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Toilet water pump problem


Felshampo
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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

Much depends upon the inverter's resting current draw. First thing in the morning the fridge is likely to be shut down on the thermostat and the inverter asleep (no mains type loads). If it was just an LED light and a quality inverter (Mastervolt is) then I would suggest the voltage is all but accurate.

 

If you have 2 x 110Ah batteries they will not be as fully charged as possible until the   charging amps drop to between 2.2 and 4.4 amps.

 

Edited to add - getting confused with another topic. Keep charging until the charging current has fallen to between 1% and 2% of the battery capacity. Older batteries will probably not drop to 1%.

I will switch everything off in the morning and check

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12 minutes ago, WotEver said:

At a guess, you could have the wrong battery type selected, although 13.9V is too low for absorption with any battery type. Try doing a factory reset and see what happens. Let us know

I have replaced AGM with AGM but I checked and the battery monitor is on Gel which is correct for AGM. The manual for the inverter/charger says the charging voltages are set. (in the software? ) 

I can do a factory reset of the battery monitor but not the charger, as far as I know, which should as you say be 14.4v. But the only way I know this is because that's what the monitor tells me.

Should I do a factory reset of the monitor. The manual suggested I should wipe the battery history when installing new batteries - which I did. 

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I’ll wait for someone with the same equipment to answer your questions as I’d only be guessing. I might find the manual and have a look tomorrow - what exact models do you have?

Edited by WotEver
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12 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Much depends upon the inverter's resting current draw. First thing in the morning the fridge is likely to be shut down on the thermostat and the inverter asleep (no mains type loads). If it was just an LED light and a quality inverter (Mastervolt is) then I would suggest the voltage is all but accurate.

 

If you have 2 x 110Ah batteries they will not be as fully charged as possible until the   charging amps drop to between 2.2 and 4.4 amps.

 

Edited to add - getting confused with another topic. Keep charging until the charging current has fallen to between 1% and 2% of the battery capacity. Older batteries will probably not drop to 1%.

This morning the monitor read :  95%    85ah used      12.49v

 

I switched everything off and waited about ten minutes and the voltage read  12.61v 

 

The toilet is still working today! 

 

8 hours ago, WotEver said:

I’ll wait for someone with the same equipment to answer your questions as I’d only be guessing. I might find the manual and have a look tomorrow - what exact models do you have?

I've got the mastervolt 12 / 2500  100 combi and the masterlink BTM III

 

Thanks for everyone's help so far. 

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Who said the correct setting for AGMs is gell, was it the battery supplier ofrthe charger manual?

 

For very early AGMs that is probably correct but at least one supplier of modern AGMs insists they need an absorption voltage of (from memory) 14.7 volts, certainly far higher than 13.9V.

 

Batteries cost money so well worth checking.

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2 hours ago, Felshampo said:

I've got the mastervolt 12 / 2500  100 combi and the masterlink BTM III

The closest manual I can find is this one:

https://images.mastervolt.nl/files/10000009405_00_ManualMassCombi18002600EN.pdf

 

If you have a look at the bottom of page 36 you’ll see that whatever battery setting you choose the absorption voltage should be above 14.2V. If a factory reset doesn’t get your charging voltage back up then it would suggest your unit is faulty. 13.9V is much too low to look after your batteries long term. Also, take note of Tony B’s last post - confirm from their data sheets what voltages your AGMs require - you may well require the Traction setting. 

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3 hours ago, Felshampo said:

This morning the monitor read :  95%    85ah used      12.49v

 

I switched everything off and waited about ten minutes and the voltage read  12.61v 

 

I think  that looks pretty typical of what we used to see last year with our LA's.

We had 660Ahr capacity and in the morning in winter with a draw of 2 ish Amps, our voltage would be for example 12.50V which rose to 12.60V with the inverter off. I think Tony B's original post is a bit conservative to say 12.50V is only 50% SoC. I used to see 12.50V (true rested voltage) with around 20% capacity out when the batteries were new ......and after nearly 2 years of use (maybe a 5% loss). Capacity calculated by amps out and NOT the SoC reading.

Be careful though in the summer as you cannot estimate voltage at rest if you have solar, unless you get up very early.

It sounds like the OP batteries are resonably well charged and working well (after 7 hours of engine running). I assume your alternator is putting in a higher voltage?

I read the thread as the the inverter/charger was putting in 13.9V which I guess is ok if it is left on for a long time. If it is the alternator that is only putting in a 13.9V then that is a different issue and there are ways to sort that......as we have discussed many times.

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4 hours ago, Tony Brooks said:

Who said the correct setting for AGMs is gell, was it the battery supplier ofrthe charger manual?

 

For very early AGMs that is probably correct but at least one supplier of modern AGMs insists they need an absorption voltage of (from memory) 14.7 volts, certainly far higher than 13.9V.

 

Batteries cost money so well worth checking.

The manual for the mastervolt reads as if all is preset with dip switches. I don't see how to change the charging voltage. 

Could the charger be using the float voltage? 

3 hours ago, WotEver said:

The closest manual I can find is this one:

https://images.mastervolt.nl/files/10000009405_00_ManualMassCombi18002600EN.pdf

 

If you have a look at the bottom of page 36 you’ll see that whatever battery setting you choose the absorption voltage should be above 14.2V. If a factory reset doesn’t get your charging voltage back up then it would suggest your unit is faulty. 13.9V is much too low to look after your batteries long term. Also, take note of Tony B’s last post - confirm from their data sheets what voltages your AGMs require - you may well require the Traction setting. 

The manual is here

 

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.mastervolt.com/products/mass-combi-12v/mass-combi-12-2500-100-230-v/&ved=2ahUKEwiFvvXDt-biAhVTtnEKHctfC2EQFjAAegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw1Jdam_DAACcxzSTqFAve8k&cshid=1560428104826

I will check the charging voltage with the supplier

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1 hour ago, Felshampo said:

The manual is here

Same figures on P44. 

1 hour ago, Felshampo said:

Could the charger be using the float voltage? 

You need to tell us. Which LEDs are displayed, Bulk, Absorption, or Float?

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3 hours ago, WotEver said:

Same figures on P44. 

You need to tell us. Which LEDs are displayed, Bulk, Absorption, or Float?

Yes I read that. Before we had the new batteries that is what we got. 

How do you do a factory reset? 

The charger is showing the third and then the fourth LED. So both are absorption. I have got it to the first float LED a couple of weeks ago but that took about 8 hours and for half of that it was showing less than 10amps and 100%   (I know) 

Edited by Felshampo
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Hi, long time lurker,. But I have experienced the same as op.  I wonder if the problem is a water pressure problem rather than an electrical pressure problem ( so to speak )

My water system does not have an accumulator - for whatever reason.  In order to flush water in the toilet I open a cold tap on the sink to get the pump working.   Toilet flushes fine then.    This only happens occasionally.

Does the op have an accumulator?

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35 minutes ago, Lincoln said:

Hi, long time lurker,. But I have experienced the same as op.  I wonder if the problem is a water pressure problem rather than an electrical pressure problem ( so to speak )

My water system does not have an accumulator - for whatever reason.  In order to flush water in the toilet I open a cold tap on the sink to get the pump working.   Toilet flushes fine then.    This only happens occasionally.

Does the op have an accumulator?

As it happens  .. no.

I will try this next time....... Thanks. 

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I have just looked at the batteries this morning. They were at 12.4!

I have put the generator on to charge them and I don't know why but I hadn't noticed this before. The starter battery is being charged at 14.2v but the home bank is being charged at 13.8v.

The starter battery was at 12.8v this morning so didn't need to be charged really. 

I am know seriously worried that this has been the problem all along. 

Does anyone know what I should do to correct this? 

 

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I have been looking in the manual and you can set the dip switches to give a constant float of 13.8v

I wonder if this is the setting I have. Why would they be set like that? 

Is it easy to check the dip switches and if they are set up like that can I just change them? 

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14 minutes ago, Felshampo said:

The starter battery is being charged at 14.2v but the home bank is being charged at 13.8v.

 

14 minutes ago, Felshampo said:

Does anyone know what I should do to correct this? 

Charging at 13.8 volts will take 'days' to recharge a battery, and, if you are taking charge out at the same time, then it could never actually get fully charged.

 

Just take a logical step by step approach and find out where the 'leccy' is getting lost.

 

How is your charger connected to the batteries ?

1) To Starter battery and a 'split charge' to the Domestics

2) To Domestics with a split charge to the Starter

3) Charger has two outputs - one to Starter & one to Domestics

 

You need to identify what charging method is giving you 13.8v

1) Alternator

2) Battery Charger

3) Generator

4) Other

 

Once you have identified which it is them that 'item' needs 'looking at' or replacing.

 

If the Starter battery is being charged at 14.2 (14.4 - 14.7) when 'fully charged' but the domestic batteries are only getting 13.8v then there is something wrong with the wiring supply to the domestic batteries. Do you have :

1) A VSR 'splitter' unit

2) A Split charge Relay unit

3) Something else

 

If you have some sort of 'splitting' unit measure the output voltage for both the starter and domestic side.

If the domestic side 'is down' then that's the problem.

The 'old' Lucas split charging unit can often have 0.5v difference on the outputs - if you have one of these then replace it with a modern VSR unit.

 

One of these ?

 

Image result for lucas split charge diode

Edited by Alan de Enfield
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10 minutes ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Charging at 13.8 volts will take 'days' to recharge a battery, and, if you are taking charge out at the same time, then it could never actually get fully charged.

 

Just take a logical step by step approach and find out where the 'leccy' is getting lost.

 

How is your charger connected to the batteries ?

1) To Starter battery and a 'split charge' to the Domestics

2) To Domestics with a split charge to the Starter

3) Charger has two outputs - one to Starter & one to Domestics

 

You need to identify what charging method is giving you 13.8v

1) Alternator

2) Battery Charger

3) Generator

4) Other

 

Once you have identified which it is them that 'item' needs 'looking at' or replacing.

 

If the Starter battery is being charged at 14.2 (14.4 - 14.7) when 'fully charged' but the domestic batteries are only getting 13.8v then there is something wrong with the wiring supply to the domestic batteries. Do you have :

1) A VSR 'splitter' unit

2) A Split charge Relay unit

3) Something else

 

If you have some sort of 'splitting' unit measure the output voltage for both the starter and domestic side.

If the domestic side 'is down' then that's the problem.

The 'old' Lucas split charging unit can often have 0.5v difference on the outputs - if you have one of these then replace it with a modern VSR unit.

 

One of these ?

 

Image result for lucas split charge diode

I have just looked at the dip switches and they are bloody small but I think they are set for fixed float at 13. 8v.

I have switched everything off and I am waiting for the mass combi to cool down and then I will change the dip switch. 

Why they were set like this I don't know unless the original owners were in a marina and plugged in all the time? 

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Another question.

With the engine running....what is the charge voltage on the domestic and engine battery. Are you getting over 14.0V on the domestics when over 80% SoC? If so then it would indicate the issue is just with your battery charger of the genny.

11 minutes ago, Felshampo said:

Why they were set like this I don't know unless the original owners were in a marina and plugged in all the time? 

A float of 13.8V would be normal (or too high!).

Its the absorption voltage setting you need to look at.

It could be that the charger is sensing that the batteries are full ish so is going to float too soon but usually it would keep it at absorption voltage for at least an hour.

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38 minutes ago, Felshampo said:

I have just looked at the batteries this morning. They were at 12.4!

I have put the generator on to charge them and I don't know why but I hadn't noticed this before. The starter battery is being charged at 14.2v but the home bank is being charged at 13.8v.

The starter battery was at 12.8v this morning so didn't need to be charged really. 

I am know seriously worried that this has been the problem all along. 

Does anyone know what I should do to correct this? 

 

Not familiar with your charger but if it has two independent outlets then the 13.8V could be expected.

 

When an alternator or battery charger is running at maximum output (amps) the voltage is likely to be depressed. I have seen not much more than 12V with very discharged batteries. To see if this is the case you need to measure the current flowing out of the charger to the domestic bank and compare that with the maximum current for the domestic battery outlet. Otherwise keep charging and see if it starts to creep up.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Not familiar with your charger but if it has two independent outlets then the 13.8V could be expected.

 

When an alternator or battery charger is running at maximum output (amps) the voltage is likely to be depressed. I have seen not much more than 12V with very discharged batteries. To see if this is the case you need to measure the current flowing out of the charger to the domestic bank and compare that with the maximum current for the domestic battery outlet. Otherwise keep charging and see if it starts to creep up.

 

 

i.e. Bulk phase. 

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OK. 

Still getting a reading of 14.4 to the starter and 13.8 to the domestic Bank. The monitor shows 31amps.

Does this mean it is 14.4 for both? 

Shouldn't it automatically change over at some point? 

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1 hour ago, Alan de Enfield said:

 

Charging at 13.8 volts will take 'days' to recharge a battery, and, if you are taking charge out at the same time, then it could never actually get fully charged.

 

Just take a logical step by step approach and find out where the 'leccy' is getting lost.

 

How is your charger connected to the batteries ?

1) To Starter battery and a 'split charge' to the Domestics

2) To Domestics with a split charge to the Starter

3) Charger has two outputs - one to Starter & one to Domestics

 

You need to identify what charging method is giving you 13.8v

1) Alternator

2) Battery Charger

3) Generator

4) Other

 

Once you have identified which it is them that 'item' needs 'looking at' or replacing.

 

If the Starter battery is being charged at 14.2 (14.4 - 14.7) when 'fully charged' but the domestic batteries are only getting 13.8v then there is something wrong with the wiring supply to the domestic batteries. Do you have :

1) A VSR 'splitter' unit

2) A Split charge Relay unit

3) Something else

 

If you have some sort of 'splitting' unit measure the output voltage for both the starter and domestic side.

If the domestic side 'is down' then that's the problem.

The 'old' Lucas split charging unit can often have 0.5v difference on the outputs - if you have one of these then replace it with a modern VSR unit.

 

One of these ?

 

Image result for lucas split charge diode

I need to have an electrician look at this as I am not sure how to find out what set up I have. 

But thanks I now know what to ask and understand the effects. 

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42 minutes ago, Dr Bob said:

Another question.

With the engine running....what is the charge voltage on the domestic and engine battery. Are you getting over 14.0V on the domestics when over 80% SoC? If so then it would indicate the issue is just with your battery charger of the genny.

A float of 13.8V would be normal (or too high!).

Its the absorption voltage setting you need to look at.

It could be that the charger is sensing that the batteries are full ish so is going to float too soon but usually it would keep it at absorption voltage for at least an hour.

I have AGM batteries which are supposed to float at 13.8v I think. 

I wondered if the going to float too soon was the problem also

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28 minutes ago, Felshampo said:

OK. 

Still getting a reading of 14.4 to the starter and 13.8 to the domestic Bank. The monitor shows 31amps.

Does this mean it is 14.4 for both? 

Shouldn't it automatically change over at some point? 

 

I think you need to differentiate between charging via a single alternator, twin alternators, a single output battery charger or a twin output battery charger.

 

The voltages you gave in post 39 suggests that the charge is form a charger and it is likely to be a Mastervolt one. Most quality marine chargers or inverter/chargers have at least two outputs so would not need any form of charge splitting so in response to post 39 I am not sure Alan's contribution adds much and may very well confuse the issue. What he says abut split charge relays, especially if the charging systems is not optimally wired, would be true for charging from a single alternator but no for charging from a two output  charger.

 

I would want to know if you have a single output charger or a twin output charger (not going to search for a manual). If it is a twin output charger I would doubt there is an automatic change over point as you seem to think it might. It would be much more like two separate chargers (again no detail knowledge of your kit).

 

 

A further point re Alan's post but more for others than yourself. If a single alternator output is wired to the engine battery and the split charge relay is used to charge the domestic bank you will burn the contacts in a VSR just as easily as an ordinary split charge relay, The VSR may also oscillate.

 

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1 hour ago, Tony Brooks said:

I would want to know if you have a single output charger or a twin output charger (not going to search for a manual)

The manual is here:

https://images.mastervolt.nl/files/masscombi25005000100525en.pdf

 

It has two charging outputs (100A & 10A) but it’s unclear to me whether or not these are two discreet charging circuits. P42 has the charging specs. 

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