BMC 1500D rebuild including engine oil analysis.

[TNLI]

 

 

I have no idea what oil was used, although it looks OK for a cheap dinosaur oil. The detergent and anti wear additives are around half what they should be, so it is definitely not a good major brand oil, and rather black and nasty before I changed it after most of the rebuild had been done by the previous owner. Very pleased it does not show any coolant or fuel contamination. The high lead is normal when the main bearings have been changed, although the low Zinc based anti wear additives figure would not help in that respect. In fact the previous oil looks like one for a DPF diesel, as they have low Zinc levels. 

 

The oil was changed for Liqui Moly Super Nova 20w50 and I hope to start running the old restored donkey again later next week. 

Edited March 5, 2022 by buccaneer66
OP request

[Tracy D'arth]

Can't wait.  Yawn. Will you go away then Molly?

[TNLI]

12H2540 MARINE CRANKSHAFT - Charnleys Tractor Parts

 

Any opinions, as I'm thinking of buying one if the present one is cracked and a furnace welding job is too expensive ??

 

Also anyone found a good source for a soluble vibration damper if that looks like it belongs in the bin, apart from a tour of the scrap yards ??

[TNLI]

On 26/02/2022 at 00:15, TNLI said:

BMC 1500D-220120 public version.pdf 39.33 kB · 18 downloads

 

I have no idea what oil was used, although it looks OK for a cheap dinosaur oil. The detergent and anti wear additives are around half what they should be, so it is definitely not a good major brand oil, and rather black and nasty before I changed it after most of the rebuild had been done by the previous owner. Very pleased it does not show any coolant or fuel contamination. The high lead is normal when the main bearings have been changed, although the low Zinc based anti wear additives figure would not help in that respect. In fact the previous oil looks like one for a DPF diesel, as they have low Zinc levels. 

 

The oil was changed for Liqui Moly Super Nova 20w50 and I hope to start running the old restored donkey again later next week. 

 

Just to correct one part of that comment, the engine I purchased had only had its top end rebuilt, before being sold. I did get receipts for the main bearings and timing chain, BUT the seller did not list anything sensible in terms of how the crank and main bearings were done, so that result which shows a high level of Lead got me rather interested, BUT I know that running an old engine can produce odd UOA results for the first oil change in particular. 

  The engine bottom end job is being done by a good local company that specialise in crankshaft inspections, and guess what, the bearings might well have been changed but the crank itself was out of limits and is being reground at present, hence the high Pb figure. So the positive comments from the oil analyst are not really warranted!

 

A lot of BMC 1500's seem to have issues with fuel contamination from old HP or lift pump seals, I did fit a new lift pump, BUT the old one will be saved as an emergency spare for anyone that needs it, as the fuel contamination figure is below the detectable level. The head gasket also looks OK as the report does not show any water or anti freeze contamination.

 

 

Edited March 5, 2022 by TNLI

[Tony Brooks]

Once again A LOT OF BMC 1.5s do NOT have issues with oil contamination by fuel. Some do however and   seeing how many are in service and their age it is hardly surprising. It is something owners need to be aware of in carry out routine checks. Exactly the same applies to the Perkins 4-10x range of engines and the diesel version of the Ford push rod engine. They all use similar lift pumps and injection pumps. I would suggest that the small air cooled Listers have a far higher proportion of dilution problems compared to BMCs or almost any other engine.

[TNLI]

6 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Once again A LOT OF BMC 1.5s do NOT have issues with oil contamination by fuel. Some do however and   seeing how many are in service and their age it is hardly surprising. It is something owners need to be aware of in carry out routine checks. Exactly the same applies to the Perkins 4-10x range of engines and the diesel version of the Ford push rod engine. They all use similar lift pumps and injection pumps. I would suggest that the small air cooled Listers have a far higher proportion of dilution problems compared to BMCs or almost any other engine.

Thanks, so listing the BMC 1500 as having a fuel contamination issue, as I've seen in a few documents is in reality is not correct. The engineer for the crank shaft company, also said he had not heard of a crank failure either, but I will ask the inspector next week, as he is more directly involved with crankshafts. 

Edited March 5, 2022 by TNLI

[Tracy D'arth]

In 40 years plus of dealing with BMC engines, from 850 petrol to 2500 diesels I have seen a few petrol engines where the lift pumps have leaked fuel into the sump, an odd diesel, but I have seen only one diesel where the injection pump has leaked into the sump.

This does not include the last 10 years during which the fuel companies have been adulterating the diesel fuel which is reportedly the cause of seal failure in DPA pumps.

[TNLI]

1 hour ago, Tracy D'arth said:

In 40 years plus of dealing with BMC engines, from 850 petrol to 2500 diesels I have seen a few petrol engines where the lift pumps have leaked fuel into the sump, an odd diesel, but I have seen only one diesel where the injection pump has leaked into the sump.

This does not include the last 10 years during which the fuel companies have been adulterating the diesel fuel which is reportedly the cause of seal failure in DPA pumps.

You might be thinking of fuel contamination in terms of increasing oil volume, smell, or obviously thinner oil. More than 2% is of interest in terms of additional long term wear, but the real wear issues start at around 5%. I seem to recall you can start to smell fuel it above 5%. The worst offenders in diesel cars were the old DPF afflicted diesels, with owners asking why the oil level was rising in some cases, In UOA results that was often around 10%.

 

Nice to see below the lower limit fuel in the previous owners oil, even if the Lead figure looked bad. The comments from the lab were a bit off, although I also thought it might be due to the rebuild, although thinking about it, the Iron figure which tracks the engine hours, was fairly normal. If I had seen a figure over 5 from a 200 hr OCI, I would be interested, so 16 is not good at all.

  If you can get a rough set of averages for the engine type, then that is the real comparison, although driver style and trip length needs to be similar if you only have one report. 

   

 

BMC 1500D Previous owners oil..pdf

Edited March 5, 2022 by TNLI

[TNLI]

Can't seem to find a post that mentioned oil seal leaks, but as this thread is about cranks and oil, I will reply here.

Firstly a lot of owners of old or high time diesels seem to think a few oil drips or a minor leak is normal. Well, I think that is definitely not correct, although even more modern diesels can be drippers. 

  One of the common reasons is not just high hours, but crevice corrosion that occurs where the oil around the seal meets the outside air, or salt water drip, (Bad news to have salt water drip on an engine), as the crevice corrosion then wears the seal out. Obviously old age does make the corrosion worse, even if the engine is in storage, unless the outside is greased up. 

  If the seal is changed but the shaft is not cleaned up or resurfaced, although the drip rate might reduce, the problem will start again. So I've seen failed seals with good shafts, and good seals with bad corroded shafts. 

  Which oil you are using does have an effect in terms of its viscosity, as thicker is better, and the seal conditioner additives in the oil. It is also a good idea in preventative maintenance or cleaning terms to oil the outside of each seal to displace or prevent water ingress. 

  Be careful spraying any type of degreaser onto the engine areas where it might effect an oil seal, as it dissolves the oil, and damages the seal in a few rare cases, as it tends to make things worse unless the seal is oiled or greased up.

  Oddly enough not many BMC fans are posting about oil leaks, so I think it might be good in that respect.

 

PS: How common is it to find a BMC with an oil pump that is out of limits in wear terms ?? 

Edited March 6, 2022 by TNLI

[Tony Brooks]

5 minutes ago, TNLI said:

PS: How common is it to find a BMC with an oil pump that is out of limits in wear terms ?? 

 

I never have, and only rarely on a whole range of vehicles in garages. I have received reports that the modern Listers with hydraulic valve lifters are prone low oil pressure problems but not in any great number. I suspect caused by infrequent oil changes.

 

From my experience all B series (petrol and diesel) tend to jamb their oil pressure relief valve open more than those designs that use a ball, but again most engines will never have it happen. That could well be diagnosed as a worn oil pump by anyone after a fast buck or with a lack of experience.

 

In any case once you get to know the characteristics of your own engine you should detect a lower than once hot idle oil pressure long before any damage is down.

[john.k]

The worst cam wear Ive seen on working engines was a 4 cyl John Deere.....the oil pressure relief valve spring had broken,and some genius had simply stretched it out until it looked right .......lack of oil had worn the cam and lifters massively...so much that you could feel air blown back out the intake.

[Tracy D'arth]

I had a 1949 series 1 Land Rover where one exhaust cam on the 1600 engine had worn away to the extent that with any tappet clearance it never opened the valve at all.

It used to start on 3 cylinders and come onto 4 when warm.

It ran fine, doing 50mph easily.

[TNLI]

All the posts above are interesting, and I have not seen a genuine failed oil pump. I have seen one that failed as the result of the intake screen being badly damaged. A small piece of the screen was sucked into the pump. The screen damaged was probably caused when the engine was lifted up with the sump off tand then lowered incorrectly resulting in the engine being lowered right down onto the crank case cover that had been left in the engine bay. The chap that was responsible did not then admit he had damaged the oil pump, and so the block was assembled correctly. Alas the low oil pressure resulted in a partial seizure. The lower end (Including the mains, was OK, but the rings were not.

 

I

[TNLI]

17 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

 

I never have, and only rarely on a whole range of vehicles in garages. I have received reports that the modern Listers with hydraulic valve lifters are prone low oil pressure problems but not in any great number. I suspect caused by infrequent oil changes.

 

From my experience all B series (petrol and diesel) tend to jamb their oil pressure relief valve open more than those designs that use a ball, but again most engines will never have it happen. That could well be diagnosed as a worn oil pump by anyone after a fast buck or with a lack of experience.

 

In any case once you get to know the characteristics of your own engine you should detect a lower than once hot idle oil pressure long before any damage is down.

 

I've fitted a conversion kit for spin on filters, and I will be using Bosch P 3033 spin on filters. Fairly certain those oil filters have their own built in relief valve, BUT if the one in the engine wears out or fails, (Never heard of one failing), it will not matter. Oddly enough I like canister tpe oil filter units, BUT not if the relief valve is the relief valve is fitted in such a way that it is easy to access. If it is not easy to check or replace, then that's not good if the engine is a very old one with a lot of corrosion, due to the risk if it sticking. 

[Tony Brooks]

5 hours ago, TNLI said:

 

I've fitted a conversion kit for spin on filters, and I will be using Bosch P 3033 spin on filters. Fairly certain those oil filters have their own built in relief valve, BUT if the one in the engine wears out or fails, (Never heard of one failing), it will not matter. Oddly enough I like canister tpe oil filter units, BUT not if the relief valve is the relief valve is fitted in such a way that it is easy to access. If it is not easy to check or replace, then that's not good if the engine is a very old one with a lot of corrosion, due to the risk if it sticking. 

 

I very much doubt they do. They should have their own inbuilt anti-drain down valve but if designed to always be mounted vertically and hanging down it may not need one. It will also have an internal bypass valve so if the filter clogs unfiltered oil is still supplied to the engine. The 1.5 oil pressure relief valve is under a big hexagon on the side of the block neat the oil pressure sender. It is part of the engine, not the  filter.

[Tracy D'arth]

6 hours ago, TNLI said:

 

I've fitted a conversion kit for spin on filters, and I will be using Bosch P 3033 spin on filters. Fairly certain those oil filters have their own built in relief valve, BUT if the one in the engine wears out or fails, (Never heard of one failing), it will not matter. Oddly enough I like canister tpe oil filter units, BUT not if the relief valve is the relief valve is fitted in such a way that it is easy to access. If it is not easy to check or replace, then that's not good if the engine is a very old one with a lot of corrosion, due to the risk if it sticking. 

You are confusing the oil pressure release valve in the engine which limits the gallery oil pressure with the filter bypass valve which is in the filter and opens when/if the filter gets so blocked as to severely reduce the pressure in the engine oilways.

Filters that are orientated so that they drain i.e. not hanging vertically down, should also have an anti drain back flap valve  to prevent them emptying and causing a period of low oil pressure when starting up.

[Tony Brooks]

16 minutes ago, Tracy D'arth said:

Filters that are orientated so that they drain i.e. not hanging vertically down, should also have an anti drain back flap valve  to prevent them emptying and causing a period of low oil pressure when starting up.

 

And I suspect virtually all spin on filters will have an anti-drain down valve because so many applications mount oil filters horizontally and making a few "specials" for engines that do not need such a feature would not e economic.

[john.k]

Back when I was a wee lad,I was mechanic for a coach business....not stage coaches,but coaches powered by GM V71s and V92s.......anyhoo,I used to drop the oil  over a pit,then I would drive  across the yard with no oil ,and fill them up with oil at the oil tank.......did it for a couple of years,until one of the drivers ratted me out to the manager.....he was definitely first man on the moon............no evidence that running without oil in the sump caused any dramas.

[Iain_S]

10 hours ago, john.k said:

Back when I was a wee lad,I was mechanic for a coach business....not stage coaches,but coaches powered by GM V71s and V92s.......anyhoo,I used to drop the oil  over a pit,then I would drive  across the yard with no oil ,and fill them up with oil at the oil tank.......did it for a couple of years,until one of the drivers ratted me out to the manager.....he was definitely first man on the moon............no evidence that running without oil in the sump caused any dramas.

Many years ago, Molyslip did an experiment with a couple of Ford Escorts. Both had their oil changed. One had Molyslip added to its oil, and both were run for a100 miles or so, the oil was drained from their sumps, and they continued running. The one without Molyslip reportedly managed 14 miles before engine failure, and the Molyslipped one was still going several hours later. 

[Tracy D'arth]

6 minutes ago, Iain_S said:

Many years ago, Molyslip did an experiment with a couple of Ford Escorts. Both had their oil changed. One had Molyslip added to its oil, and both were run for a100 miles or so, the oil was drained from their sumps, and they continued running. The one without Molyslip reportedly managed 14 miles before engine failure, and the Molyslipped one was still going several hours later. 

If Liquid Molly had done it,  would be running still and winning races!

[TNLI]

On 07/03/2022 at 09:41, Tony Brooks said:

 

And I suspect virtually all spin on filters will have an anti-drain down valve because so many applications mount oil filters horizontally and making a few "specials" for engines that do not need such a feature would not be economic.

Thanks Tony, ASAP and one Fleabay dealer are selling spin on conversion kits for oil filters using the Bosch filter, I would be very surprised if they are selling a kit and filter that did not use the correct type of oil filter in terms of drain back flap or built in over pressure valve. I'm not going to use any filter other than the one supplied, as it might have a different.

 

  I did see the consequences of a stuck over pressure valve in a Detroit 350 diesel, (2 stroke with exhaust vales, and Garrett turbo, fairly common in big 18 wheeler trucks and sports or commercial fishing boats), when a cold start split the rim of the far Eastern oil filter, making one heck of a mess. That engine holds around 30 litres of HDEO, and rough guess is that we had at least 10 litres of cold oil in the bilges. No real damage done. Stunned silence from all of those around the boat, followed by one of the deck hands asking if anyone had a real big mop. I told him to forget the mop and go and buy 2 sacks of sawdust. Took us about an hour to clean up the bilges.

  I was not sure why the filter had split, as the engine service manual was not in the boat for some reason, so I did ask a local truck engine expert to check the engine out before we started. He had a weird oil pressure and flow rate rig that screwed into the oil filter port, after we fired up the diesel, he waited until the oil warmed up and said all was well, so we then fitted a new oil filter and left port.

[Tony Brooks]

1 hour ago, TNLI said:

Thanks Tony, ASAP and one Fleabay dealer are selling spin on conversion kits for oil filters using the Bosch filter, I would be very surprised if they are selling a kit and filter that did not use the correct type of oil filter in terms of drain back flap or built in over pressure valve. I'm not going to use any filter other than the one supplied, as it might have a different.

 

  I did see the consequences of a stuck over pressure valve in a Detroit 350 diesel, (2 stroke with exhaust vales, and Garrett turbo, fairly common in big 18 wheeler trucks and sports or commercial fishing boats), when a cold start split the rim of the far Eastern oil filter, making one heck of a mess. That engine holds around 30 litres of HDEO, and rough guess is that we had at least 10 litres of cold oil in the bilges. No real damage done. Stunned silence from all of those around the boat, followed by one of the deck hands asking if anyone had a real big mop. I told him to forget the mop and go and buy 2 sacks of sawdust. Took us about an hour to clean up the bilges.

  I was not sure why the filter had split, as the engine service manual was not in the boat for some reason, so I did ask a local truck engine expert to check the engine out before we started. He had a weird oil pressure and flow rate rig that screwed into the oil filter port, after we fired up the diesel, he waited until the oil warmed up and said all was well, so we then fitted a new oil filter and left port.

 

Once again you refer to a filter having an "over pressure valve" and again as Tracy and myself have both told you oil filters do not have an "over pressure valve". Engines do and in the UK we call them oil pressure relief valves.

 

Spin on oil filters have a "pressure differential valve" that opens when the filter clogs. Although one of those fling to open might cause the filter case to split under pressure the more usual cause is idiots either over packing or stretching the oil pressure relief valve spring. Normally an oil pressure relief valve will jamb open because the oil pressure will become higher than the spring pressure so it forces the valve open, where the valve jambs.

 

 

[TNLI]

Changing tack slightly, my crank shaft is still in the queue, but when it has been reground I will need to confirm which parts that can't be accessed from above should be removed, so a possible list:

 

Oil pump clean and wear check 

Oil pressure relief valve clean and check.

Timing chain change if not new, although in warranty terms it might have to be changed anyway.

I think Tony mentioned a sprocket bearing or something, which I presume is on the timing belt.

The main bearings and oil seals will be changed when the crank is fitted.

 

Must have missed something ?? Ah yes, place the big magnet in the sump.

[Tony Brooks]

The oil pressure relief valve and the injection pump drive  skew gears can all be accessed with the engine in the boat apart from the oil pump providing you have the space in front of the engine to draw the camshaft. I am assuming you are talking about the pump skew gears when you say sprocket.

 

You can't access the cam shaft bearings but they rarely wear out.

[Tracy D'arth]

3 hours ago, TNLI said:

Changing tack slightly, my crank shaft is still in the queue, but when it has been reground I will need to confirm which parts that can't be accessed from above should be removed, so a possible list:

 

Oil pump clean and wear check 

Oil pressure relief valve clean and check.

Timing chain change if not new, although in warranty terms it might have to be changed anyway.

I think Tony mentioned a sprocket bearing or something, which I presume is on the timing belt.

The main bearings and oil seals will be changed when the crank is fitted.

 

Must have missed something ?? Ah yes, place the big magnet in the sump.

Timing chain slipper and tensioner along with the sprockets. What about the big ends? If the crank is reground you will need undersize ones. Oil slinger?

There is no belt.

Best place for a magnet is around the oil filter can, not in the sump.