Victron CYRIX versus Smartbank

[Endeavour]

On the face of it these two products seem to do much the same thing?

 

http://www.victronenergy.com/upload/docume...eryCombiner.pdf

 

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/sbdesc.html

 

Does anyone have any experience of either of them. Does one offer worthwhile advantages over the other? Any recommendations? I ask as I am planning on fitting one (or the other).

 

All suggestions gratefully received.

Edited September 6, 2007 by Endeavour

[blackrose]

I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to achieve but just to throw another hat into the ring, if it's just for switched charging I have one of these which switches charging between my start battery and bow thruster batteries (it could equally be used between the start and domestic bank). http://www.power-store.com/view-item.asp?i...amp;id=196&

 

There are also others in the range that are capable of slightly different functions http://www.power-store.com/?id=196

 

Anyway, I find it works very well whether I am charging from my dedicated start/BT alternator or from the battery charger on shore power.

Edited September 7, 2007 by blackrose

[chris w]

The issue when combining batteries for charging through any kind of relay (viz: start & domestics) is that the domestics will usually require a long charge and the start battery requires virtually no charge (from just starting the engine) so typically if you combine the two banks together, the start battery will always be overcharged.

 

With an AC multi-output charger, the outputs are diode isolated from each other so this effect does not obtain.

 

Chris

[Chris-B]

On the face of it these two products seem to do much the same thing?

 

http://www.victronenergy.com/upload/docume...eryCombiner.pdf

 

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/sbdesc.html

 

Does anyone have any experience of either of them. Does one offer worthwhile advantages over the other? Any recommendations? I ask as I am planning on fitting one (or the other).

 

All suggestions gratefully received.

Endeavour, if you want to see a smartbank/smarguage setup in situ please contact me with a phone number

we are moored in Uxbridge and are very pleased with it

Chris

[Gary Peacock]

We are looking at using SmartBank-Advanced on the next 3 boats. I just need to catch Gibbo to discuss the dark arts of black boxes!

[Tony Brooks]

I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to achieve but just to throw another hat into the ring, if it's just for switched charging I have one of these which switches charging between my start battery and bow thruster batteries (it could equally be used between the start and domestic bank). http://www.power-store.com/view-item.asp?i...amp;id=196&

 

There are also others in the range that are capable of slightly different functions http://www.power-store.com/?id=196

 

Anyway, I find it works very well whether I am charging from my dedicated start/BT alternator or from the battery charger on shore power.

 

 

Chris

 

Seeing alternators are constant voltage charging systems how can this be except in cases of advanced controllers or battery sensed alternators looking at "the other" battery bank.

 

If about 14 volts will overcharge the engine battery it will also overcharge the domestic bank eventually and it will surely overcharge a car battery between London and Aberdeen.

 

What am I missing?

 

Tony Brooks

[Lt Cmdr Willi Gofarr ( rtd]

We are looking at using SmartBank-Advanced on the next 3 boats. I just need to catch Gibbo to discuss the dark arts of black boxes!

 

edited because I am a senile old fool

Edited September 7, 2007 by Lt Cmdr Willi Gofarr ( rtd

[blackrose]

The issue when combining batteries for charging through any kind of relay (viz: start & domestics) is that the domestics will usually require a long charge and the start battery requires virtually no charge (from just starting the engine) so typically if you combine the two banks together, the start battery will always be overcharged.

Chris

 

Chris, since my relay cuts in and out at specified voltages (13.7v & 12.8v respectively), won't it just give each bank what it needs despite them being different sizes? I've never found my start or BT battery to be overcharged when I've checked them.

 

By the way, what does the smartbank do?

 

Mike

Edited September 7, 2007 by blackrose

[Sir Nibble]

I think Chris just mentally farted there, open a window and give him a moment.

[Guest]

The issue when combining batteries for charging through any kind of relay (viz: start & domestics) is that the domestics will usually require a long charge and the start battery requires virtually no charge (from just starting the engine) so typically if you combine the two banks together, the start battery will always be overcharged.

 

With an AC multi-output charger, the outputs are diode isolated from each other so this effect does not obtain.

 

Chris

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[chris w]

Chris

 

Seeing alternators are constant voltage charging systems how can this be except in cases of advanced controllers or battery sensed alternators looking at "the other" battery bank.

 

If about 14 volts will overcharge the engine battery it will also overcharge the domestic bank eventually and it will surely overcharge a car battery between London and Aberdeen.

 

What am I missing?

 

Tony Brooks

 

You're quite correct, I did mentally fart. I should have added that the effect I described will indeed obtain, but only where battery sensing is employed (ie: a relay combined with an alternator controller or split charge diodes with or without an alternator controller)

 

Chris

[Guest]

You're quite correct, I did mentally fart. I should have added that the effect I described will indeed obtain, but only where battery sensing is employed (ie: a relay combined with an alternator controller or split charge diodes with or without an alternator controller)

 

Chris

It comes with age Chris

[Alan Saunders]

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Forty eight questions, only one answer!

 

As pointed out elsewhere in this thread overcharging of one bank will only occur if the regulator is set above the (automobile) norm. Sterling actually admit this and suggest a diode in the start battery circuit may be necessary to reduce the voltage. Since, as Chis implies, you have discharged the start battery at only 100-300A for 2-5 seconds i.e. (without going into the Peukert debate again see your Cold Cranking Capacity) at the most only a few Ah (300x5/60/60*3?). Even if the start battery is completely discharged it is likely to have less than a quarter of the auxiliary battery capacity. This degree of overcharging may result in some water loss; it is more likely that it will reduce sulphation than do any damage. In any case, in most boat systems I have seen, the voltage drop in the wiring ensures that this situation will never occur as the voltage drop through the cables is >0.5V. An alternative view is that power, which could be diverted to the auxiliary bank, is being wasted trying to charge a fully charged start battery.

 

One solution (also suggested by Sterling) is to wire the alternator directly to the auxiliary battery bank (sense to auxiliary bank also) with the start battery being connected via the split charge relay/diode. There is a slight hazard in that if the auxiliary battery bank is isolated it will be possible to start the engine without a load on the alternator; equally you could pull the plug on the start battery when the engine is running. There are several solutions that may prevent this such as powering the start relay or a blocking relay from the auxiliary bank isolator.

 

Alan Saunders

[blackrose]

My start battery/BT battery setup switching via a relay as described above, has an alternator regulator fitted but it is sensed at the start battery because with the volt drop to the bigger BT bank at the bow it was felt better to undercharge the BT batteries rather than overcharge the start battery.

 

I hope this is ok (please say yes!)

Edited September 7, 2007 by blackrose

[Tony Brooks]

Forty eight questions, only one answer!

 

As pointed out elsewhere in this thread overcharging of one bank will only occur if the regulator is set above the (automobile) norm. Sterling actually admit this and suggest a diode in the start battery circuit may be necessary to reduce the voltage. Since, as Chis implies, you have discharged the start battery at only 100-300A for 2-5 seconds i.e. (without going into the Peukert debate again see your Cold Cranking Capacity) at the most only a few Ah (300x5/60/60*3?). Even if the start battery is completely discharged it is likely to have less than a quarter of the auxiliary battery capacity. This degree of overcharging may result in some water loss; it is more likely that it will reduce sulphation than do any damage. In any case, in most boat systems I have seen, the voltage drop in the wiring ensures that this situation will never occur as the voltage drop through the cables is >0.5V. An alternative view is that power, which could be diverted to the auxiliary bank, is being wasted trying to charge a fully charged start battery.

 

One solution (also suggested by Sterling) is to wire the alternator directly to the auxiliary battery bank (sense to auxiliary bank also) with the start battery being connected via the split charge relay/diode. There is a slight hazard in that if the auxiliary battery bank is isolated it will be possible to start the engine without a load on the alternator; equally you could pull the plug on the start battery when the engine is running. There are several solutions that may prevent this such as powering the start relay or a blocking relay from the auxiliary bank isolator.

 

Alan Saunders

 

 

I strongly suspect this is more a theoretical effect than actual as long as the wiring is adequate and the kept in good order.

 

JennB h shad a Adverc plus cheap relay charge splitting for over 6 years and there has never been any sign of the engine battery being overcharged,. In fact I have just changed it and goodness knows how long it had been in use on the hire fleet.

 

The Adverc does sense off the domestic battery (contrary to the Adverc diagram) and the main charging lead feeds the engine battery. The relay is between the switched side of both master switches, but it is checked a couple of times a year for volt drop.

 

I have never needed to top the engine battery up and both batteries register very similar charging voltages (way under 0.5 volt difference).

 

Tony Brooks

[Gibbo]

On the face of it these two products seem to do much the same thing?http://www.victronenergy.com/upload/docume...eryCombiner.pdfhttp://www.smartgauge.co.uk/sbdesc.htmlDoes anyone have any experience of either of them. Does one offer worthwhile advantages over the other? Any recommendations? I ask as I am planning on fitting one (or the other). All suggestions gratefully received.

 

I've got quite a lot of experience of the SmartBank

 

It's been so successful that Victron and Mastervolt have both tried to copy it.

 

They missed out the important bits.

 

I can categorically state that SmartBank works better than either of the other two. But then again, I would say that.

 

Gibbo

 

We are looking at using SmartBank-Advanced on the next 3 boats. I just need to catch Gibbo to discuss the dark arts of black boxes!

 

I had the terrible bad manners of going on holiday for a few weeks

 

I shall contact you this coming week.

 

Gibbo

Edited September 9, 2007 by Gibbo

[Gibbo]

By the way, what does the smartbank do?

 

Similar job but we built in a few extra features to cure some of the problems people had on certain (not all) installations with similar devices.

 

One quite common problem is what some people refer to as "relay chatter" or "cycling". SmartBank has a few tricks to stop this. The advanced version is a whole different bag of fish.

 

Gibbo

[Guest]

Similar job but we built in a few extra features to cure some of the problems people had on certain (not all) installations with similar devices.

 

One quite common problem is what some people refer to as "relay chatter" or "cycling". SmartBank has a few tricks to stop this. The advanced version is a whole different bag of fish.

 

Gibbo

Is that where the battery voltage drops on the start battery, drops the relay out, then comes back up, brings relay back in and so ad infinitum?

Edited September 9, 2007 by Guest

[Gibbo]

Is that where the battery voltage drops on the start battery, drops the relay out, then comes back up, brings relay back in and so ad infinitum?

 

Sort of. The biggest problem is when the auxiliary battery is brought into circuit and the overall voltage drops, so the relay opens, so the voltage rises, so the relay closes, so the voltage drops, etc. That's the result of just using a voltage controlled relay. They work ok if the charger is big in relation to the battery bank size and/or if the auxiliary is not deeply discharged. However if the charger is small or if the auxiliary is deeply discharged a simple voltage controlled relay can rattle back and forth for hours before it serttles down.

 

Our gadget has magic in it to stop it happening.

 

Gibbo

[Endeavour]

Sort of. The biggest problem is when the auxiliary battery is brought into circuit and the overall voltage drops, so the relay opens, so the voltage rises, so the relay closes, so the voltage drops, etc. That's the result of just using a voltage controlled relay. They work ok if the charger is big in relation to the battery bank size and/or if the auxiliary is not deeply discharged. However if the charger is small or if the auxiliary is deeply discharged a simple voltage controlled relay can rattle back and forth for hours before it serttles down.

 

Our gadget has magic in it to stop it happening.

 

Gibbo

 

I think that it is time I put my money where your mouth is!

Edited September 12, 2007 by Endeavour

[Gibbo]

I think that it is time I put my money where your mouth is!

 

In the pub?

 

Gibbo