BilgePump

Other methods will vary, but if I had that budget and looking for GRP I would set aside maybe 1/3 of it for things that could seriously ruin a boating season by going wrong. If the engine turns out to be a complete basket case after a month you will really want to repair it / replace it asap in the summer. Basic costs such as licence, mooring, insurance and BSS test can be added to with RCR cover (mobile mechanics etc), moorings away from your home one, petrol and gas plus general things breaking, needing painting, wearing out or being dropped in the cut. If everything goes right and much of the contingency fund isn't needed then you can possibky upgrade or buy another boat for the following season, knowing that you will be willing to invest in a boat if it develops issues. £15k imho is a healthy budget for a GRP cruiser. Two thirds or less of that can buy you a nice centre cockpit cruiser of 80s vintage that has been well cared for and comes with a decent engine, pretty much ready to go cruising.

Hi and welcome to the forum, when you mention centre or rear cockpit I am thinking that you may be looking at things like GRP Viking, Dawncraft and Normans in the mid 20s-30s feet in length. Of course I may be wide of the mark but you may find the step up to a cruiser higher than that onto a narrowboat if that would cause issues. As you have just mentioned family along with you, the crew size is more than sufficient to handle movements and locks. I always like the idea of centre cockpit cruisers but have never had one. I guess it is how you would use the boat. With children/guests a rear cabin can increase privacy for all. For the single DIYer it can become the 'shed'. I've seen GRP cruisers with them added on and boats where original ones have been cut off, dictated by the requirements of the owner at a given time. A large back deck is great when cruising a lot, for sitting out on or setting up a workmate. There are (dis)advantages for both imho. My advice in general is to start cheap and see if you like it. A mooring will be the biggest expense, if the sparcity of facilities on a farmer's field won't be an issue then you could easily pay only half the cost of a plush marina. An expensive bad boat project can be terrible for time, money, stress and health. However, a simple, start cheap, approach can be a tonic for mental wellbeing and calm if you find you enjoy the water.

A way I found to deal with a long heavy boarding plank (just made from scaffold board) is to cut a piece of plywood about 1.25" wider than the plank on both sides and then have a length of 1" square glued and screwed running down each long side of the ply. This is dead light and can be thrown out to the bank and then slide the heavy plank down the channel.

I see The Biscuits has already thought of how 'efficient' the forum can be with visions of the noodles being passed round the marina or cloned packs on their travels. Love it, a bit of jolly good fun that highlights how moving things can be managed in the boating community. I can't imagine a group of motorists easily organising passing and swapping an item to get it down through the country, throw it through the window belting down the M1? I'll enjoy following the noodles' adventures en route.

Fantastic idea, although not sure how far it goes to promote the efficiency of the canals for moving non-perishable freight. Afraid my boat is out of water and north of you so no use but I'll throw in a guess of nine, hoping it's more (sorry The Biscuits).

Sounds very similar. Hadn't seen your mention of the double skin before I posted. Wish I hadn't got rid of mine, tough and stable little boats.

The dinghy is polyester resin so any work with epoxy needs to be careful with cleaning and quantities. Just seems overkill really. Is this one of those 'Ace' dinghies about 8' and double skin so weighty? I had one with holes where a wooden skeg had been attached. Rubbed that area back on outside, filled holes with Sikaflex, a few long lines of glass mat and polyester resin and then just used black gloss paint below the waterline. It did the job and looked reasonable enough for an old dinghy. I know the gelcoat is the key barrier but so many old smashed and battered dinghies full of chunks out of the gelcoat are still in use without any repairs. It will begin to compromise the GRP beneath but pretty slowly.

You can register a boat before licensing as Alan says. Saw it on their site the other day along with the £20 charge. Numbers and plates are only issued automatically with new rigistration long term licences. Short term can be up to 56 days in a year iirc without need for BSS and index number. Intended for trail boats and big boats coming from non-CaRT waters

I'd never seen CRT's boat checker before. Cheers. You learn something new every day. I'm not sure but is that a licence plate beneath the windscreen sides? Can't make out the index number if it is.

Is it currently licensed? W+T says CRT says no and I don't know how to check current status. A boat's name and number in their records doesn't mean it is currently registered and licensed. The name and licence number on a boat I use (that's been away from and not licensed for CRT's waters for the last 10 years) is still in the info available at CanalPlanAC. Also if someone has dropped it in and just got a short term licence that wouldn't flag with the checkers as a delinquent boat for a previous long-term licence if old number not showing.

The boat pictured is a Freeman 23 which matches CRT records for a boat of the same name. Think these were all 7'6"; I've never seen a narrow one. The earlier Freeman 22s came in 7'6" and 6'10"flavours and like you say the narrow ones seem to come up less frequently in fleabay auctions and summon greater interest from potential buyers.

Ask the transport guys if they do like some electrical stores and will take the old one away for scrap when they put yours in the water. In all seriousness though it looks like quite a smart example of a Freeman so the not giving a flying fig about licence or moorings seems to sit a little incongruously with the boat itself.

If they are actually arrears from a mooring agreement would that constitute grounds for a lien (financial claim) on the boat? If the boat has just been 'squatting' there for three years without any agreement then I don't know. How did the landowner have a number (even if incorrect) if there was no agreement in place between him and current or previous owner in the first place? eta: oops posted after previous comment

Wotterdam good idea!

In all honesty I would forget the grand designs and get creative with an existing boat that is already on the water. Self-build finances will disappear fast with cranes and lorries at that size, even before you can find a marina that will let you moor and work on it in a part-fitted state. Another problem with a self-build is the RCD and what you can do if you need to sell within 5 years and it doesn't have one.

Disregarding all the pitfalls associated with a non-standard craft, it does seem that some people may well underestimate the costs involved. Those two engines on that boat pictured in the post are the wrong side of £10k/pr with linkages etc.

CRT answered that indeed it shouldn't show that date now and is for a full year from agreement. Pleasantly surprised by a constructive human reply at 9.13am to my out of hours question.

Thanks for the reply Howard. I would hope that too, but this is CRT and sometimes things can be as clear as canal water. I've only just seen it tonight so thought I'd ask if anyone here knows before trying to contact them tomorrow. I'm also a little amused by some maximum mooring lengths stated like 27'12". Eh?

Hi, I'm hoping someone may be able to help me answer this. I've been looking for a mooring on watersidemooring.com and there's one I'm interested in. However, it has a field stating the contract start date is back in summer 2018. Now, if I commit to the year contract, does this mean that I will have to pay for the full year back to last summer but only get a couple of months use that is still left on it? Or is the date just when it was vacated and if I paid for a year I would get a full one year contract from the date of taking it? A lot of the listings don't have any contract start date at all. All the ones I've looked at are basic towpath leisure use ones so none of them are 'premium' moorings. Does anyone have some experience of the website as I've never had a CRT mooring before. Many thanks.

Not going to wholly disagree but feel there should be some defence. Tried a few when in dry dock there a couple of years ago and they are what they are. Social centres in an economically depressed northern town, along with their characters and chicanery. I went in The Star more than the others and remember a group of OAPs on the lash from Eccles using their tram passes for a good booze up. Apparently a regular thing as they were all well known in there. Cheap beer, no hassles, couldn't argue. As for The New Crown in Newton Heath, again the same. Let's face it, none of the pubs near the Rochdale approaching Manchester or the Ashton out are going to be an idyllic tourist destination but I wouldn't be wary of having a pint in one.

There's a boatyard currently auctioning two 24" and one 12" project boats on fleabay, so the advert titles have them. If they photoshopped the pics to make them look twelve times as big as stated then they could at least have made them look a bit tidier. eta 49'10" residential at Cuckoo Wharf for £1,920.43 seems quite reasonable indeed

Sorry to be late to this thread but thought this may be useful. The OP's question is answered to some extent in CRT's business boating T&Cs where it seems that any advertising on the boat is regarded as trading whether or not the trading is from the boat or not. It's buried on page 10 of https://canalrivertrust.org.uk/media/original/28089-business-licence-terms-and-conditions.pdf Roving Trader "Any boat used for trading in multiple locations. Includes boats used for the sale of goods and/or services, cargo carrying, and the provision of boat handling courses. Customers may board the boat in order to inspect or purchase goods (subject to insurance cover and holding a Non-private BSS certificate) when moored up, but the boat must never navigate with customers on board, except where the boat is licensed for boat handling courses. Advertising any kind of trading or business activity on or from the boat is deemed to be trading. If the boat is used for a business use that is not advertised anywhere on the boat and does not involve any deliveries to the boat or any customers visiting the boat (e.g. proof reading copy sent via email, writing wills) then its use is not deemed to be that of a Roving Trader. If the boat is used as a workshop to produce goods to be sold on the internet or at land based markets, then such use is deemed to be that of a Roving Trader." From this I inferred that if I work on the boat on a computer, eg running the admin for an online shop and the actual goods are not delivered to, stored on or sold from the boat and the online business makes no reference to the boat and the boat makes no reference to the business then all is okay with a standard non-business licence. Same goes for the online tutor/trainer whose abode is irrelevant as clients do not visit, just so long as the tutor/trainer does not advertise his/her professional skills on the side of the boat. Stick your business details on the side and it would appear that a roving trader licence is needed. Of course there seems to be the possibility of as many grey areas as clear ones. What about a small business that designs and supplies custom solar installations for boats and the owner lives on a boat but only does the design side from it and has no customers visiting? If each installation displays the supplier's business details and the business owner has not removed these details from the panels on his/her own boat then would that be regarded as 'advertising any kind of trading or business activity'? Are the panels a part of the boat? Is the wording of CRT quoted above suitably unambiguous to give a definitive answer to the question of whether a trading licence is need or not? It could well be argued not. The crux falls on the line 'Advertising any kind of trading or business activity on or from the boat is deemed to be trading' but is that to be interpreted as the advertising or the business activity itself that is on the boat? It just doesn't seem totally clear.

A horse, a horse, that could supply the manure needed to answer their question.

Hi and welcome to the forum. Although your question is 'buy new sailaway or secondhand fitted out' I guess any suggestions should really involve consideration of information we don't yet know. Will you start trading asap or wait until you can separate your living space and trading space onto the two boats? If one is to be a home and one for trading can it be assumed that they will stay together? What kind of trading boat is envisaged? Walk on or not, moored or continuously cruising? Possibly home mooring and then going out to trade on the cut for part of the time? If you are thinking of a boat that people can walk onto, as in a 'traditional shop', then as zenataomm and Jen have pointed out you will find it much more heavily regulated and expensive territory compared to the roving trader licence where no access is allowed and the boat's exterior is effectively a floating market stall of samples and price lists. Converting one boat into a walk-on 'traditional shop' whilst fitting out another from new would be an awful lot of work, whereas a secondhand boat ready to go and some minor changes to the original boat for roving trading would be an order of magnitiude less work. Some roving traders quite happily live and carry their stock in the same boat but I imagine two of you plus stock in 46ft would be a push so can understand your thinking about a second boat. However, I do wonder how many canal based itinerant businesses can sustain the costs of two boats. A budget of 28k would get a decent liveable 60ft boat from the nineties but you then have two licences, hulls, engines, gearboxes, blacking etc to worry about maintaining. Would it be possible to combine both in 60ft or 70ft? Only you know the type of stock that you will want to sell. Up to one ton of non-hazardous goods, not producing food or drink or waste should be relatively okay judging by CaRT's guidelines for applications. If you only trade in bubble wrap, a lot of space will be required. If you only sell silver pendants, the stock could fit in a small cupboard so do you really need the second boat to start off with? As you say that the new boat needn't be habitable straight away, should we infer that it will be possible to start trading using the existing boat or that you won't start trading from the 46' boat before the larger one is fully habitable? A DIY fit-out takes a long time and a not insignificant cost; having workers in to do most of it and you will start to see why new boats can be so expensive. I suspect that some quotes for the bespoke work you mention will be more than £500 here and there and overall finances could be spread too thin. If you buy a shell and start trading on the 46'er whilst still living on it but then decide it isn't working out then you will have a fairly stark choice. 1) pay for two boats whilst trying to scrimp together to finish the fitout, 2) sell the shell (at a loss) and stay on the 46'er, or 3) sell the 46'er and camp out in the 60' shell until you finish it. If you can start trading on the 46' boat whilst living on it then I'd suggest trying that first to test the market and see if it will sustain the boat and pay for your time. If it does, great, the inconvenience of being cramped will have allowed you to put some extra money away for the bigger boat. If the business doesn't work out well then not too much is wasted on the boat front. If you are set on two boats and won't/can't start trading until the second boat is habitable then I would suggest a secondhand boat that is ready to cruise. You could then make changes to it as finances and time allow or even consider upgrading to new. If business doesn't work out then at least the choice seems a lot less painful than being halfway through a fitout as both boats will be useable and saleable.