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I could hardly disagree with Nick more on this one. The only part of Simon Greer's arguments I am unconvinced about are those around using the reservoirs and canals more as part of the water supply process. That's an area where I don't hae the knowledge or skills to know if it is a pipo-dream or actually has any validity in investigating. The whole of the rest of Simon Greer's open letter more or less exactly sums up what I feel, and is a message I would dearly like Richard Parry to take on board. It is more or less what I would have written myself, but I doubt I could have put it as well. My problem is that I really have no idea how many boaters feels as I do, and how many would side with Nick that this is worthless tosh. Unfortunately, despite all BW/CRT's varying attempts to engage boaters more, I suspect they really have no idea either. It would be really interesting to know, even if I find I am part of some minority, and most other people agree with Nick. I did wonder about trying to create a poll on this topic, but I suspect an awful lot of people are so laissez faire about such matters that they wouldn't even be bothered to read Simon's letter! That would be to ignore a large number of people elsewhere who have already strongly supported what Simon Greer has written. I hope Richard takes it very seriously as representing the views of us who really don't want the canals ending up as some kind of over-regulated Disneyland theme park, where canal-side developments are seen as far more important than their primary use for boating.

You do know the only way to know for sure is to do it? Seriously, if you've been thinking about it for 20 years, stop thinking. Buy the boat (if not this one, then keep looking. Other boats are available..) If it doesn't work out, or you hate it you can always sell it again, or even buy another boat that suits you better?That's not a mistake, or a failure, or a weakness. It's part of self discovery, of finding out what you want and how you want to live. There isn't a price on that. Yes. There will be "what have I done?" moments. And "I hate this" and "Why has all my money gone to the chandlery and Toolstation?" and "why am I sticking my arm in a freeing canal cutting bits of abandoned sofa off my prop when all I really want is a nice cup of tea and maybe some cake?", and a million other things. Starcoaster has a better list than anyone of things nobody tells you: http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=44221&page=1 Plenty of people try boats, and decide its not for them. Every one of those things on that list has probably put someone off at some point. Maybe one of them will make some of us quit at some point in the future. Maybe we all will. Maybe CRT will stop letting us put boats on them there canals because theyre dangerous or unsightly or get in the way of cyclists. Who knows what the future holds? But thats not what you're really asking. We can't tell you why you'd hate it any more than we can tell you why you'd love it, because we all make our own priorities and wants and needs. Some of us have widebeams or dishwashers or pumpouts, and others of us hate every one of those things we've mostly got our own, fiercely held, opinions about every one of those things. We can't tell you what you're going to find works for you (although that won't stop a fair few people trying..) The only way to find out is to do it for yourself. Stop thinking about it. Buy a boat. If you decide you hate it, sell it and start thinking about what else you'd like to do and go do that instead. Then buy another boat.

Oh, PS. Starry, we've never met, perhaps we never will.But it is clear to me you have accumulated an impressive collection of emotional bruises over the course of this thread. You have behaved with dignity and compassion throughout it. As far as I'm concerned, anyone you count as a friend is a very lucky human being. Regards, DaveGood

Another reminder that smoking is bad for you.

Why all this stuff about Adam being a Troll? I've never met him, don't know anything about him, but I have met others from this forum who have responded to his threads who have cheerfully admitted to me that they have "trolled" here in the past for their own amusement. I define a troll as someone whose intention is too disrupt and break up or sieze control of an online community in pursuit of personal, political or financial goals. Adam appears to be a little socially inept, but Betty Boo will would say the same about me. I view myself as having a short tolerance for rubbish and ignorance, particularly from those claiming to be fully functioning adults who are intellectually and morally my superior. Adams main fault was to post a compilation of images and videos of vintage and classic boats without giving proper credit to those whose original work it was. When this was (rightly) pointed out he got defensive, then forum members threatened to iniate legal action against him. In essence, all he did was spend hours compiling images and videos in an effort to provide something that would inform and entertain this forum, which is more then I, or most others here, have done for this community. Give the guy a break. Regards, DaveGood

Always strikes me as odd that the piss takers are only evident in the summer months. ;-)

The overtaking thing: recently someone asked if we wanted to overtake, we did. They proceeded to pull towards the left of the canal so, not being proud, we overtook using the greater space - on the right. There seemed no reason why he didn't pull to the right as expected, except for lack of knowledge. The blanking thing: this really annoys me. Why do people who don't quite know what to say to you just blank you instead of saying something? Anything! As we approached the lock at Etruria Jn to go down, there was a boat also approaching to go down from the Caldon direction. We were perhaps 50 yds closer so "our lock" as far as I was concerned. A woman appeared from below the lock and wound the top paddles. These locks are very deep so I presumed she was with a boat coming up. But doubt set in when the other boat kept coming and no boat appeared in the lock. I called to her "are you with that boat?" pointing. Blank. I called to the other boat "is she your crew"? Blank. After a further query in the end I got a nod so I said "you might as well go first then" which they did. I realised that she had taken the pedestrian short-cut between Caldon and T&M which is why she had appeared from below the lock. Afterwards she said she wasn't sure who had priority under those particular circumstances. I forbore to lecture her on just how annoying it is to be blanked even if unsure of the ground, especially as the question was a simple one to answer "are you with that boat" not "are you first or are we". Grrrr. Everyone hates being ignored, especially so pointedly.

Copyright theft is plain bloody arrogant and rude, apart from being illegal, even when it doesn't result in monetary loss. I write as another victim of such theft. MtB

It's less of an abomination and blot on the landscape than the acres of ambiguous and hard-to-interpret new CRT signage, at places like Thrupp and Cambrian Wharf. MtB (Spelling edit.)

Half of my above post vanished somehow between me writing it and it getting posted. If people here want to start a thread about how, what and which corporations own and contol the flow of information through the internet, that's a discussion for elsewhere, not here. As far as I'm concerned, it it is clear to me Adam meant no harm, intended no malice, and spent hours putting together something we might find both interesting and informative. Regards DaveGood.

You can be a complete arse sometimes, Mike! There are some people in all different categories of canal boaters that can give others who enjoy the same type of boats a bad name, and historic boating is no better or worse in this respect than many others. Rightly or wrongly, Sue Day enjoys a certain reputation, as this thread shows, but that doesn't mean we all deserve the same. I meet wide-beam owners acting like complete and smug tossers, (presumably because they also get a discounted license due to the anomaly where CRT charge only by length). Should I conclude that all wide-beam owners are like this? Well frankly I don't know, because most of them never go anywhere, do they?

That statement says it all to me. Eberspacher, Webasto, Mikuni - all crap as far as I'm concerned.

I cannot but admire your rugged determination in pursuit of such a doomed endeavour. There is a psychological category of person – vital to the persistence of all oppressive tyrannies – that has been revealed in a minority [thankfully] of recent contributors to this topic: those who possess a visceral need to BELIEVE in the unquestionable rightness of those wielding power over them. This class of person will always be impervious to any facts revealing the corruption of their masters. To them, if their masters have taken extreme action against any of their fellows, then whatever the evidence of innocence, there MUST be some undisclosed contrary evidence [to which the authority alone is privy] that fully justifies an otherwise obvious abuse of power. EmmaB #172 asked the obvious question as to how it could be considered the boater in my example ended up on CaRT’s radar – the answer proffered: “It isn’t for doing the right thing that’s for sure” [!?] What was the wrong thing? as others asked - ??? The ensuing regurgitated debate here - over the lawfulness or otherwise of new twists on the ‘rules’ - rather bypasses the facts in the case I evidenced. There the boater had done, like Naughty Cal and most others, nothing wrong, marginal, or ‘piss-taking’. He likewise had absolutely NO history with CaRT, having entered their jurisdiction only 2 days prior to receiving an illegal s.8. He was, in short, just exactly the class of boater pretended to by Naughty Cal; someone who had never given occasion to light up CaRT’s radar. But to the critics you seek to enlighten it can never make any difference. To sufferers of this particular psychosis, any criticism of the authority, however reasoned, evidenced or constructive, HAS TO BE a 'CaRT-bashing' of the guilty. If CaRT have targeted you, then no question exists: you are a 'piss-taking' abuser of the 'rules' deserving everything coming to you. I found precisely the same knee-jerk reaction in my own case, and the eventual vindication by the penultimate court in the land has made not the slightest dent in the critics' mindless convictions.

It should have been there whilst taking on water, then move off. Not moving off 10 minutes after it had been taking on water. Therefore there should be no need to breast up. Being a "non-standard" boat it is particularly difficult to breast up to and clamber around. Yes I agree that the chap's hose was too short, but of course it would have been fine without the obstruction. Presumably you think a physical fitness test should be required as part of the BSS and any old codgers who can't stand on one leg on a narrow, wet wooden gunnel with nothing to hold on to should have their certificates revoked? That should cut down on congestion!

All this pompous outrage will be from people who have never taped a record, copied a CD or downloaded a movie from the Internet? Or send copies of pictures to their friends on Facebook? Or copied images of engines from ebay? Pathetic.