Another Chester towpath attack

[John Orentas]

Another very predictable thread, the great majority of people totally convinced that society is sliding into a morass of violence and lawlessness, from a quick browse only Dr Bradley took the more rational view.

 

Not just on this forum either, an elderly couple in my pub were telling me the other night that when they were younger they were quite safe to walk the streets late at night, the implication being that now they are not, all the figures I have ever seen shows quite clearly that the chances of being assaulted are in direct proportion to your age with the highest risk groups the teenagers and by far the safest the 80+ age group.

 

True the tabloid press print regular accounts of old people being beaten up, but those stories are published because they are rare, not because they are commonplace. It is the perception of crime that is the real problem and quite honestly our society has had this problem certainly as long as I can recall, everybody knows that teddy boys, mods and rockers would target Oap's. But did they. Brawl with one another yes, I did a bit of that myself but old people, I cannot recall a single incident and you can guarantee that every youngster would be as horrified at that as we would be now.

 

As for boating, that barrage of missiles we have to dodge at every bridge, well in my 20 odd years of boating I have not been in any way seriously attacked, nor have I ever witnessed anyone else having that kind of problem. Hundreds of "A friend of a mate of mine was hit by a brick" but how many truly first hand accounts.

Edited August 11, 2007 by John Orentas

[tidal]

As for boating, that barrage of missiles we have to dodge at every bridge, well in my 20 odd years of boating I have not been in any way seriously attacked, nor have I ever witnessed anyone else having that kind of problem. Hundreds of "A friend of a mate of mine was hit by a brick" but how many truly first hand accounts

 

I have to admit as a newbie to the forum and with little recent experience on the cut I was starting to wonder whether it was safe to re-enter the world of canal boating after reading through this thread.

Especially as I have been considering GRP instead of steel. How many problems have posters on here encountered?

 

 

(if this should be a new topic please let me know or shift it.......note avatar )

 

 

edited for typos

Edited August 11, 2007 by tidal

[Carrie]

The State consists of a small but elite group that holds a disproportionate amount of power. The more it tries to reinforce its hold over society, with new laws, rules, more and more limits on freedoms, - the greater the resentment at feeling weak and disempowered (sorry John - I know you hate that word).

I think it's this unequal distribution of power that leads to young people in particular (let's face it, they are the most limited, ruled, controlled group in our society) breaking out in aggressive anti-social ways. If our children were brought up with real respect (a different thing to having no limits), where their opinions actually mattered (as they saw did the opinions of others)and where they had some choice over their lives, they wouldn't feel the need to bolster up their self-image through gangs. I hate to say it, but we have made this problem ourselves in accepting a hierarchical society and repressive state.

[tidal]

but we have made this problem ourselves in accepting a hierarchical society and repressive state.

 

We did?

 

When?

 

 

OK Who voted for that?

 

 

Joking aside I thought it had always been that way?

[Tony Brooks]

If we follow the example of New York (who a few years ago had serious problems with petty crime and vandalism) and the government is serious about tackling these anti-social problems, we need a zero tolerance approach and real punishment for those who choose to behave badly. ASBO's are not the answer...

 

Allan

 

I wonder what is?

 

Many years ago when I was probably not a lot older than the subjects I heard an interview on the wireless news program. Apparently;y a group of Liverpool youths had gone to the Isle of Man and caused a bit of a problem. The Manx system swiftly meted out their punishment which was birching. The interviewer asked if they would cause trouble again. the answer was "not on the Isle of Man". This stuck in my mind.

 

Trouble is we have all this human rights stuff that protects the rights of yobos and tramples all over the rights of ordinary citizens. I am increasingly coming to think (seeing how ASBOS do not seem to work and it is a really bad idea to put first or second offenders in prison for "minor" offences that we ought to revisit a more ancient form of justice.

 

How about at say noon all those convicted yesterday are chain ganged into the town square, stripped to the waste (blokes obviously) with a placard around their necks saying what they had done. Then tether them and allow a variety of soft missiles to be thrown at them untill early evening. It might even be that the missile franchise would pay for supervision. At the very least it would give their victims a chance to feel as if they had been given justice and if the yobs think wearing rotten fruit and veg plus the content of the odd portapotti is a badge of honour the best of luck to them.

 

Whatever happens I am sure we need to make the yobs feel small and also the wrath of their community.

 

I do not want the yobs who stoned my wife and threw eggs all over the boat in Gnosel the be locked up, but I would very much like to stone them and cover them in eggs.

 

Anyone for public birching?

 

Tony Brooks

[matrix]

I hope you lot are allowed to arm yourselves in some way or another. Being allowed to carry a knife or, preferably a sword, would be a nice start. OTherwise maybe we can put Darwin back in the drivers spot and quit saving the scum of the earth.

 

there are some ways to "arm" yourself which is quite legal

and iv`e always found it works 100% of the time

its called a walking a big dog !!!

[saltysplash]

I wonder what is?Many years ago when I was probably not a lot older than the subjects I heard an interview on the wireless news program. Apparently;y a group of Liverpool youths had gone to the Isle of Man and caused a bit of a problem. The Manx system swiftly meted out their punishment which was birching. The interviewer asked if they would cause trouble again. the answer was "not on the Isle of Man". This stuck in my mind.Trouble is we have all this human rights stuff that protects the rights of yobos and tramples all over the rights of ordinary citizens. I am increasingly coming to think (seeing how ASBOS do not seem to work and it is a really bad idea to put first or second offenders in prison for "minor" offences that we ought to revisit a more ancient form of justice.How about at say noon all those convicted yesterday are chain ganged into the town square, stripped to the waste (blokes obviously) with a placard around their necks saying what they had done. Then tether them and allow a variety of soft missiles to be thrown at them untill early evening. It might even be that the missile franchise would pay for supervision. At the very least it would give their victims a chance to feel as if they had been given justice and if the yobs think wearing rotten fruit and veg plus the content of the odd portapotti is a badge of honour the best of luck to them.Whatever happens I am sure we need to make the yobs feel small and also the wrath of their community.I do not want the yobs who stoned my wife and threw eggs all over the boat in Gnosel the be locked up, but I would very much like to stone them and cover them in eggs.Anyone for public birching?Tony Brooks

wow! even more radical than my simple lock up theory There is a ring of truth in what you say though, Lack of corporal punishment in schools and now the home is having a knock on effect. I know there are many desperate cases out there but i still maintain we have to protect the public with suitable deterants for crime. The trouble is what is suitable?

I have to admit as a newbie to the forum and with little recent experience on the cut I was starting to wonder whether it was safe to re-enter the world of canal boating after reading through this thread.Especially as I have been considering GRP instead of steel. How many problems have posters on here encountered?(if this should be a new topic please let me know or shift it.......note avatar )edited for typos

I dont think many boaters have not had the odd item thrown at them, and its been like that probably when the first boat took to the water, the difference then was, if you caught em, they knew you'd caught em. If going for GRP then some kind of force field may be in order..... I jest sir. Canals are still safe. sometime there are isolated problems at specific places but its like going out of your house. You know friday and saturday nights are a bit more dodgy than during the day

[Carrie]

Lack of corporal punishment in schools and now the home is having a knock on effect.

 

Hmmm. Let me hazard a wild guess here. The Met?

[saltysplash]

Hmmm. Let me hazard a wild guess here. The Met?

 

.... :ph34r:

[cugsey]

The State consists of a small but elite group that holds a disproportionate amount of power. The more it tries to reinforce its hold over society, with new laws, rules, more and more limits on freedoms, - the greater the resentment at feeling weak and disempowered (sorry John - I know you hate that word).

I think it's this unequal distribution of power that leads to young people in particular (let's face it, they are the most limited, ruled, controlled group in our society) breaking out in aggressive anti-social ways. If our children were brought up with real respect (a different thing to having no limits), where their opinions actually mattered (as they saw did the opinions of others)and where they had some choice over their lives, they wouldn't feel the need to bolster up their self-image through gangs. I hate to say it, but we have made this problem ourselves in accepting a hierarchical society and repressive state.

and your solution is ......

[Machpoint005]

.... of the Great British underclass.

 

They won't be working anywhere, they will be living of the benevolence of the state, breeding a further generation of scum.

Like their parents and grandparents (whoever they may be?)?

 

Rather than accept the inevitability of a criminal underclass, the unavoidable result of social darwinism, how about a bit of effort to mount a counter attack on the entrenched attitudes that fuel these incidents?

Don't blame Darwin, but lets have the effort!

 

The State consists of a small but elite group that holds a disproportionate amount of power. The more it tries to reinforce its hold over society, with new laws, rules, more and more limits on freedoms, - the greater the resentment at feeling weak and disempowered (sorry John - I know you hate that word).

I think it's this unequal distribution of power that leads to young people in particular (let's face it, they are the most limited, ruled, controlled group in our society) breaking out in aggressive anti-social ways. If our children were brought up with real respect (a different thing to having no limits), where their opinions actually mattered (as they saw did the opinions of others)and where they had some choice over their lives, they wouldn't feel the need to bolster up their self-image through gangs. I hate to say it, but we have made this problem ourselves in accepting a hierarchical society and repressive state.

 

So what is the answer? How about people who sit down with their family and eat dinner and talk? I'm led to believe that there may be households in which this doesn't happen.

 

It's all very well complaining about what's wrong with 'society', but may we have a few positive suggestions to encourage what is right?

 

Ian

[Carrie]

Acceptance and inevitability! WHY?!

I didn't want that way of life for myself and woke up to the understanding (took me years mind) that if you want to change things, you start by changing the way you think. Then you work out what's bugging you and make the changes, one by one. I don't believe in abdicating choice and handing power over my life to others, so I don't vote anyone in. I didn't like the way children are treated by the state, so I tried to do my very best to teach and demostrate respect when I was a teacher myself. I didn't want to support the system that sends children into wars for financial profit, so I left that system.

I hate the exploitation of animals and the waste of land and water, so I became vegan. I don't like that people in the world suffer because of our lazy buying and consumer habits, so I'm frugal and careful what I buy and from where. It didn't all happen at once. At first, some things seemed 'extreme' and I'm a slow learner, but once you open your eyes to the dissociated way we live, there's no closing them.

There are lots of fantastic things that a society does - it's the idea of a State that I can't bear. It hasn't always been this way. It really got going with the feudal system - landowners needed to protect and control their greater share, by forming militias. This growing inequality led to violence and resentment. As only landowners had any say, they made laws to protect what they had and keep the landless poor and disenfranchised. It's simply built up and up from there.

So what's good about society? We are great at sharing tasks and ideas. We're good at making things, building things, overcoming problems. We can educate our own children. We can be open-hearted when one person isn't grabbing the world's resources. Everything good is made in our society and everything bad is caused by the State, in my opinion.

So what can we do? We can decide to make our own decisions for a start. We can get together with other people who are fed up with the meaningless existence of striving to grab more and more, with less and less enjoyment. Form autonomous communities who help each other, live sustainably, share. No leaders at all (before anyone gets confused and starts calling me a communist), but where everyone is responsible for making things happen, rather than waiting for others to do it for them. It's very hard to try this way of living on your own. It's hard enough explaining it (badly) on a forum where most people are likely to be non-receptive, so it's a good idea to meet others. Your friendship group may change - for the better!

Ha! What a long ramble - oh well.

[tidal]

I would like to post a long reply to that but fear we might be straying off topic.

Suffice it to say that i gave up on many of the same ideals after being clubbed to the ground by an officer of the state whilst trying to help keep the peace at a place called Orgreave.

Since then I have worked within the system, it's the only realistic way to change things.

 

I know Sorry folks

Edited August 12, 2007 by tidal

[Sir Nibble]

I don't believe in abdicating choice and handing power over my life to others, so I don't vote anyone in.

????

[StoneHenge]

I'm one of these parents that has never and would never hit, smack or even threaten a child with any kind of violence. In my eyes, violence breeds violence to an extent.

 

When I was younger, my parents brought a new dining table (we were brought up in a council house, and mum and dad and everyone who lived in them then looked after them), and it was a metal base with a smoked glass top.

 

The table top was up against the wall, and me and my sister (who was five years younger) saw this base as a play item and began jumping up and down on it at either end. The welding gave way and one of the base ends fell off.

 

We both got the 'belt' that night. The one and only time dad ever hit us in this way (other times it was a smack on the hand or backside). Put it this way, we never did it again, or anything remotely close to it, but I never want my kids to 'fear' me because of what I might do to them.

 

I want to be able to talk, compromise, hear their views, talk things over and find a solution. Not easy reasoning with a 2 year old, but it's working slowly.

 

Way back then (25 years ago sort of), if you were out and about, so was a local bobby or two, with those huge tall helmets they wore then. You feared them, and you respected them. If you got into trouble, your ear would end up longer for having been dragged back home and given a good talking to, then probably a good hiding too.

 

There is no fear of the authorities these days. Why not get an ASBO when it entitles you to free days out. London Dungeon did this recently (April time I think), where they opened London Dungeon free to those who had ASBO's (aimed at the younger offenders) so they could see how lucky they were not to receive the treatment they would have done back in those days.

 

Funnily enough, no-one came. Not a surprise considering that was then, this is now, and they can pretty much get away with it now. Prison is not a punishment for a lot of these young offenders. The lives they have come from were probably far worse. Living in bad housing or on the streets, parents who don't give a monkeys where they are or who are with. Growing up smoking at a young age, eating garbage out of tin foil containers or having to fend for themselves. Prison is a bloomin luxury. 3 meals a day and a warm bed to sleep in. Who cares about the view, at least someone cares in here enough to make sure you are not cold, or hungry and you even get some exercise and education as well.

 

A holiday camp for those people. We need to clean up some of these estates that have been allowed to be frequented with trouble makers who have been outed elsewhere with frustrated neighbours or communities sick of the crime and violence that is around and start getting tough on them. I'm not for throwing them inside on the first offence but having them attend somewhere where they can talk, maybe get financial help.

 

They have half way houses they put in young people who may have been inside, or on drugs, a type of get independant and rehabilitate. Doesn't work, as they are not supervised, so the flats or houses get wrecked, they get back on drugs and nothing is solved.

 

We are quick to dismiss them as beyond help, and a lot probably are. But what do you do with them? Some will be helped, probably want to be helped, and be rescued from a sorry and pointless existence.

 

I doubt the parents of the gang who attacked that man even care what the kids have done, probably think it's something to be proud of.

 

Solutions? Not sure, but the current system is just not working.

[mayalld]

I'm one of these parents that has never and would never hit, smack or even threaten a child with any kind of violence. In my eyes, violence breeds violence to an extent. When I was younger, my parents brought a new dining table (we were brought up in a council house, and mum and dad and everyone who lived in them then looked after them), and it was a metal base with a smoked glass top.The table top was up against the wall, and me and my sister (who was five years younger) saw this base as a play item and began jumping up and down on it at either end. The welding gave way and one of the base ends fell off.We both got the 'belt' that night. The one and only time dad ever hit us in this way (other times it was a smack on the hand or backside). Put it this way, we never did it again, or anything remotely close to it, but I never want my kids to 'fear' me because of what I might do to them.I want to be able to talk, compromise, hear their views, talk things over and find a solution. Not easy reasoning with a 2 year old, but it's working slowly.Way back then (25 years ago sort of), if you were out and about, so was a local bobby or two, with those huge tall helmets they wore then. You feared them, and you respected them. If you got into trouble, your ear would end up longer for having been dragged back home and given a good talking to, then probably a good hiding too.There is no fear of the authorities these days. Why not get an ASBO when it entitles you to free days out. London Dungeon did this recently (April time I think), where they opened London Dungeon free to those who had ASBO's (aimed at the younger offenders) so they could see how lucky they were not to receive the treatment they would have done back in those days.Funnily enough, no-one came. Not a surprise considering that was then, this is now, and they can pretty much get away with it now. Prison is not a punishment for a lot of these young offenders. The lives they have come from were probably far worse. Living in bad housing or on the streets, parents who don't give a monkeys where they are or who are with. Growing up smoking at a young age, eating garbage out of tin foil containers or having to fend for themselves. Prison is a bloomin luxury. 3 meals a day and a warm bed to sleep in. Who cares about the view, at least someone cares in here enough to make sure you are not cold, or hungry and you even get some exercise and education as well.A holiday camp for those people. We need to clean up some of these estates that have been allowed to be frequented with trouble makers who have been outed elsewhere with frustrated neighbours or communities sick of the crime and violence that is around and start getting tough on them. I'm not for throwing them inside on the first offence but having them attend somewhere where they can talk, maybe get financial help.They have half way houses they put in young people who may have been inside, or on drugs, a type of get independant and rehabilitate. Doesn't work, as they are not supervised, so the flats or houses get wrecked, they get back on drugs and nothing is solved.We are quick to dismiss them as beyond help, and a lot probably are. But what do you do with them? Some will be helped, probably want to be helped, and be rescued from a sorry and pointless existence.I doubt the parents of the gang who attacked that man even care what the kids have done, probably think it's something to be proud of. Solutions? Not sure, but the current system is just not working.

An interesting, if somewhat internally inconsistent post (at the first glance).You eschew any thoughts of using a slap, yet at the same time you recognise that a limited use of physical punishment was a very effective way of preventing kids growing up into yobs.I can actually agree with a great deal of what you said, but not quite all.Does violence beget violence? Maybe it does. However, it seems that a certain knowledge that you have "rights", and cannot be hit whatever you do also leads to violence, and extreme violence at that.In an ideal world, all parents would be able to raise their children without smacking them. But we do not live in an ideal world, and a vast number of parents lack the skills to raise children properly. If they are not permitted to smack them, then you may well remove the only (albeit imperfect) tool that they do have.We will probably never live in an ideal world, and must make do with a world that we can achieve, where children can be physically chastised where appropriate, and where the knowledge that such chastisement is a possibility acts as a deterent. This isn't a wholesale smackers charter, because physical chastisement only keeps its edge where it is used sparingly (as in your case, you were belted ONCE. It didn't need a repeat episode, just the knowledge in your mind that there was a line somewhere, and that crossing it was a really bad idea).I don't have the answers either, but I reckon that there must be a happy medium somewhere.

I didn't want that way of life for myself and woke up to the understanding (took me years mind) that if you want to change things, you start by changing the way you think. Then you work out what's bugging you and make the changes, one by one. I don't believe in abdicating choice and handing power over my life to others, so I don't vote anyone in.

Regardless of which somebody still gets in.Your refusal to vote doesn't help one little bit. It just leaves the choice of who mis-governs us to other people, and frankly not voting just means that you are OK with what other people decided for you.

[Machpoint005]

The trouble is, that the key to bringing up decent citizens involves a whole lot of effort in being consistent, telling the child the difference between right and wrong, and pursuing the point instead of getting fed up with it. Some parents who can't be bothered with (or are incapable of) the intellectual and emotional investment this requires will resort to violence. Taking away the sanction of violence doesn't solve the problem, and may make matters worse. Teachers, to take a parallel example, have no real power over their students, and the students know it. I'm with Dave on this one: there is such a thing as 'acceptable force' but there's a definite line beyond which the reasonable person would see the violence as unacceptable and abusive.

Ian

[Sir Nibble]

I'm not going to join the blame the parents faction, though they must have a share of such blame as exists. Some kids believe that they can do as they please without fear of consequences, the point may be that they are right. IN MY EXPERIENCE, (capitals for emphasis,) school discipline falls on whoever is handy with guilt or innocence unimportant, indeed, the really nasty kids intimidate the teachers, who after all are teachers not some kind of youth police. The real police seem to have been replaced by a recording of "Nothing WE can do" and the courts unable or unwilling to apply realistic sanctions. I believe that early intervention will always be the most effective, but unfortunately those agencies who should apply such intervention have insufficient budget to do their job and spend what they have on the illusion that they are doing it.

 

As an aside, I get a little fed up with people who declare that the "Caring and understanding" approach has had 30 years and hasn't worked. "Hang 'em and flog 'em" had 1000 years and that didn't work either.

[Jason Wilson and Family]

I'm not going to join the blame the parents faction, though they must have a share of such blame as exists. Some kids believe that they can do as they please without fear of consequences, the point may be that they are right. IN MY EXPERIENCE, (capitals for emphasis,) school discipline falls on whoever is handy with guilt or innocence unimportant, indeed, the really nasty kids intimidate the teachers, who after all are teachers not some kind of youth police. The real police seem to have been replaced by a recording of "Nothing WE can do" and the courts unable or unwilling to apply realistic sanctions. I believe that early intervention will always be the most effective, but unfortunately those agencies who should apply such intervention have insufficient budget to do their job and spend what they have on the illusion that they are doing it.

 

As an aside, I get a little fed up with people who declare that the "Caring and understanding" approach has had 30 years and hasn't worked. "Hang 'em and flog 'em" had 1000 years and that didn't work either.

I don't know, personally I don't think it should be up to the schools or the police to discipline children. That should always be a part of the home it is the parents duty to raise their children to be responsible and like Machpoint says some aren't up to it. The schools don't have time to babysit every child and if the police have to get involved you have already failed and it is likely nothing is going to bring the kid in line.

 

I think another problem may be that England seems to have trouble diagnosing mental illness in children. We know a child in Oxford who is always getting in trouble in school, so much so that they keep kicking him out and shuffling him around. He isn't a bad kid at all, my mother and I can tell, from my brothers autism, that he is likely both mildly autistic and has ADD (the real ADD not the problem child stuff) he is fine if you know how to deal with him and know to keep him occupied. Apparently they won't diagnose him though I'm not sure of the reasons.

 

There are likely multiple parts of the problem but I know from my childhood and my parents, a smacking early on firmly cements in your head that there are negative consequences and they can hurt. It is a very basic human learning mechanism, if it hurts, we're not doing it again. No need to beat the daylight out of a kid but you can't let them skate by thinking a stern talking to (which their wandering minds will likely ignore) will be much of a deterrent.

[StoneHenge]

I know I contradict myself, but only in the sense of I personally could not bring myself to smack a small child who was for the majority defenseless. I know I was brought up having been disciplined, all be it rarely, and in my school days, gone was the cane and the rebels ruled.

 

I saw a man walking with his two boys along the path near our marina when I was last there. The youngest (probably about 3) was about to pick up a gravel stone and chuck it in the water (popular passtime among the young uns it seems) and the father told him no. As most toddlers do, they test the actual meaning of no and so the boy stooped down to pick up the stone again. The father this time, came over and whacked the boy round the back of the legs (I felt the sting, never mind the boy) who then burst into tears and got dragged along being told to 'shut up'.I didn't see the need for it, when he could have got down to his level and explained why he asked him not to throw the stones. The boy knew it was wrong in the first instance, just chose to push it, and for his pushiness got smacked.However, I see the gain that was to be had from the cane and the like in the old days and you certainly didn't risk it again if you wanted to sit down.

 

But do we really want to be like that with our next generation? Back to the cane and the like. I pity teachers having such a rough ride and I think things have gone too far in a lot of respects.Teachers not even being able to console a child who has fallen and hurt themselves for fear of being accused of molestation is a bit much, as is not being able to aid in say putting on sun cream onto arms or faces. Rather the child get burnt than to help for fear of rettribution.I do see the role of the parent and how that child has been brought up as paramount to how that child will eventually go on in life. Yes, school, peer pressure and the getting in with the wrong crowd may all contribute, but a well brought up child, who knows right from wrong, and has learnt respect is more likely to steer away from these things that go towards them.Nothing is ideal, but I think things could be made better. These politicians need to spend some time around the real streets and see what is going on, not the ones they drive past in their chauffer driven cars. Give them a week in a rough town, in a rough street where crime, drugs and gangs are rife, chances are they wouldn't last a day, never mind the whole week.Eyes are firmly not open in their case. Not sure if any of the policitcal parties would do any better either.

 

Edited for it adding my text twice and missing returns.

Edited August 13, 2007 by StoneHenge

[Jason Wilson and Family]

I saw a man walking with his two boys along the path near our marina when I was last there. The youngest (probably about 3) was about to pick up a gravel stone and chuck it in the water (popular passtime among the young uns it seems) and the father told him no. As most toddlers do, they test the actual meaning of no and so the boy stooped down to pick up the stone again. The father this time, came over and whacked the boy round the back of the legs (I felt the sting, never mind the boy) who then burst into tears and got dragged along being told to 'shut up'.

 

See that was uncalled for. I think that, and your mention of consoling v. molesting, hint at a problem we have today. There are lines to be crossed ad some people have trouble defining them. There are times when a id genuinely has gone far enough and need a pop on the behind, some parents fear being called for abuse so much they don't and let the behavior slide teaching the child that the boundary is still a ways off. On the other hand some parents are too quick to beat a child for the smallest thing, your example could have been solved by telling him no again and picking him up so he couldn't try again.

 

Children will test their limits, it is human nature, you don't want to slam the door on them all the time because eventually you'll do damage but you don't want to leave it wide open either.

 

 

Edit: Looks like something happened to your post there Stonehenge.

Edited August 13, 2007 by Jason Wilson and Family

[mayalld]

I know I contradict myself, but only in the sense of I personally could not bring myself to smack a small child who was for the majority defenseless.

 

Hmm...

 

I too would find it difficult. I've worked with teenagers for years in an environment where physical chastisement just wasn't an option, but never had kids of my own. I now find myself in the position of having a 10 month old step-grandson, and would find it difficult to slap him.

 

However, I do have to wrestle with the dilema, as to whether by not slapping where it is clearly appropriate to do so (in order to avoid the guilt I would feel at hurting him), I could well be doing him a disservice.

 

I know I was brought up having been disciplined, all be it rarely, and in my school days, gone was the cane and the rebels ruled.

 

In my entire time at school, corporal punishment was used 4 times. The threat was sufficient.

 

I saw a man walking with his two boys along the path near our marina when I was last there. The youngest (probably about 3) was about to pick up a gravel stone and chuck it in the water (popular passtime among the young uns it seems) and the father told him no. As most toddlers do, they test the actual meaning of no and so the boy stooped down to pick up the stone again. The father this time, came over and whacked the boy round the back of the legs (I felt the sting, never mind the boy) who then burst into tears and got dragged along being told to 'shut up'.

 

I didn't see the need for it, when he could have got down to his level and explained why he asked him not to throw the stones. The boy knew it was wrong in the first instance, just chose to push it, and for his pushiness got smacked.

 

In some case, a slap might be the necessary action, for the simple reason that by the time the explanation has occured, the stone will have been thrown, and the damage done.

[StoneHenge]

Edit: Looks like something happened to your post there Stonehenge.

 

I know it went all skew whiff, but I went back in and told it off (without the smacking )

 

Cheers

[Sir Nibble]

My wife has ADD, (it's not just in kids) and wrote her masters thesis on the subject.

England seems to have trouble diagnosing mental illness in children

A diagnosis means treatment (ritalin etc) and a "statement of special educational needs" from the school. Both cost money and it's cheaper to spend children than taxpayers money, also there is a large body of (lay) opinion that the syndrome does not exist 'cos it's too good an excuse.

I could take issue with the term "mental illness" in this context, but that would just be semantics.

[Jason Wilson and Family]

I could take issue with the term "mental illness" in this context, but that would just be semantics.

Is there really a PC way to say it though. I know with Lucas it is developmentally delayed, but that doesn't apply to everything. Not sure what to use to lump everything in.