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Ant cole

Ruggerini rm278 grey smoke

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Hi guys. , smoke latest ! 

After our engine rebuild we have still got smoke 

We have had the top rebuilt , so we are pretty sure it’s not oil ,

Key diesel have just had a look and agree with me it’s overfueling ,as it’s grey smoke ,smells ,and doesn’t clear after a good  thrash .

we are still running it in ,and now looks like either fuel pump timing is retarded ,or the fuel pump is the wrong type .its a bitch to alter timing as you can’t see it,and adjusted by shims ,ie. retard. Add shins.  Advance remove shims. ,, as we believe it’s retarded. We have to remove shims ,, only appears to be one shim in , key diesel not come back with anymore suggestions as yet , 

When it’s tied up and rev it ,either under load or not we get grey smoke and a film of what appears to be diesel on the water from exhaust , 

we know all the colours of diesel smoke , etc. , but any advice welcome , 

There is a smoke screw on engine which alters amount of fuel delivered. When this is altered ,revs drop and smoke still there, so we presume it’s not the amount of fuel delivered , so we assume. It’s when it’s delivered, , ie....timing , .  We have an engineering manual ,however appears to be no timing marks anywhere , 

Last ditch attempt to solve before we have to sell it , Ant 

 

Edited by Ant cole

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7 minutes ago, Ant cole said:

Hi guys. , smoke latest ! 

After our engine rebuild we have still got smoke 

We have had the top rebuilt , so we are pretty sure it’s not oil ,

Key diesel have just had a look and agree with me it’s overfueling ,as it’s grey smoke ,smells ,and doesn’t clear after a good  thrash .

we are still running it in ,and now looks like either fuel pump timing is retarded ,or the fuel pump is the wrong type .its a bitch to alter timing as you can’t see it,and adjusted by shims ,ie. retard. Add shins.  Advance remove shims. , only appears to be one shim in , key diesel not come back with anymore suggestions as yet , 

When it’s tied up and rev it ,either under load or not we get grey smoke and a film of what appears to be diesel on the water from exhaust , 

we know all the colours of diesel smoke , etc. , but any advice welcome , 

There is a smoke screw on engine which alters amount of fuel delivered. When this is altered ,revs drop and smoke still there, so we presume it’s not the amount of fuel delivered , so we assume. It’s when it’s delivered, , ie....timing , .  We have an engineering manual ,however appears to be no timing marks anywhere , 

Last ditch attempt to solve before we have to sell it , Ant 

 

Put more shim in? You can buy shim steel on the net. Cut with scissors.

I hate these shimmed pumps, its a nasty cheap way of making a pump, give me a CAV  any day.

Edited by Boater Sam

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Clearly it is unburnt fuel. Could be fuel timing, could be injectors, could be fuel pump. Did you have the injectors tested/overhauled?

No familiarity with this specific make of engine but on many, it is quite easy to check the spill timing (even if it may be harder to adjust). Do you have a manual for it?

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We have had the injectors and pump serviced and tested. , all ok , 

but the pump for the rd278  is different than all the other models. ,  so if for example it has been changed for an rd270 pump in past it will be an incorrect delivery , 

yes we we have a manual , but even the mechanic who rebuilt it is confused by the manual , as he says. Sometimes things don’t translate well Italian to English , ,

spill timing looks like a very complex thing to me. 

 

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Its not over-fueling, you can only over-fuel a diesel when its running flat out. If its lightly loaded then adding more fuel simply makes it go faster.

It sounds like poor combustion, getting good combustion at light load is a diesel problem. Could be retarded, could be running too cold, could be poor injection/atomisation. Are we talking a hint of smoke or serious embarrassment? Does it still smoke when its working hard?

 

...............Dave

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Smoke is always there , worse under load . . Engine temp is good. , running. At 70 degrees at manifold , measured with digital gun , ,, when wind blows smoke back at us it’s nasty , not plumes of it , but you can see it against the water , after a few hours cruising  I can feel it in my throat sort of , , we have been shutting engine off in locks , and now we only cruise local as I won’t take it out far, ,,as I said. Key diesel have had a look as a favour , who Rcr use to build engines , I’m awaiting their advice after sending them my manual info , ,boat goes great , sounds great ,   The rm278 is a de rated rd270.  , the 270 is 28 bhp industrial tractor engine .   The rm278  ,same engine but derated to 18bhp for marine use. , ,I do not know how they lower the bhp , as everything near identical apart from fuel pump it seems to me ,  the rd redlines at 3000 the rm redlines at 2000, 

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They de-rate them by lowering the maximum speed ?:)

 

.........Dave

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Grey smoke that chokes the lungs and makes eyes water has aldehydes and ketones formed when fuel is partially decomposed by spraying onto metal surfaces under 400deg C.....the commonest cause is leaking/defective injectors,next is low compression ,especially valves leaking .Excessive clearance between piston tops and cylinder head also cause white smoke ,due to cooling by metal surfaces.....hint.....make sure you have the correct nozzles on your injectors........another hint...are the pistons in back to front/wrong way round?.....more common than you might think.......are the pistons correct for the motor?

Edited by john.k

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9 hours ago, dmr said:

They de-rate them by lowering the maximum speed ?:)

 

.........Dave

I note the smiley but that could give a wrong impression.

 

Basically the speed of diesel is controlled by a combination of fuel and load so if you reduce the amout of maximum fuel the maximum speed AT ANY GIVEN LOAD. So at the same load the maximum speed will be lower but if everything else is correct like prop size the new, lower BHP will mean a reduced load so maximum speed can still be achieved at the lower power.

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I'm reasonably sure my Beta BD3 tug engine was rev limited to about 1800rpm. I don't know how this was done, but it was the case.

 

The first time I had it serviced the bloke said he was very familiar with the engine when fitted in tractors, where such engines revved to 3,000+rpm and produced about 65hp. Being limited to 1800rpm means even if the torque curve was flat, the power output would be limited to approx the Beta spec of 35hp for that engine, regardless of load.

 

I guess it all depends on how the max revs were limited but mine would not rev higher than 1800 even off load, IIRC, which puzzled the service bod. 

 

 

 

 

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The JD3 is the same, in its John Deere guise it revs to 2400 and Beta limit it to about 1300, so it still produces its full torque but max speed and hence max power are limited/derated  (power = torque times speed).

 

Speed is limited by turning a little screw that physically limits how far the "throttle" can open, simple as that.

 

and yes, I know that diesels don't actually have physical throttle, but you know what I mean.

 

..............Dave

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2 minutes ago, dmr said:

Speed is limited by turning a little screw that physically limits how far the "throttle" can open, simple as that.

 

and yes, I know that diesels don't actually have physical throttle, but you know what I mean.

 

I do know what you mean, but I think there was more to it on my BD3.

 

Surely limiting the 'throttle' mechanism travel just reduces the maximum amount of fuel that can be injected, meaning the top speed still varies with load. Its a long time since I had the BD3 but my recollection was opening the throttle wide resulted in the same top revs whether it was in gear or out of gear, i.e with and without a load on the engine. Could be wrong tho...

 

 

Mind you, 1800rpm in gear resulted in a massive rooster tail so I never did that except as an experiment.

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Thanks , well. We’ve gone about as far as we can . I’ll see if key diesel can sort the smoke issue out,but I doubt they can , spent a lot of time and money on boat and got nowhere with the engine , it always starts and runs well , just the smoke issue , but to be honest we’re fed up , so I think time to sell , 

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In a petrol engine the throttle controls the torque by controlling how much air and hence fuel the engine gets. An automotive diesel is set up to behave in a similar way to give a similar "driving experience :)".

 

Marine and industrial diesels are typically different, the "throttle lever" controls the speed because it connects to the governor, it tells the engine what speed to run at, and the governor then puts in the right amount of fuel to give that speed. Its sometimes called an "all speed governor", but even an automotive style diesel will have a rev limiter.

 

If you open the throttle on your Kelvin, or most vintage engines with a hefty flywheel, you get a few lovely thuds and even a little plume of smoke, the governor is seeing that the engine is running slower than required and so throws in a huge amount of fuel till the engine gets to the required speed. When my washing machine goes onto heat cycle the engine works much harder but the governor keeps the speed mostly constant.

 

...............Dave

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3 minutes ago, Ant cole said:

Thanks , well. We’ve gone about as far as we can . I’ll see if key diesel can sort the smoke issue out,but I doubt they can , spent a lot of time and money on boat and got nowhere with the engine , it always starts and runs well , just the smoke issue , but to be honest we’re fed up , so I think time to sell , 

 

Curiously this was one of the reasons I removed my Beta BD3. Always smoked a bit, not so much that other people commented, but too much to be pleasant or tolerable. The smoke was far more aggressive on the lungs than old vintage engine smoke, dunno why.

 

I too spent a LOT of money and time trying to fix it, with no success. Only had 3,000 hours on it. 

 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

Curiously this was one of the reasons I removed my Beta BD3. Always smoked a bit, not so much that other people commented, but too much to be pleasant or tolerable. The smoke was far more aggressive on the lungs than old vintage engine smoke, dunno why.

 

I too spent a LOT of money and time trying to fix it, with no success. Only had 3,000 hours on it. 

 

 

 

The JD3 is similar though the smoke goes upwards so its only tunnels and rare wind conditions when we get to smell it, and its not that bad. I suspect these DI diesels running at below intended speed struggle to get enough turbulence for perfect combustion. I also assume they are injecting faster than the old vintage diesels so possible produce more NOx.

 

................Dave

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Still doesnt adddress the basic problem......fuel is being sprayed onto metal under 400degC,but hot enough to react fuel with air and produce toxic smoke........excess fuel in a hot engine produces black smoke...free carbon...which has a pleasant odour,somewhat like coal smoke.......assuming youre not a greenie,of course.

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4 hours ago, Mike the Boilerman said:

 

I do know what you mean, but I think there was more to it on my BD3.

 

Surely limiting the 'throttle' mechanism travel just reduces the maximum amount of fuel that can be injected, meaning the top speed still varies with load. Its a long time since I had the BD3 but my recollection was opening the throttle wide resulted in the same top revs whether it was in gear or out of gear, i.e with and without a load on the engine. Could be wrong tho...

No. Diesel engine throttle levers have nothing directly to do with the fuel flow. They set the target rpm for the governor. The governor will increase or reduce the fuel flow in order to achieve the rpm set by the throttle lever.

 

So to de-rate the engine, you just limit how far the rpm selector (aka throttle lever) can be moved. Maximum fuel flow is unaffected.

 

(edit, I see Dave beat me to it but never mind, at least we agree!)

Edited by nicknorman

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Theoretically ,the smoke can be cleared by raising the temperature in the cylinder....assuming your Ruggerini is A/C ,then a restriction of the cooling air would do it.........here I should mention that I know nothing about Ruggerinis ,except that parts are so expensive they are a throw away motor.....but there are several Ruggerini s on my engine junk heap........here s a typical example.....guy brings in a Rugga for a knock.....pull the sump off,broken crank.......cost of new crank..$6300....cost of new motor..$6300.........I say ,mate junk the Iti,and get a Perkins.

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