Installing chimneys etc

[Strads]

Hi folks, I expect its been covered before but on searching I coudlnt see so heres the question.

 

We are looking at installing an oil fired raeburn on our barge and will need to cut a suitable hole and need to have a chimney flange..

 

Whats the best method of cutting the hole (and ensuring its in the right place!) but also when fitting the flange on the exterior roof, how to secure and seal as its on a curved roof section.

 

Many thanks

 

john

[ChrisPy]

you need a cast-iron chimney flange (eg from Midland Chandlers) which is available to suit the angle of the roof.

 

I cut out a square hole with a grinder - 4 cuts. the flange gives lots of overlap.

[Yamanx]

I used a hole saw, use plenty of cutting grease/oil and put the drill on the slowest setting. I've cut three holes in the roof so far without problems.

 

When I fitted the stove, I cut the lining back about 150mm all round the inside, square so it looked neat, cut the hole with the hole saw (104mm), bolted in the cast iron flange and sealed with polyurethene sealant (paintable).

[Bones]

I used a hole saw, use plenty of cutting grease/oil and put the drill on the slowest setting. I've cut three holes in the roof so far without problems.

 

When I fitted the stove, I cut the lining back about 150mm all round the inside, square so it looked neat, cut the hole with the hole saw (104mm), bolted in the cast iron flange and sealed with polyurethene sealant (paintable).

 

 

I used a drill... I drilled endless holes in a circle shape and then filed out the hole; it was beautiful but a unfortunately I had measured it too small so I used a jigsaw and made it a bit bigger! I filed down the edges and then painted the exposed cut to protect it from the weather.

[blackrose]

I used a drill... I drilled endless holes in a circle shape and then filed out the hole; it was beautiful but a unfortunately I had measured it too small so I used a jigsaw and made it a bit bigger! I filed down the edges and then painted the exposed cut to protect it from the weather.

 

I did the same but connected the holes with a jigsaw with a metal cutting blade. I tried a holecutter on a drill but because the hole had to be cut on a sloping part of the roof it was impossible - even at slow speeds the metal hit one side of the hole cutter first and the bloody drill just wanted to fly out of my hands.

[richardf]

Will the chimney be of sufficient length to get the pull you need for a Rayburn?

[tidal]

If it is oil fired there is an alternative flue system for some type

 

http://www.rayburn-web.co.uk/raytech/fluepf.htm

 

Probably not helpful but thought I would mention it

Adrian

[Strads]

If it is oil fired there is an alternative flue system for some type

 

http://www.rayburn-web.co.uk/raytech/fluepf.htm

 

Probably not helpful but thought I would mention it

Adrian

 

 

Folks - many thanks for some very useful tips/suggestions, makes it seem straight forward,

having talked to a couple of suppliers re the raeburn some think it will be fine others said it may need an extra length pot to draw etc,,, so maybe some experitation once in, which will probably take months any ways.

 

best be drawing up alist of the various intallations and then reviewing the order of things to ensure we dont screw up... or make more holes than we need..

 

cheers john

[carlt]

Folks - many thanks for some very useful tips/suggestions, makes it seem straight forward,

having talked to a couple of suppliers re the raeburn some think it will be fine others said it may need an extra length pot to draw etc,,, so maybe some experitation once in, which will probably take months any ways.

 

best be drawing up alist of the various intallations and then reviewing the order of things to ensure we dont screw up... or make more holes than we need..

 

cheers john

If you're not getting enough draw, I know someone who put a computer fan in the soot box which helped no end. It may also be necessary to re-jet an oil-fired rayburn because they are jetted for heating oil, not red diesel.

[wrigglefingers]

I'm still struggling with fitting a Rayburn to Surprise, but I've managed to get an engineer out to at least look at the job now.

 

I thought I'd sussed the problem with a solid fuel Rayburn the week before last when Rayburn contacted me with a brainwave. I would comply with the HETAS requirements for fitting a Rayburn if I installed an Exhausto fanned flue which could be run on either the landline or via invertor. I got very excited and started to imagine Christmas with decent food and all-round heat. However, advice from Rob at BSS and talking to the engineer has put paid to that. Basically, there isn't enough draw on the chimney to safely vent a new Rayburn if the fanned flue fails and no effective means of damping the fire in that case.

 

The engineer said that the lack of a failsafe on the flue made it impossible for him to recommend installation and said that he thought that installation of any solid fuel (specifically not wood though) appliance was fundamentally unsafe. He recommended a diesel refurbished Rayburn with a pre-warmed pressure jet burner. Although the chimney would still need to be fanned the necessary failsafe would be present as the diesel couldn't be used without electricity and therefore the lack of fuel supply would shut down the stove immediately. As a by-benefit it could be timed for when we're at work. Diesel consumption is relatively low - about a third of a litre/hour. I'm still waiting to hear what the electricity requirements will be. I shall need to fit another diesel tank on the boat and as that needs to be higher than the cooker it's probably going to have to be in the hopefuly soon-to-be-redundant gas locker through the bulkhead.

 

There's obviously a major flaw to this plan. What is it? He also wants to fit the cooker transverse to the cabin and freestanding, panelled in by fireboard and I shall have to build a cupboard to accommodate the hot water cylinder which also needs to be higher than the cooker. Not sure what I think to this plan either .......

 

Help!

 

Shep

Edited November 18, 2007 by wrigglefingers

[onthecut]

Hi Strads.

 

If your fit out isn't complete and the roof is bare inside in the vicinity of the flue aperture, then a plasma cutter will make the job a pleasure and leave all the other methods for dead. When we finally decided on our porthole apertures, arranged with friendly local boatyard to cut them with such a cutter == absolutely superb neat, quick job. If you have a serious issue with the roof curvature, it's worth getting a proper plinth made up. Sealed ours at the outer edges with Loctite Flange Sealant.

I absolutely wouldn't want to encourage an unsafe installation and it's not an area I'm qualified in, but I am a bit bemused by your problems. Strikes me that looking at an awful lot of the flued heating and cooking kit fitted on our boats, the flues in particular don't match the manufacturers' requirements, as, of necessity, they are all too short. On a low setting (which really is all you need), my Bubble stove does run blue when it's warm. The Dickinson cooker however burns yellow whatever it's set at, with a similar length flue.Is it possible for Rayburn to supply you with a derated unit, better matched to your flue arrangement ? My guess is that once installed, you'll not be running it on more than tickover anyway unless you like sweating a lot !

 

Mike.

[wrigglefingers]

Hi Strads.

 

If your fit out isn't complete and the roof is bare inside in the vicinity of the flue aperture, then a plasma cutter will make the job a pleasure and leave all the other methods for dead. When we finally decided on our porthole apertures, arranged with friendly local boatyard to cut them with such a cutter == absolutely superb neat, quick job. If you have a serious issue with the roof curvature, it's worth getting a proper plinth made up. Sealed ours at the outer edges with Loctite Flange Sealant.

I absolutely wouldn't want to encourage an unsafe installation and it's not an area I'm qualified in, but I am a bit bemused by your problems. Strikes me that looking at an awful lot of the flued heating and cooking kit fitted on our boats, the flues in particular don't match the manufacturers' requirements, as, of necessity, they are all too short. On a low setting (which really is all you need), my Bubble stove does run blue when it's warm. The Dickinson cooker however burns yellow whatever it's set at, with a similar length flue.Is it possible for Rayburn to supply you with a derated unit, better matched to your flue arrangement ? My guess is that once installed, you'll not be running it on more than tickover anyway unless you like sweating a lot !

 

Mike.

 

Hello Mike,

 

The engineer at Rayburn Technical Dept specifically said that a diesel fired Rayburn would need a fanned flue at the length we are able to achieve on a narrowboat. I don't think that Rayburn will supply a derated unit and, in fairly exhaustive (ho ho) discussions with AGA Rayburn I ascertained that without a pressure jet conversion (which they don't supply) they didn't think their diesel unit was suitable. There does seem to be a growing concern about the safety of flued appliances on boats at the moment with regard to the safe removal of carbon monoxide from them and, with the growing number of liveaboards, that would seem to be sensible and prudent. I know that Rob at BSS is working towards establishing some form of safety guidance with HETAS and presumably OFTEC for diesel.

 

I can't comment on the cutting of a hole in the roof but the installation engineer didn't want to place the flue even close to the lining of the boat and will fit my stove, when we get it organised, in the centre of the boat, with an offset chimney. I suppose it could be done with the use of fireboard, but I'm inclined, under the circumstances, to listen to the engineers ...........

 

Regards, Jill

[smileypete]

The engineer said ... that he thought that installation of any solid fuel (specifically not wood though) appliance was fundamentally unsafe.

 

 

Are there any other people who have put a Rayburn on a boat?

 

If so maybe they could give some idea of possible problems.

 

That said, I think the biggest safety gain comes from having a working smoke and CO alarm.

 

Even so they won't make up for an unsuitable installation.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[carlt]

 

Are there any other people who have put a Rayburn on a boat?

 

If so maybe they could give some idea of possible problems.

 

That said, I think the biggest safety gain comes from having a working smoke and CO alarm.

 

Even so they won't make up for an unsuitable installation.

 

cheers,

Pete.

I've put a multi-fuel rayburn on most of my boats and never a murmer from the CO alarm.

 

You'll find a lot of manufacturers won't recommend their burners for boats. In this litigious world, it isn't worth it.

 

I'd be interested to know why, say, a leaky old chinese casting from machine mart is safer than a burner with the build qualiy of Rayburn.

 

You open the box, you put fire in, you close the box.

 

If you are concerned about draw and chimnet height, I've known people put computer fans in the chimney stack but I've never had a problem.

[onthecut]

Hi Jill.

 

Didn't realise till I'd posted my reply there were two separate boats involved ---- must pay more attention ! Our diesel stove flue goes up pretty much smack on the centreline of the boat and the closest bulkhead is steel, so at least that should be OK !!! If it's of any interest, I do know of a Dickinson stove for sale, which as far as I'm aware came out of a correctly tested boat and must at least meet the current regs. As mentioned, mine at least does run yellow and I do regularly clean the flue. Very economical as far as I can tell and very hot, if you want it to be.

I'm still a bit nonplussed buy the focus on flued devices while at the same time you can have open flame cookers. I would have thought they would be first on the hit list.

 

Mike.

[wrigglefingers]

Hi Jill.

 

Didn't realise till I'd posted my reply there were two separate boats involved ---- must pay more attention ! Our diesel stove flue goes up pretty much smack on the centreline of the boat and the closest bulkhead is steel, so at least that should be OK !!! If it's of any interest, I do know of a Dickinson stove for sale, which as far as I'm aware came out of a correctly tested boat and must at least meet the current regs. As mentioned, mine at least does run yellow and I do regularly clean the flue. Very economical as far as I can tell and very hot, if you want it to be.

I'm still a bit nonplussed buy the focus on flued devices while at the same time you can have open flame cookers. I would have thought they would be first on the hit list.

 

Mike.

 

Hello Mike, I'm not always clear when I'm this choked up with a cold, so apologies.

 

I ran into problems fitting a Rayburn simply because I couldn't do it myself and so set about finding an engineer who would. It's taken six months to get to this point and like you I was astounded by the amount of red tape and teeth-sucking it's entailed so far. Every single part of this job needs to be done by somebody different and it seems complicated beyond belief. However, when I read about cases like the Lindy Lou last winter I begin to understand.

 

Thanks for your concern,

 

Jill

[smileypete]

I've put a multi-fuel rayburn on most of my boats and never a murmer from the CO alarm.

 

Any idea of flue size and length?

 

Might help Jill to give some idea of what may work OK for her.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited November 19, 2007 by smileypete

[carlt]

Any idea of flue size and length?

 

Might help Jill to give some idea of what may work OK for her.

 

cheers,

Pete.

From smoke box to chinaman's hat, about 11'. 5" tube.

[badgerburger]

 

Are there any other people who have put a Rayburn on a boat?

 

If so maybe they could give some idea of possible problems.

 

That said, I think the biggest safety gain comes from having a working smoke and CO alarm.

 

Even so they won't make up for an unsuitable installation.

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

Might not be what you want to hear, but this summer, we -removed- a solid fuel Rayburn from our widebeam & replaced it with a much smaller woodburner (with backboiler). It's a quarter of the size, but still heats up the place (& hot water + radiators) nicely.

 

Given the choice again, I'd never install another Rayburn on a boat (impressed that Carlt gets it to work, but wouldn't recommend it myself).

 

B.B.

[Yoda]

Just a thought.If your doing some work or installing internal chimney ducting don't forgetto light a smoke wand to see if you have any leaks.

[smileypete]

Might not be what you want to hear, but this summer, we -removed- a solid fuel Rayburn from our widebeam & replaced it with a much smaller woodburner (with backboiler). It's a quarter of the size, but still heats up the place (& hot water + radiators) nicely.

 

Too hot I take it.

 

Maybe the idle heat output could be reduced and staying in time increased with some fettling and extra firebricks.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[badgerburger]

Too hot I take it.

 

Maybe the idle heat output could be reduced and staying in time increased with some fettling and extra firebricks.

 

cheers,

Pete.

 

Tried that (and everything else ...) Partly too hot, but the (lack of) draw was the other problem. I think the flue length had a lot to do with it.

 

When we did run it hot enough, it would draw o.k., but that was just excessive for our boat.

 

 

B.B.

[smileypete]

Tried that (and everything else ...) Partly too hot, but the (lack of) draw was the other problem. I think the flue length had a lot to do with it.

 

Any idea of flue size and length?

 

Might help Jill to give some idea of what may not work OK for her.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[wrigglefingers]

Hello Folks,

 

Thanks for your help - anybody able to fit one for me? :D

 

....... Still, the investigation goes on. The consensus on boats around here seems to be that, as Carl says, 11-12' works on a 5" flue. However, it's still below the HETAS minimum of 4 - 4.5m of flue (depends on location, prevailing winds, tree location and so on) and therefore no-one will fit one. The fanned flue option from Exhausto isn't a runner because I have no failsafe if the elecricity ceases for any reason. I know that the BSS are working hard on establishing a standard for fitting solid fuel and wood-burning stoves on boats after the Lindy Lou and other accidents, and, with so many of us now living aboard in winter, the consideration is that this is of some urgency. I'm sure that Rob@BSS will let us know.

 

In the meantime, I can't fit a diesel stove until the spring as that's how long it's going to take the welder to get round to fabricating a tank for the diesel to go in the gas locker. Moreover, I'm beginning to question whether it's worth it as the cost is now astronomical even for a secondhand stove. £2500 for the re-jetted cooker, £500 for fitting, plus dock hire, plumbing, new hot water cylinder, tank and pipework costs, new diesel tank (which will need the bulkhead cut out and then re-welded), flue, kitchen and berth refit costs, all of which will need professional help owing to general ineptitude. Can't see much change out of £6.5k at the moment ........ However, I am able and qualified to cut the hole in the roof, and I do know where it needs to go now, hoorah!

 

Regards, Jill

[smileypete]

Hello Folks,

 

Thanks for your help - anybody able to fit one for me? :D

 

Maybe someone would move it into the boat for you, then do the rest yourself.

 

cheers,

Pete.

Edited November 21, 2007 by smileypete