requirement, they will be leaders and others will be forced to comply or stop selling.

 

As I suggest - wait and see what the BMF come back with and their reasoning for their decision (whichever way it falls).

[IanD]

11 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

But, which if does turn out to be a legal requirement, they will be leaders and others will be forced to comply or stop selling.

 

As I suggest - wait and see what the BMF come back with and their reasoning for their decision (whichever way it falls).

It it's a BMF decision then it can't be a legal requirement, only one they can enforce on their members, and membership is not compulsory so non-BMF brokers can ignore it.

 

To be a legal requirement would need something to be passed into law, presumably by Parliament since IIRC it was you who pointed out that CART can't arbitrarily introduce binding new rules outside their current remit. Chances of Parliament spending any time on this -- less than zero...

 

My last statement stands, and I don't see you have posted any real argument against it -- the chances of this being a problem now or in the future for most boaters/brokers is small but not zero.

 

If people want to avoid boats without RCD to avoid this small chance then that's their decision. I expect most boaters and brokers will carry on ignoring the issue... 😉

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by IanD

[Alan de Enfield]

1 hour ago, IanD said:

It it's a BMF decision then it can't be a legal requirement, only one they can enforce on their members, and membership is not compulsory so non-BMF brokers can ignore it.

 

To be a legal requirement would need something to be passed into law, presumably by Parliament since IIRC it was you who pointed out that CART can't arbitrarily introduce binding new rules outside their current remit. Chances of Parliament spending any time on this -- less than zero...

 

My last statement stands, and I don't see you have posted any real argument against it -- the chances of this being a problem now or in the future for most boaters/brokers is small but not zero.

 

If people want to avoid boats without RCD to avoid this small chance then that's their decision. I expect most boaters and brokers will carry on ignoring the issue... 😉

 

 

 

I suggest that it is already law (it is stated within the RCD direcetive) the only question I see that gives any ambiguity is deciding if Brokers are part of the supply chain or not.

If they are, the law has not been correctly applied, but may now be applied.

If Brokers are not part of the supply chain then the law (may) have been correctly 'not applied'.

 

Maybe the BMF are talking with the authors of the "Blue Guide" or others involved in interpreting the laws.

 

Over to you for the last word .......................

[MtB]

5 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

I suggest that it is already law (it is stated within the RCD direcetive) the only question I see that gives any ambiguity is deciding if Brokers are part of the supply chain or not.

 

No need to decide, they are not. 

 

Brokers in the strict sense are agents for the owner, and as such are just speaking or writing as the public voice of the private owner and seller.

[Alan de Enfield]

36 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

No need to decide, they are not. 

 

Brokers in the strict sense are agents for the owner, and as such are just speaking or writing as the public voice of the private owner and seller.

 

 

 

You have decided they are not - on what evidence are you basing your decision ?

 

There is no option in the RCD for an 'Agent'

.

There are only 3 'Economic Operators' within the supply chain :

Manufacturer

Authorised Representative

Importer

Distributor

 

 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Alan de Enfield

[MtB]

3 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

There is no option in the RCD for an 'Agent'

.

There are only 3 'Economic Operators' within the supply chain :

Manufacturer

Authorised Representative

Importer

Distributor

 

 

We are discussing second hand boats Shirley.

 

 

They don't have manufacturers, authorised Representatives, importers or distributors

[Tacet]

6 hours ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

 

I suggest that it is already law (it is stated within the RCD direcetive) the only question I see that gives any ambiguity is deciding if Brokers are part of the supply chain or not.

If they are, the law has not been correctly applied, but may now be applied.

If Brokers are not part of the supply chain then the law (may) have been correctly 'not applied

Are we largely agreed that a private sale (i.e. not in the course of business activity and without a broker) largely falls outside the regulations?  If so, it would be a bit odd (but possible) if you could sell a boat today without a broker but not with its services.

44 minutes ago, MtB said:

 

Brokers in the strict sense are agents for the owner, and as such are just speaking or writing as the public voice of the private owner and seller.

Strictly speaking, brokers are not usually agents either.  Same as estate agents aren't.  An agent has the owner's authority to act on its behalf in, for example, concluding a sale.  Whereas a typical broker only introduces and facilitates.