Solar panel and wind generator combo

[The Dreamer]

On 28/02/2020 at 12:44, Jess-- said:

on inland waterways they don't seem popular because

Apart from ar a Golden Nook Farm on the SUC, where the wind bows so heavily off of the Cheshire Planes, that it makes me wonder why anyone wood choose to moor there in the first place.  Nevertheless every other boat has a turbine, most of which are running so fast, I would be surprised if they don’t burn out within a year...

[fluffflinger]

13 hours ago, peterboat said:

Bought from Amazon 600 watts  3 phase with controller its maximum output is slightly higher than my solar controller which is set to be safe for my LifePo4s. It is working because on windy days my voltage goes up overnight, which means it powered my fridge freezer and composting toilet fan, not huge amounts I know but better than nowt.  All for £180 so no complaints from me 

So probably something like this  https://www.amazon.co.uk/Generator-Vertical-Windmill-Controller-Supplementation/dp/B07PCQYF16?th=1

 

600w at 12v that's 50amps, that's an interesting number? 

 

I am no expert on Lithium but friends who have them tell me you can't measure state of charge from purely the voltage it is unreliable because of so many other factors.  So I presume you have some sort of battery monitor??? What does that tell you about it's performance?

 

If you ever get any definitive handle on its output at realistic wind speeds please share it with us all.   

 

Til then happy cruising.

[MtB]

14 minutes ago, fluffflinger said:

I am no expert on Lithium but friends who have them tell me you can't measure state of charge from purely the voltage it is unreliable because of so many other factors. 

 

This is partly true. You monitor the individual cell voltages and mentally draw the graph. The 'knee' at each end of the graph tells you when you are at the extremes of charge i.e. high or low. In the middle the cell voltages stay pretty level.

 

Where you are in the middle bit doesn't really matter as they don't sulphate, and will soak up as much charge as fast as your charging sources can deliver it. In fact it is good practice never to get to either end of the SOC range. Hang around in the middle and use the individual cell voltages to tell you when you are at one end or the other and modify your charging accordingly.

 

They are different to live with in every possible way from LA batts. 

 

 

[peterboat]

33 minutes ago, fluffflinger said:

So probably something like this  https://www.amazon.co.uk/Generator-Vertical-Windmill-Controller-Supplementation/dp/B07PCQYF16?th=1

 

600w at 12v that's 50amps, that's an interesting number? 

 

I am no expert on Lithium but friends who have them tell me you can't measure state of charge from purely the voltage it is unreliable because of so many other factors.  So I presume you have some sort of battery monitor??? What does that tell you about it's performance?

 

If you ever get any definitive handle on its output at realistic wind speeds please share it with us all.   

 

Til then happy cruising.

Mine is a 24 volt system,  voltage is everything on LifePo4s I have had a couple of years with them I have 6 x 12 volt domestic and 30x 36 volt for drive, as you can imagine you get to understand them after a while. I have moniters on the midnite controllers and a volt meter, for LifePo4s it works great. All my batteries have individual BMSs which I can plug into the outer to monitor 

Edited March 8, 2020 by peterboat

[fluffflinger]

8 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

This is partly true. You monitor the individual cell voltages and mentally draw the graph. The 'knee' at each end of the graph tells you when you are at the extremes of charge i.e. high or low. In the middle the cell voltages stay pretty level.

 

Where you are in the middle bit doesn't really matter as they don't sulphate, and will soak up as much charge as fast as your charging sources can deliver it. In fact it is good practice never to get to either end of the SOC range. Hang around in the middle and use the individual cell voltages to tell you when you are at one end or the other and modify your charging accordingly.

 

They are different to live with in every possible way from 

Understood. They didn't exist in a practical form when I outfit my last yacht so my understanding of them is limited to reading and listening to those that have them.

 

So what can you determine from measuring battery voltage, not the definitive stage of charge that you can with lead acid? I appreciate we 're  going off topic but I am intruiged.

[MtB]

19 minutes ago, fluffflinger said:

So what can you determine from measuring battery voltage, not the definitive stage of charge that you can with lead acid? I appreciate we 're  going off topic but I am intruiged.

 

You measure individual cell voltages, not battery voltage.

 

Then you can see when any of the cells is steady, which is good/correct. 

 

If any is falling then you are approaching dangerously low for that specific cell and you must charge the bank (or just the cell, but this is difficult) to save it from damage/loss. Same at the top end but you must stop charging.

 

There are a dozen or so multi-hundred post threads here on lithiums which discuss in total detail. Find them using the search box top right, that'll see the rest of your Sunday soaked up - fascinating reading!!

 

 

Edited March 8, 2020 by Mike the Boilerman
Add a bit

[Dr Bob]

19 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

You measure individual cell voltages, not battery voltage.

 

Then you can see when any of the cells is steady, which is good/correct. 

 

If any is falling then you are approaching dangerously low for that specific cell and you must charge the bank (or just the cell, but this is difficult) to save it from damage/loss. Same at the top end but you must stop charging.

 

There are a dozen or so multi-hundred post threads here on lithiums which discuss in total detail. Find them using the search box top right, that'll see the rest of your Sunday soaked up - fascinating reading!!

 

 

I dont agree mike.

I estimate the SoC of my LiFePO4s direct from the total bank voltage. As long as the you take a rested voltage, then this graph works very well and has been very consistent for the last 12 months. Each amp of draw between 1A and 10A seems to reduce the voltage seen on the batteries by 0.1V so if say I have a 5A draw and a 13.05V reading, I can estimate a 'rested' voltage at 13.10V so I am about 130Ahr from full.

For me, bank voltage tells me everything I need to know about state of charge in the centre part of the voltage graph. I only use cell voltages when I am nearing the knees and ignore it for the rest of the time.

Working between 20% and 80% SoC, you dont have to be very accurate anyway.

 

 

[MtB]

5 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

I dont agree mike.

Ah but your four cells are properly balanced!

 

My bank of 8 (24v nominal, for Fluffy) has one cell significantly low and another significantly high, so I need to rely on cell voltages. 

 

Annoyingly all my cells have spot-welded interlinks and the whole bank weighs about 40kg so not easy to lug the whole lot back to the house/workshop and bench balance it.

[Richard10002]

3 hours ago, fluffflinger said:

Understood. They didn't exist in a practical form when I outfit my last yacht so my understanding of them is limited to reading and listening to those that have them.

 

So what can you determine from measuring battery voltage, not the definitive stage of charge that you can with lead acid? I appreciate we 're  going off topic but I am intruiged.

Watch a load of this guys videos and you will get up to speed on solar and lithium’s. Probably quicker than searching on here. (This video just gets you to his pages, then you can watch whichever you like - you would learn a lot if you watched all of them  ).

 

 

 

[RufusR]

FYI my neighbour boat works in wind industry and has a Rutland on his boat as well as solar his advice was wind is not worth the money on a boat unless you have it to spare .  cover every inch of your roof in solar before spending on wind on a canal boat . That’s the advice of a wind turbine engineer . Says it all 

[fluffflinger]

8 minutes ago, RufusR said:

FYI my neighbour boat works in wind industry and has a Rutland on his boat as well as solar his advice was wind is not worth the money on a boat unless you have it to spare .  cover every inch of your roof in solar before spending on wind on a canal boat . That’s the advice of a wind turbine engineer . Says it all 

Totally agree.  The other consideration is that on my previous yachts the wind turbine was placed in as higher  unencumbered location as possible.  Not really something you can achieve on a narrowboat.  

 

If you check back that was my original suggestion.

 

[peterboat]

1 minute ago, fluffflinger said:

Totally agree.  The other consideration is that on my previous yachts the wind turbine was placed in as higher  unencumbered location as possible.  Not really something you can achieve on a narrowboat.  

 

If you check back that was my original suggestion.

 

Mine is about 12 foot above the wheelhouse, it has 4 stays it's an aluminium pole and hinged at the bottom.  It's been a sunny windy day the washer and the dishwasher has been on and batteries are at 27 volts, if the wind continues I would expect them to be the same in the morning 

[fluffflinger]

3 minutes ago, peterboat said:

Mine is about 12 foot above the wheelhouse, it has 4 stays it's an aluminium pole and hinged at the bottom.  It's been a sunny windy day the washer and the dishwasher has been on and batteries are at 27 volts, if the wind continues I would expect them to be the same in the morning 

Apologies I had presumed you lived on a narrowboat that moved once in awhile and not one that remains permanently moored. So would you agree that in cruising mode your set up would be a tad impractical?

 

Tell you what I think we both know where we stand on this topic so let's call it quits?

 

I really don't believe a wind turbine is worth the expenditure for a narrowboat.  This is merely based on my ten plus years cruising on a yacht, you obviously do. Let's agree life is too short to get into silly disputes. 

 

As I said before happy cruising.

 

Kind regards

 

Richard

[peterboat]

4 minutes ago, fluffflinger said:

Apologies I had presumed you lived on a narrowboat that moved once in awhile and not one that remains permanently moored. So would you agree that in cruising mode your set up would be a tad impractical?

 

Tell you what I think we both know where we stand on this topic so let's call it quits?

 

I really don't believe a wind turbine is worth the expenditure for a narrowboat.  This is merely based on my ten plus years cruising on a yacht, you obviously do. Let's agree life is too short to get into silly disputes. 

 

As I said before happy cruising.

 

Kind regards

 

Richard

Not scoring points Richard my widebeam with wheelhouse has an electric drive so I maximize my collection of electric as much as possible hence the wind turbine.  It folds down in about 2 minutes so no hardship, spring, summer and autumn we are out a lot winter we might go to Sheffield for new year's celebrations.