gas pipework

[jahredd2004]

Could somebody please tell me if it is ok to use metric gas pipes as opposed to imperial ones . i am a corgi registered fitter but i am not familiar with canal boat regs....currently the installation on my friends boat consists of 15mm from the gas cylinder to the gas hob and oven. where it reduces to two 8mm feeds for the hob and oven at the same point the 15mm supply drops to 10 mm to run a further 8/9 foot and feed the boiler which is used in conjunction with a water storage tank found under the main bed space..... two people on nearby boats have told me it should all be in imperial using sizes from 1/2 1/4 3/8 5/16.........................an inspector originally came and never mentioned any problems with the pipes being metric but recommende we move the cykinder storage cupbord to the other end of the boat..........

 

i hope somebody can help me and my explanation is not too confusing ...thanx in advance bye

[blackrose]

As far as I know it's ok to use metric, as long as the correct fittings are used in conjunction of course, and that you use coils of "refrigeration quality" soft copper pipe, not lengths of rigid pipe. It needs to be supported every 300mm and closer to joints, I think I might be within 50mm but you'll need to check that.

Edited September 23, 2007 by blackrose

[jahredd2004]

cheers mate

As far as I know it's ok to use metric, as long as the correct fittings are used in conjunction of course, and that you use coils of "refrigeration quality" soft copper pipe, not lengths of rigid pipe. It needs to be supported every 300mm and closer to joints, I think I might be within 50mm but you'll need to check that.

[Wet Weekend]

I'm not an accredited expert but my research suggests metric is fine. BSS only says 'seamless copper tube'.

The tubing as supplied by www.bes.co.uk is available in all metric sizes and ' Suitable for water and gas installations. '

Incidentally, the same grade (Table W, Annealed (BS EN 1057 Soft). Kitemarked. ) is available from Scewfix in 8mm and 10mm.

 

Also, Calor Marine supply regulators with metric outlets (although just about everything else on their site is imperial) and the Alde Bubble Tester is available with metric compression fittings, so all in all it looks to me as if metric is OK.

[bottle]

Jahredd

 

Please remeber you are dealing with LPG (believe there is a qualification) but in the mean time, have a look here.

 

Boat safety scheme. LPG Installations. it is a PDF document but gives what is required.

[blackrose]

Also I think some people make the mistake of using fittings with brass olives when they should be copper.

[jahredd2004]

thanks all for the help..........................it was the fact that the calor marine shop stocks all imperial stuff that was throwing me cheers againI FOUND THIS ON THE CALOR MARINE SITE ... "Do it yourself" installation is not encouraged. The installation of a gas system on the private vessel is not covered by the Gas Safety (Installations and Use) Regulations 1998. However, you have to take "responsible care for the health and safety of yourself and other persons who may be affected by your acts or omissions at work" under the Heath and Safety at Work Act 1974.This means that you do not have to have the professional qualifications of a C.O.R.G.I. engineer, but you do need to do the job in a "workman like manner", so you will need to have read a copy of EN ISO 10239 and BS5482 pt3 as well as the references listed within. If you wish to do the installation yourself, then get it checked by a C.O.R.G.I. registered and "Competent" engineer who can issue a gas safety certificate. Your insurance company may insist upon it .If your vessel is:1. "hired out in the course of a business" 2. "made available to members of the public in the course of a business carried out from that vessel" OR 3. "used primarily for domestic or residential purposes" then you have a legal requirement under the Gas Safety (Installations and Use) Regulations 1998 to use a C.O.R.G.I. engineer.

[ChrisPy]

the main problem with using 10mm minibore copper tube commonly available in DIY outlets is that the wall thickness is 0.7mm but the ISO standard requires minimum 0.8mm. I think you can buy the thicker tube at BES.

[John Orentas]

Also I think some people make the mistake of using fittings with brass olives when they should be copper.

 

 

This one has come up every week or so for the last four years. The book says "Copper or copper alloy sleeves" brass is a copper alloy..

 

It is unwise for anyone to embark on gas installation or modification without having the current Red Book to hand, apart from anything else it may cost a lot of money when you get it wrong.

[blackrose]

This one has come up every week or so for the last four years. The book says "Copper or copper alloy sleeves" brass is a copper alloy..

 

Yes, I've just seen that. Well I can't argue with the book.

[stuart]

And no soldering !

[1066]

And no soldering !

 

 

Spoilsport

[Wet Weekend]

the main problem with using 10mm minibore copper tube commonly available in DIY outlets is that the wall thickness is 0.7mm but the ISO standard requires minimum 0.8mm. I think you can buy the thicker tube at BES.

 

That's an interesting point, Chris.

To ensure a min. wall thickness of 0.8mm I think the pipe may need to be EN1057 Type (or Table) Y.

I can't find find 8mm or 10mm 'Type Y' pipe on the bes site, only 15mm and 22mm. Type W is available in more sizes and sold as suitable for gas but the wall thickness is generally 0.7mm, or even 0.6mm.

 

Now, the commonly used imperial sizes are quoted as being 20 gauge copper, which is nominally 0.8mm I think, so notwithstanding the traditionalists who may prefer to stay with imperial measures perhaps they are more widely used because they comply with the ISO standard and the metric pipe doesn't? That seems strange doesn't it? But then again, like the RCD, trying to get to the bottom of reconciling recommendations and legislation is sometimes like a game of Chinese Whispers. Why is life so complicated?

[smileypete]

This one has come up every week or so for the last four years. The book says "Copper or copper alloy sleeves" brass is a copper alloy..

 

It is unwise for anyone to embark on gas installation or modification without having the current Red Book to hand, apart from anything else it may cost a lot of money when you get it wrong.

What is the Red Book? Is it specifically for boats?

 

The Calor Marine web site says:

 

All joints and unions should be of the compression type not soldered

Soldered joint at risk from electrolytic corrosion, vibration induced failure and melting in the event of excessive heat or fire.

 

Olives in compression joints should be made of soft copper

Copper olives are softer than brass and produce a better seal. Brass can harden in use. The different expansion / contraction rates can lead to pulled and leaking joints.

 

Lots more useful advice there too.

 

I always use copper olives for plumbing, lets you 'feel' better what's going on when doing up a union (IMHO )

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited September 24, 2007 by smileypete

[blackrose]

What is the Red Book? Is it specifically for boats?

The BSS Essential Guide. Yes, it's specifically for boats and if you ask nicely they'll send you a copy.

http://www.boatsafetyscheme.com/site/2nded...alGuide_212.asp

 

The Calor Marine web site says:

 

All joints and unions should be of the compression type not soldered

Soldered joint at risk from electrolytic corrosion, vibration induced failure and melting in the event of excessive heat or fire.

 

Olives in compression joints should be made of soft copper

Copper olives are softer than brass and produce a better seal. Brass can harden in use. The different expansion / contraction rates can lead to pulled and leaking joints.

That's what I thought too. Althought brass is an alloy of copper I'm not sure the authors of the guide had brass in mind when they wrote that copper alloy olives were ok. We may be taking it too literally.

Edited September 24, 2007 by blackrose

[bottle]

The BSS Essential Guide. Yes, it's specifically for boats and if you ask nicely they'll send you a copy.

http://www.boatsafetyscheme.com/site/2nded...alGuide_212.asp

 

 

That's what I thought too. Althought brass is an alloy of copper I'm not sure the authors of the guide had brass in mind when they wrote that copper alloy olives were ok. We may be taking it too literally.

 

Hi

 

Further to Blackroses link, you can download each section as a PDF from that page, this is the 2nd Edition 2005 for private boats (latest), if you want the commercial/hire boat one dated 2002 go to bottom of page.

 

ps. some sections are quite large so broadband advised.

[Chris Lingwood]

3. "used primarily for domestic or residential purposes" then you have a legal requirement under the Gas Safety (Installations and Use) Regulations 1998 to use a C.O.R.G.I. engineer.

 

Iiiinteresting! I was going to fit my new gas system myself then get the qualified gas man down to commission it and make sure its not going to kill me. Sounds like I can't do that seeing as I live aboard.

 

Is solid pipe really a problem? It would make my installation much neater and I have several 90 degree bends.

Edited September 24, 2007 by Chris Lingwood

[smileypete]

The BSS Essential Guide. Yes, it's specifically for boats and if you ask nicely they'll send you a copy.

http://www.boatsafetyscheme.com/site/2nded...alGuide_212.asp

Ah I see, I wondered if 'Red Book' was some CORGI publication.

 

I couldn't find the bit about copper alloy sleeves/olives though (PDF search didn't work for some reason). Can anyone point me to the relevant para.?

 

That's what I thought too. Althought brass is an alloy of copper I'm not sure the authors of the guide had brass in mind when they wrote that copper alloy olives were ok. We may be taking it too literally.

Bronze is a copper alloy too, so in theory would a bronze sleeve/olive be acceptable? I'd have thought not.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited September 24, 2007 by smileypete

[blackrose]

Is solid pipe really a problem? It would make my installation much neater and I have several 90 degree bends.

Although a neat installation is good, I'm not sure if neatness is of paramount importance to the BSS inspector.

 

Ah I see, I wondered if 'Red Book' was some CORGI publication.I couldn't find the bit about copper alloy sleeves/olives though (PDF search didn't work for some reason). Can anyone point me to the relevant para.?

I think both John and myself are looking at our older hardcopies. This PDF looks more recent and I can't find it either. Edited September 24, 2007 by blackrose

[Alastair]

Two things worth remembering:

You must keep the number of joints down to a minimum - 'excessive' numbers of connections are not allowed (and it is up to the inspector to decide what is 'excessive')

 

There must be a means of testing the soundness of the system. A bubble tester is the best, and inspectors like them as it means they don't have to use a manometer.

[Chris Lingwood]

Two things worth remembering:

You must keep the number of joints down to a minimum - 'excessive' numbers of connections are not allowed (and it is up to the inspector to decide what is 'excessive')

 

There must be a means of testing the soundness of the system. A bubble tester is the best, and inspectors like them as it means they don't have to use a manometer.

 

hmm my new route would have quite a few, but it means i get to avoid all the electrical wires and water pipes, which in my book is a bloody good idea! Maybe 7 right angles would be needed. I'll probably get the gas guy in to give me a hand anyway. Saves doing it and being told its not up to scratch.

[Alastair]

7 right angles is quite a lot. I recommend contacting your selected BSS inspector and asking him before you get the work done. Just because someone is Corgi reg doesn't mean they know how to keep the inspector happy.

 

Why worry about having your gas pipe near your electrical wires? Wrap the wires in spiral conduit, it will be fine.

[John Orentas]

7 right angles is quite a lot. I recommend contacting your selected BSS inspector and asking him before you get the work done. Just because someone is Corgi reg doesn't mean they know how to keep the inspector happy.

 

Why worry about having your gas pipe near your electrical wires? Wrap the wires in spiral conduit, it will be fine.

 

 

This in not an area where you can just please yourself what to do, without looking things up again I am sure you must use malleable copper pipe. With gas installations you MUST do it by the book (the red one) or the BSS man may well insist you rip it all out and start again.

[ChrisPy]

if you have only one appliance you can manage with just one joint, where the pipe connects to the appliance.

 

I used a continuous length of 10mm copper which I fed through from the kitchen to the gas locker via a hole and gland in the front bulkhead. By careful manipulation I have a 270degree expansion bend at the appliance and a loop inside the gas locker, then it connects to the bubble tester, all without kinking the tube (well, not so you would notice). Before you cry 'clever sod' I do admit to getting it right only the second time around. The first time I had to cut the tube at a kink and insert a joint, so I replaced the lot. So the inspector is going to be disappointed when he tries to count the joints. I used 15mm copper pipe clips lined with short pieces of split washing machine hose which are a tight fit on the 10mm tube and neatly fit inside the 15mm saddle clip.

 

the gas leak testing goo is wonderful stuff and should be sloshed onto every joint but it tends to escape from the bottle if you're not careful. I keep mine captive by storing the plastic bottle in a jam jar.

Edited September 25, 2007 by chris polley

[DHutch]

And no soldering !

Ohwwww, but i like soldering compresion fittings!!