LEO

Hi, Intersting - what engine, what gearbox, oil cooler or not?. Albi.

Hi, A survey is personal to the person who commissioned it, there is no protection for a 3rd party who uses it without reference to the surveyor, who may consider updating his report for a fee. There are normally (or should be) time constraints with a survey and I (if I were acting as a marine surveyor) would not accept liability without another 'out of water' inspection, who's to say what has happened to the prop' and rudder during the interval?. Who's to say the report has not been tampered with. The person who uses a survey under these circumstances has no protection, (according to posts last week they have limited protection under most instances with a survey!!). ALBI

Hi, Sounds like lack of maintenance to me, I re-black every 2 years or 3 at the most. Check anodes and add to or re-new as necessary. Galvanised steel cold water tanks used to rust just the same (on boats or in houses) unles they were painted. ALBI

Hi, How long is the boat, did it have anodes fitted, and any boats around it fitted with mains electric?. Albi

Hi, This a very sad tale. This crane seems to be 'jinxed' as it was involved in a bad accident with a couple of boats a few years ago. I suspect another craning in /out facility will be lost on the Southern GU. I used this facility a few years ago after bringing my boat down from Lincoln and they were keen to stress craning was done on the understanding that the boat owner was covered by their insurance for all risks. Albi

Hi Cattleya Sounds to me as though you need some new washers to seal the system, which should cure the problem. The engine wants to start but has trouble starting on all 4 cylinders. No matter how tight you get the bolts, they still leak, next stop if you keep on is 'stripped threads'. Sounds as though you have a fairly early 1.5. The gearbox is a very sorry tale and you got some unfortunate engineering advice. We could all learn from this, to issue written instructions and get a written estimate before work commences, then any variations should be covered by additional paperwork. A call to PRM may have helped initially and reference to all those handouts we get at shows may also have been of assistance. I found with old or worn gear boxes it's cheaper to replace them with new ones rather than try to repair them, as they get so much wear and tear they are beyond economical repair. The soot on the water is probably unburnt fuel from all the attempts to start the engine, assuming you have a 'wet' exhaust. Hope this helps, best of luck with the engine. Albi.

Hi Bones - Typical woman - 'Anything you can do, I can etc, etc!'........ Albi.

Hi, I had this problem on my 1.5 on a couple of occassions, if the system has been bled satisfactorily (can take a while to get a good spurt through), a well charged battery, full throttle, 60+ seconds on the heater plugs and perhaps a quick spurt of 'easy start' got it going. Easy start was only used sparingly. Shall be interested to here of the outcome. But your battery does need to be in good condition to get the engine turning over quickly. The gearbox renewal seems a full price, was it a straight swop?, because I have changed a Hurth box over on the canal side in 3 hours. Albi.

Hi, That looks the right one, check it's not a cylinder head nut before removing, engine looks just the same my 1.5, bought back a few memories. ATB Albi

Hi, A wise move, with my 1.5, the feed came from a tapped outlet at the back end of the cylider head, onto which a hose fitted to take water to the hot tank, Another hose then went to the heat exhanger. This is the best way of getting the best hot water temperature. I got the necessary tapped outlet from AMC. it may be blocked off on the head by a nut. I could show you if you want. (PM me shall be around Tues Am) Albi.

Alan, I was interested in your picture of Olive - must be quite an old one as Phipps Brewers have not been around for years - any idea of the date. Albi.

Geoff, No problem, just give the canal if you want - for example I'm GU south. - that covers a large area!, but on the other hand some Surveyors seem to travel long distances for a marine survey... or you could pm me. Albi.

Chris One hopes so, but it depends on how the surveyors body 'polices' the requirement for CPD or indeed whether there is commitment to attend courses. With regard to the body of which I am a member one's attendance at courses is carefully checked and learning has to be on a structured basis. Failure to keep up to date and keep records has serious implications (no excuses no exclusions). I would hope that other professions are the same. As Geoff suggests it would be helpful if details of this unfortunate incident is readily available to others. Where abouts on the system are you Geoff?. Albi

Geoff, Thanks, if I were adjudicating on this case, I would say that the water pump and alternator bracket may be down to possible wear and tear but the exhaust leak and wiring problems are not. Water pumps are prone to failure at odd times (the boat I purchased a few years ago had a doubtful water pump which the owner said was Ok, he sent me a cheque for £100 a few days after the purchase was completed for a new pump - honesty prevails). The bracket holding the alternator could have fractured at any time. But the exhaust is probably a long term defect which should have been discovered. Similarly if you make a statement about the electrics being Ok and they are not ---- a liablity exists. Hope this helps. Albi

Geoff, Thanks for the info, that's a lot of 'boodle' for the advice given by the sound of it - although it may have included a fee for the BSc (including all the expensive paperwork this involves). So which way forward? follow it up with reports to the Surveyor's governing body and the BSS, who may/should take action or put it down to experience or take further legal action. The choice is yours and depends how deep your pockets are. What has been the cost of correcting all the faults?. I still think the best way is to get a Hull survey and to get a mechanic to report on the engine and running gear and if necessary get a report on the electrical and gas installations from a specialist. It may work out cheaper - why pay a surveyor to say how many rads there are? I recall when I worked people often judged the quality of Surveyors report by how many pages it ran to - Wow! and that was pre-word processor days. Let us know how you get on, as I said it's a steep learning curve, but it does have satisfying results. Boats and running gear have got so complicated over the years, which is why so much specialist advice is needed and unless the Surveyor attends courses to keep up to date (continuing professional development courses) the information he gives will be out of date. Unless the Surveyor lives on a boat can they give the necessary advice? - as most problems arise as one actually uses the fittings and equipment. Hope all this helps and that you eventually get to having some good boating. Albi.

Gareth, Sorry not Cowroast. Albi

Tomsk You are correct about the problems that the mis-understanding that 'Drive-bys' (as they are invariably known) creates. There is no such animal - people create such a monster by mis-interpretation and a lack of understanding and a failure to read the caveats. Really I have used and done them to indicate that the property exists, may be occupied and from the front appears to be presentable. This information is given on the basis agreed between the Surveyor and Client. They are a dreadful way of working. Geoff -Really the surveyor reported badly - for example presumably testing the charge rate with a voltmeter rather than testing each cell with a hydrometer. Comments on batteries are foolish -you might just as well say there are 'x'number of batteries of unknown age and maintenance - allow for replacement. Given the delicacy of alternators, I for one would not go fiddling about with them. It is difficult to prove that the bracket was/was not broken at the time of inspection. The exhaust leak was not acceptable, but should Surveyors be commenting on gas installations? The answer is clearly 'NO'. They were unhappy about unscrewing plugs to test the system at one stage, why not get a suitably qualified person in to test the whole installation. Really I think you had a very unhappy experience, I shall be pleased to learn of the outcome, but boating really does require a considerable degree of practical experience and the learning curve is a steep one. (My Visa Statements with entries to UBC confirm this!!). Also, bear in mind that commenting on the work of another is always difficult (batteries frying for example) and an adverse comment is easy to make - that sharp intake of breath through pursed lips is a sure way of ensuring someone's attention. Hope all this helps. I look forward to hearing from you - now about the fee? - remember you get what you pay for. Albi

Hi, Have noted all the foregoing with interest, a couple of points :- Drive By Surveys - no such animal. Drive By valuations - yes - but the Surveyor/Valuer can only do what his clients ask him to do, and many Surveyors (if they are good) work in small areas, which they should know well and so should be able to give a useful satistical figure under these circumstances. Geoff has not mentioned the timescale over which these problems came to light (other than that with the water pump). I think he is entitled to further input from the Surveyor if the boat is a recent purchase. It sounds as if the Surveyor did not 'follow the trail' sufficiently concerning the water in the bilge. It is an established fact that Surveyors must 'follow the trial' to find the course of the problem - speculation is not a good thing. Did he comment on the state of the charging circuit - if he did he was a fool as often these are so complicated that they need testing by a specialist electrician. The exhaust leak from the heater should have been picked up by the Surveyor and the BSS inspector (presume these are the same) - assuming no modifications have been carried out since the date of purchase survey. The surveyor will be reluctant to comment further without involving his insurers and a claim for damages will have to be instigated, (a bit like admitting liability following a Road Traffic accident). A recent case I heard off involved a surveyor who missed an area which needed overplating - as soon as he learned of this problem he offered to refund his full fee (for reasons we can all speculate on!) - good customer relations? - in the event the customer was pleased with all the other work the Surveyor had done and infact paid the fee in full. Family members/ Friends often ask me for informal advice on housing defects (and I am sure that Marine Surveyors are asked for the same informal opinions) and seem hurt that I suggest they pay a fee or go elsewhere - the road to hell is paved with surveyors who have given informal advice and had the situation rebound on them. On the whole I think that Geoff has been let down in this instance, he may have found it better to meet the Surveyor on site and run through these problems during the Survey and would then have built up a better understanding with the Surveyor. Me - I have bought 2 boats and never bothered with a survey, as it has been pointed out to me often over the last 40 years 'Surveyors! you lot know b****r all' so why bother to employ them. Get an ultra sonic test on the hull, and use the fee to pay for repairs as and when. I shall be interested to hear the comments of the Professional body, which the Surveyor says he is a member of. Really, one man should not be commenting on all the components of a boat (or house for that matter) Surveyor should test the hull and obtain reports from other suitably qualified professional to test the electrics plumbing and gas installations (Surveyors are not 'Corgi' trained). With a boat powered by a vintage engine an inspection by an engineer who rebuilds that type of engine is needed - unless you have very deep pockets. The surveyor should then interpret all the reports and report back to you. (this was the tried and tested method I was taught 40 years ago, expensive but perfect and everone was usually happy). The days of the 'Jack of all trade' surveyors is hopfully passing, but sadly the speed at which customers needs advice will continue to keep it alive. Remember in the buyers market prevailing take time, get the best advice for the job you want undertaking. How much was the surveyors fee (ex VAT) relative to purchase price?. Please don't think I'm indicating I have been perfect, I have my fair share of howlers over the years, but ignoring the complaint or problem will not make it go away. Albi.

Hi, Sorry to hear of your problems. The first thing to do is to carefully read your 'Rules of Engagement' - basically a contract between you and the Surveyor as to what he will and will not examine. It may well be that problems have occurred in an area he specifically excluded - say the gearbox for instance. He may have not been able to examine an area as it may have been obscured by a large volume of stored goods, An area could have been locked and access denied, this should situation should be notified to you in any report. He may have pointed out problems he had with acess during the inspection - ie - bilges covered denying access. It may not have been possible to test the engine - raw water cooled and the boat on a slipway. One assumes he/she is a qualified Surveyor with a current paid up sub to a suitable professional body and an enforceable paid up indemnity policy (did you see these or get confirmation) - if so, as suggested contact that body and outline your problems. Try a letter to the surveyor stating that unless he contacts you to discuss the probelm with 7 days you will take action as outlined above and if necessary contact a solicitor ( care here as they can be expensive). Keep a copy of all documents and do nothing to rectify problems. Take good quailty pictures of all the problems. I am a Chartered Surveyor (retired) myself and spent ages trying to sort out problems between Chartered Surveyors and customers on an equitable basis. You will note the use of the word 'Chartered' - sounds ponderous but all too often the surveyor was not suitably qualified and had no indemnity insurance or was a 'friend of a friend', or God forbid was commenting on areas outside his area of expertise (electrical installations for example). This situation may not be so prevalent in the smaller circle of marine surveyors, but the overall, 'modus operadi' should be the same. Also bear in mind surveyors are only human and can make mistakes and normally with negotiation these problems can be overcome. I shall be interested to hear how you get on. ALBI

A, True, but as the well know comedian says - 'it's the way I tell 'em'. He did get someone to intercept them and curtail their hiring of the boat. ATB ALBI.

Hi, Definately not, but it saves a lot of problems if owners tie 'em up tight (boats that is). I moor second boat in on a BW linear mooring and boy, do most boats pass at a good speed - never cause me any problems though. Tight lines, springs and fenders save lots of frayed tempers. The only time I have complained was years ago, when 2 all males crews on a pair of Bridgewater hire boats came through going 'hell for leather' north, 2 abreast, with a crewman each on the roof each armed with a quanting pole tring to knock the other off. They had just left the pub - now that did warrant a visit to Mike Foster!! ATB ALBI.

Hi, I use 2 pins at each end of the boat, each pair hammered in at an angle and crossing, tie the mooring lines to the crossing point, these and a 'spring' at each end will hold the boat secure under vitually all circumstances. Speeding boats and deep draughted boats can pass with complete impunity. Nothing worse than someone 'belly aching' if they can't be bothered to tie up correctly. Albi

Hi, Not sure what type of handpump you have, but I find that my hand pump has to be worked left and right fast to pull the diesel up from the main storage tank to the day tank and when fuel reaches the pump a resistance is felt and you can pump more slowly. Saves priming it. Stating the obvious - you have some fuel in the main tank and it's not been pinched. Hope that helps ALBI

Hi Frank, I used to phone through and found them very helpful, have measurements handy, sounds as if mine was a British manufacture. Hope it all works out. ALBI.

Hi, Intersting case, if it were me and I was that worried about the water ingress I would bite the bullet, dock the boat and fix it properly. Mucking about playing with 'through hulls' below the water line when afloat is a sure way of testing your insurer's attitude (reluctance) to settle claims. It's wise to make sure you have a change of underpants handy when contemplating this work if you are a novice. Best of luck, ALBI