Living Aboard - Mooring and a Land Hobby?

[Halkyon]

1 hour ago, BoatinglifeupNorth said:

And you sound with what you have written that you’ll fall into the widebeam boater category that I’ve talked about, not assumptions but just picking up on your posts.

 

Haha, alright. If I've come across as somebody who should be in a Barret home with "Live Laugh Love" plastered on the wall then I have not expressed myself very well!

 

If you see a weirdo lying under a Minor 1000 or old Honda not far from the K&A, with a big battery pack and little inverter MIG welder and swearing a lot, come and say hi.

Edited March 26 by Halkyon

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

43 minutes ago, ditchcrawler said:

O look another new member, lets make him feel welcome 

No, let him know what to expect, more and more people who have had the same idea about buying a widebeam and end up not moving much, nothing wrong with being honest to what you see, instead of seeing things through Youtube and Rose tinted glasses.

5 minutes ago, Halkyon said:

If you see a weirdo lying under a Minor 1000 or old Honda not far from the K&A, with a big battery pack and little inverter MIG welder and swearing a lot, come and say hi.

 You mean on the towpath 😂😂👍

[Halkyon]

Back on the topic of becoming a boater, I've been putting together a list of monthly costs.

 

Have I missed something obvious, are some estimates way off?

 

Income Insurance (if we need a loan for a big one): £80-130
CRT License: £112.50 (£1350 / 12)
Boat Insurance: £25-50 (£300-600 / 12)

Annual Boat Service: £33.33 (£400 / 12)
Diesel: £50-100
Solid Fuels: £50-100
Gas/LPG: £10-20
Generator Petrol: £30-60
Internet (4G 2x to 4x MIMO): £30-60
Human Groceries (two people): £200-400
Pet Food/Crap & Insurance (two cats): £50-90
Car Insurance, Tax & Petrol: ~£100 (here to trigger @BoatinglifeupNorth)

Contingency/Emergency/Saving: £500-£1000
 

Edited March 26 by Halkyon

[Alan de Enfield]

7 minutes ago, Halkyon said:

Back on the topic of becoming a boater, I've been putting together a list of monthly costs.

 

Have I missed something obvious, are some estimates way off?

 

Income Insurance: £80-130
CRT License: £112.50 (£1350 / 12)
Boat Insurance: £25-50 (£300-600 / 12)

Annual Boat Service: £33.33 (£400 / 12)
Diesel: £50-100
Solid Fuels: £50-100
Gas/LPG: £10-20
Generator Petrol: £30-60
Internet (4G 2x to 4x MIMO): £30-60
Human Groceries (two people): £200-400
Pet Food/Crap & Insurance (two cats): £50-90
Car Insurance, Tax & Petrol: ~£100 (here to trigger @BoatinglifeupNorth)

Contingency/Emergency/Saving: £500-£1000
 

 

 

 

 

What is income insurance ?

 

You have either missed out the cost of a mooring - or - understated the cost of a licence (remember that from April the cost of a CC licence has a premium on it, as does the cost of a boat wider than a NB).

 

Your LPG is a little high, but its a small amount anyway.

 

Clothing / treats (meals out) / car breakdown/repairs / etc etc

[Halkyon]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

What is income insurance ?

 

Added a little edit - if we have to take a loan for a big/expensive boat then I'd consider the protection if I was disabled/unemployed for a while.

[Lady M]

Your boat won't move far on £50 worth of diesel.

[Halkyon]

Just now, Lady M said:

Your boat won't move far on £50 worth of diesel.

 

What's a good estimate for a monthly cost there?

[Alan de Enfield]

Just now, Lady M said:

Your boat won't move far on £50 worth of diesel.

 

10-12 engine hours per month. (£2 per litre & 2 litres per hour)

 

Maybe planning to be a constant moorer - hence the generator to keep the batteries topped up.

 

[Lady M]

1-1 1/2 litres per hour.

[Lady M]

Sorry I read it as £50-100 per annum.

[Alan de Enfield]

6 minutes ago, Halkyon said:

 

What's a good estimate for a monthly cost there?

 

As a typical average you will need to run the engine for 4 hours per day and 8 hours at weekends (lets say 30+ hours per week)

 

30 hours at 1.5 litres / hour = 45 litres

45 litres at £2* per litre = £90 per WEEK / £180 per Month

 

** Fuel prices do vary and will depend on how you make your tax declaration.

Fuel prices will only increase.

Edited March 26 by Alan de Enfield

[Halkyon]

Seems like it might be smarter to run a small generator for the washing machine and such?

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, Halkyon said:

Seems like it might be smarter to run a small generator for the washing machine and such?

Yes, this will use a lot less fuel (probably less than half) than running your engine to charge batteries, as well as shorter running times (depending on generator and alternator size).

[Halkyon]

Doesn't seem like I've missed too much so far.

 

I wonder if an admin could rename my topic to something like "Living Aboard - one rusty car and two cats". 😆

[IanD]

32 minutes ago, IanD said:

Yes, this will use a lot less fuel (probably less than half) than running your engine to charge batteries, as well as shorter running times (depending on generator and alternator size).

For domestic loads with relatively high peak power but lower average power (e.g. washing machine) it's better to have a battery bank and inverter big enough to run them, to avoid having to run the generator for long periods (noise, wear, fuel consumption). See here for an explanation why:

 

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Technical-Information-Achieving-the-impossible-EN.pdf

 

For example a full wash/dry cycle on my washer/drier consumes about 3kWh, peak load is getting on for 3kW but average over the cycle is well under 1kW. To support this with a generator only you'd need to run a 3kW generator for something like 4 hours while the washer/drier is running (so can't be after 8pm), at an average load of maybe 25%. Or you could run the washer from a 3kW inverter (with big enough battery bank) and only need to run the generator for about an hour whenever its convenient to put the energy back.

 

If you're going to have domestic appliances like this on board which consume significant power, LFP batteries instead of LA would be much better (and avoid long generator running times to get to full charge) -- but you have to sort out how they're managed, you can't really just "drop them in" especially if you have an alternator charging them -- see many other threads on the subject... 😉 

 

Edited March 26 by IanD

[Halkyon]

Time to look at crashed electric cars on eBay to steal myself some batteries!

Edited March 26 by Halkyon

[Alan de Enfield]

3 minutes ago, Halkyon said:

Time to look at crashed electric cars on eBay to steal myself some batteries!

 

Yup - those ones that burst into flames ?

 

Lithium Boat batteries tend to be a different chemistry to most EV batteries.

[Halkyon]

1 minute ago, Alan de Enfield said:

Yup - those ones that burst into flames ?

 

Lithium Boat batteries tend to be a different chemistry to most EV batteries.

 

I don't really fancy the job of inspecting and testing each cell, it's true. Something else to research...

Edited March 26 by Halkyon

[IanD]

2 minutes ago, Halkyon said:

 

I don't really fancy the job of inspecting and testing each cell, it's true. Something else to research...

Plenty of sources nowadays for new LFP batteries suitable for boats, for example here:

 

https://www.fogstar.co.uk/collections/lithium-leisure-battery

 

Or you can DIY with cells and BMS which is a lot more work and needs a lot more understanding, and is generally not recommended for those new to the field.

 

I wouldn't even *think* about re-using ex-EV batteries, almost all of them use chemistries like NMC (not LFP, which is safe) which are a serious fire hazard and will very likely mean you can't get insurance cover.

[LadyG]

I pay £1 per litre for my diesel from a boatyard, it can be £1.25 at a marina,

Alllow  300 to 500 engine hours at 1l per hour,

£300 to £625 per annum

Servicing £500 per annum

Blacking and painting £500 pa

I buy two x 13kg gas per annum, I don't use the oven much.

£90 pa

Coal and logs delivered ( Excell is £16.50 per 25kg sack). Kindling and firelighters £25pa 

£650 Pa

I bought new agm batteries four years ago, they don't need topping up, and I never let them go down, of course I have very small power requirement.

I dont use my washing machine, i wash socks by hand and a launderette for everything else. It's the drying that is the problem.

 

Food costs etc come under personal expenses you have them anyway, what you are interested in is the extra cost of boat owning.

You can live frugally, no nights out, no subscriptions,  but long term we all spend just a bit less than we earn, thats human nature.

The personal insurance cover could be eye-watering, and usually does not kick in for a few months, most people self insure, save hard, save for insurance, save for licencing as you have the interest plus you get an early payment discount. You will need lumps of money from time to time.

You can get 8% in small savings accounts, and 5% in larger savings accounts. Always have two bank accounts, the Nationwide is not a bank, but it behaves like one ,  it sometimes gives you cash, just for being loyal!

Use Martin's money-saving site for tips.

My tip is not to use aps, they are the spawn of the devil, unless you get a bonus discount for using them, take it, then delete it!

 

 

Edited March 26 by LadyG

[Halkyon]

5 minutes ago, IanD said:

Plenty of sources nowadays for new LFP batteries suitable for boats, for example here:

 

https://www.fogstar.co.uk/collections/lithium-leisure-battery

 

Or you can DIY with cells and BMS which is a lot more work and needs a lot more understanding, and is generally not recommended for those new to the field.

 

I wouldn't even *think* about re-using ex-EV batteries, almost all of them use chemistries like NMC (not LFP, which is safe) which are a serious fire hazard and will very likely mean you can't get insurance cover.

 

Gotcha. I thought I read that LFP was being used in some cheaper EVs now, could be wrong though. Out of the box boat batteries are probably worth the little extra investment.

[Alan de Enfield]

12 minutes ago, LadyG said:

The insurance cover could be eye-watering, and usually does not kick in for a few months, most people self insure,

 

 

Before they will issue your licence, do C&RT check your bank account and savings and then accept that you are 'self-insuring'

[IanD]

30 minutes ago, Halkyon said:

 

Gotcha. I thought I read that LFP was being used in some cheaper EVs now, could be wrong though. Out of the box boat batteries are probably worth the little extra investment.

You're right, LFP is *starting* to be used in some cheaper EVs now -- but >99% of the secondhand EV batteries/cells on the market are NMC (uninsurable fire hazard) not LFP (safe).

 

*If* you can find known-good ex-EV LFPs -- with BMS and protection, and you can put everything together and debug it -- then this will probably be cheaper than buying new LFP batteries.

 

For most people this is too much effort/risk, buying new LFPs which are guaranteed to work -- either off-the shelf "drop-in LFP" (like Fogstar) or a DIY cell/BMS (from new components) -- is the preferred solution.

 

Beware that there are lots of cheap LFP cells (and "drop-in" batteries) on the market which are basically factory rejects being sold as "Grade A" -- always use a reputable supplier, not an unknown direct-from-China one. Remember that if the price looks too good to be true, it probably is... 😉 

Edited March 26 by IanD

[ditchcrawler]

1 hour ago, Lady M said:

Sorry I read it as £50-100 per annum.

I did first time, £100 shouldn't be far out

[BoatinglifeupNorth]

1 hour ago, Halkyon said:

 

Gotcha. I thought I read that LFP was being used in some cheaper EVs now, could be wrong though. Out of the box boat batteries are probably worth the little extra investment.

I wouldn’t get too worried about buying batteries and generators, there are widebeams out there with sufficient batteries, generators and enough solar for things to work and to suit your needs if you look. Look for a boat that you can use, not one you have to spend £1000’s on straight away. You need to enjoy it from the start, not turn it into a building site day one.