Morco F11 Room-sealed fitting

[raym]

I’m looking for some advice on this one from those of you with more experience…

 

After our Paloma PH-5-3F water heater failed a BSS check, we have just had a Morco F11-E room-sealed water heater professionally fitted to our narrowboat as a replacement. The boatyard have fitted the manufacturers vertical flue which, as fitted, protrudes about 21” above the cabin roof and consequently is about 6’8” above the waterline - too high for many overbridges, so the boat is unuseable on canals. I’ve tried contacting Morco but like others on postings you cannot get past the switchboard, though they tried to be helpful, so we seem to be trapped between the boatyards interpretation of manufacturers fitting requirements and satisfying relevant regulations.

 

Does anyone have any experience with these heaters and how they are fitted to comply with the safety/gas legislation and BSS and also keep within the 6’ height limit – essentially this means no more than about 10” above the cabin roof, ideally less – our Paloma flue was only about 5” above the roofline.

 

Is there a minimum flue length – the manufacturers information does not appear to state one?

The manufacturers have a horizontal flue has anyone used this?

Is there anything anywhere about flueing standards and what do BSS examiners look for??

Has anyone had work like this done?

Is a room-sealed heater mandatory for this type of application now?? I see from some previous postings that it may not be.

 

Ray

[alan_fincher]

I can't really comment on the balanced flue Morco F11E model other than I have been told by more than one chandlery that they are very hard to sell to the narrowboat market because....

 

1) They are massively more expensive than their open-flued equivalents.

2) They require a permanent 240 volt supply.

3) The flues supplied are unsuitable for narrowboats, (something you seem to be confirming, unfortunately).

 

There is no longer any BSS restriction on fitting an open flued instantaneous heater on an existing boat, either to replace an existing unit, or as new fit. (There was for a while, but I understand it got removed once they accepted that the balanced flue models were not a practical alternative).

 

However....

 

1) A professional installers code of practice, (or whatever it is called) doesn't allow them to fit them (Certainly true when it was CORGI, and I believe the same now registration is GasSafe). You can fit yourself, if you are a "competant person", but an LPG certifed enginner cannot fit one for you professionally.

2) They still say they need a 60 cm flue, overall - often hard to achieve.

3) The small print on them does say some places they should not be installed, including (IIRC) "in confined spaces".

 

A BSS inspector's main action is to check they are burning cleanly, and to do a "spill test". They place a kind of smouldering splint near it, wafting out smoke, and expect this to be drawn in by the running heater, and up the chimney. If instead it blows around the cabin, they would be unhappy. A long flue makes it more likely this test will be passed.

 

I hope however you can get satisfaction with what you have, as by the time you have had it installed, you must have spent a small fortune.

 

I found that sometimes Morco would answer a query promptly by e-mail, but at other times they would not - luck of the draw, it seemed.

 

I have to say I have never heard of anyone with that balanced flue model installed, but maybe someone on here has, and can help more.

[Speedwheel]

You can replace it with a Morco D61b. Don't bother with the F11. They are very difficult to fit into boats and are really designed for the static caravan market. The D61b is also around half the price at £180ish compared to £400ish for the F11.

 

If you are replacing and existing heater then it will pass BSS. (but I believe you can't put them on new builds)

 

 

EDIT - This one http://www.midlandchandlers.co.uk/MORCO-D6...ONLY_A1B57.aspx

Edited September 6, 2009 by Satellite

[alan_fincher]

The problem being that Ray has already paid for....

 

1) The balanced flue type

2) The presumably extra cost flue, (possibly the wrong alternative of the two available)

3) A boatyard to fit it.

 

I agree a D61B would have been the obvious replacement, but I'm assuming he was advised they could not, or would not fit ?

 

Presumably if Ray didn't feel "competent" (as the regs say he must be) to replace it himself in the first place, he wouldn't feel so now.

 

I don't think a GasSafe certified LPG engineer would get involved in the installation of a D61B, despite the BSS now being prepared to allow them.

 

It's the old Catch 22, unfortunately.

 

I think having spent the dosh, de needs to try and resolve fluing arrangements so the boat can pass under canal bridges. More accurately the ruddy boatyard should do this, at no futher cost to him.

 

These F11E are displayed in chandleries, but usually look like they have sat there for years. We really need to hear from someone who has one successfully in use in a narrowboat, without it limiting their choice of canal due to air draft issues.

 

Anybody, please ?

[Speedwheel]

We get people from the trade (gas safe/corgi resistered) coming in to buy the D61b to install for customers. (whether they are doing it legally I don't know!)

 

We also have the F11 in and as you say it has been there for a while. I can only remeber selling one (to a guy wanting it for a static caravan)

 

With the F11 (to the best of my knowledge) they have to be used with the flue in order to work properly so there is no way of cutting it down or using an alternative. I guess you just have to remove the flue and turn it off when cruising.

[WotEver]

I guess you just have to remove the flue and turn it off when cruising.

 

I was about to ask if this would be a possibility when I saw you'd typed it. So how would OP go about doing this? Presumably the boat yard would have to make some changes to the fitment to make it removable?

 

Personally, I feel that the boatyard have sold something patently unfit for purpose (it's been fitted to a narrowboat and now the narrowboat can't cruise) and they should address the matter by changing it for something that is suitable. However, I have no legal knowledge, it's simply my own opinion.

 

Tony

[alan_fincher]

I guess you just have to remove the flue and turn it off when cruising.

 

I was about to ask if this would be a possibility when I saw you'd typed it. So how would OP go about doing this? Presumably the boat yard would have to make some changes to the fitment to make it removable?

I've never examined one of these, and don't know how it works.

 

But if it's a balanced flue like on a domestic gas boiler, then what is being called the flue must in fact be two separate tubes, one where the combustion air gets drawn in, and the other where the exhaust air is expelled.

 

I'm assuming it's two concentric tubes ?

 

If so, any attempt to put a break point in the middle would surely result in two different tubes that need to join together in a fairly gas-tight way when you "put the chimney on".

 

Unlike a conventional open-flued Morco, where the flue is just a chimney, you can't surely just bung on a roof collar and a boat type chimney ?

 

I suspect this is why people don't often fit them to cruising narrowboats, and why the BSS has relented on the use of what they see as a less safe design.

[WotEver]

... any attempt to put a break point in the middle would surely result in two different tubes that need to join together in a fairly gas-tight way when you "put the chimney on".

 

Indeed, which is why I asked "How?" I was wondering if there was some magic balanced coupler that I'd never seen before.

 

Tony

[ayeaye]

Indeed, which is why I asked "How?" I was wondering if there was some magic balanced coupler that I'd never seen before.

 

Tony

 

We have the F11 on our boat dont know what they call the flu but its a strange shape my friend went to the Morco factory in Hull to get it and passed bss ok, must say though I dont like it only firing up with mains electric as it means you have to have your inverter on Bren

[paulcatchpole]

I've never examined one of these, and don't know how it works.

 

But if it's a balanced flue like on a domestic gas boiler, then what is being called the flue must in fact be two separate tubes, one where the combustion air gets drawn in, and the other where the exhaust air is expelled.

 

I'm assuming it's two concentric tubes ?

 

If so, any attempt to put a break point in the middle would surely result in two different tubes that need to join together in a fairly gas-tight way when you "put the chimney on".

 

If it's like our gas boiler, you're right, it's two concentric flues. On non-condensing kit, one is usually metal, t'other metal or plastic. Our condensing boiler emits such low-temp output that the whole assembly is plastic. I've dinged ours once, on a protruding lock-gate-walkway, but otherwise it's surviving. Good job too, as the flue assembly is about 100ukp for a standard vertical one.

 

Ours goes into a socket on top of the boiler, then there's a wrap-around metal 'clamp' about 100mm tall, with a rubber seal coating inside, which just screws together with two screws. We plan to remove it that way if ever needed for anything very low - and it's just slide out upwards out of its flashing on the roof.

 

There's nothing on ours to stop you physically shortening the flue, although the instructions state very carefully that it's not to be done. We've just mounted the boiler far enough down the wall inside to make the outside bit as short as possible! The total flue length is under 1m.

 

PC

[WotEver]

There's nothing on ours to stop you physically shortening the flue, although the instructions state very carefully that it's not to be done.

 

I wonder if that's specific to that boiler and/or why they state that. An email to the manufacturer could be worthwhile. I just did some Googling and one boiler I came across (Gledhill High Efficiency Condensing Boiler) stated "minimum flue length 0.15m + terminal", so it's obviously not a universal rule.

 

OP - I suggest you ask if the flue can be shortened.

 

Tony

[NBMike]

I emailed Morco and they say that the black part of the vertical flue cannot be shortened from its 530mm length. I've suggested that they re-design it if they want to sell any to boat owners. (And its (The Vertical flue) listed at £117 plus Vat Oh but they include free delivery in that!)

Mike

 

I’m looking for some advice on this one from those of you with more experience…

 

After our Paloma PH-5-3F water heater failed a BSS check, we have just had a Morco F11-E room-sealed water heater professionally fitted to our narrowboat

Ray

 

I'd be interested to know why it failed its BSS exam. If it was spillage it may well have been possible to fit a different flue to enable it to comply.

Bit academic now I guess!

Mike

Edited September 8, 2009 by NBMike

[paulcatchpole]

I wonder if that's specific to that boiler and/or why they state that. An email to the manufacturer could be worthwhile. I just did some Googling and one boiler I came across (Gledhill High Efficiency Condensing Boiler) stated "minimum flue length 0.15m + terminal", so it's obviously not a universal rule.

 

OP - I suggest you ask if the flue can be shortened.

 

Tony

 

That's a good question! For sake of completeness, the boiler is a Vokera Mynute 12VHE.

 

From the installation instructions:

 

IMPORTANT

The vertical flue terminal is 1.0 metre in length and cannot

be cut; therefore it may be necessary to adjust the height

of the appliance to suit or use a suitable extension.

 

PC

[WotEver]

Hmmm... "therefore it may be necessary to adjust the height of the appliance to suit or use a suitable extension" ???

 

An extension would, umm, extend it - what has that to do with cutting it? I think there might be more to this than appears at first glance.

 

I wonder if they're saying "it can't be cut" because the structure of it would fall apart? For instance, if the inner tube is only connected to the outer tube at the ends, then 'it can't be cut' because that would affect the integrity of the balanced flue as a double-skinned unit.

 

Again, asking the manufacturer would be my first choice.

 

Tony

[RobinJ]

After our Paloma PH-5-3F water heater failed a BSS check, we have just had a Morco F11-E room-sealed water heater professionally fitted to our narrowboat as a replacement. The boatyard have fitted the manufacturers vertical flue which, as fitted, protrudes about 21” above the cabin roof and consequently is about 6’8” above the waterline - too high for many overbridges, so the boat is unuseable on canals. I’ve tried contacting Morco but like others on postings you cannot get past the switchboard, though they tried to be helpful, so we seem to be trapped between the boatyards interpretation of manufacturers fitting requirements and satisfying relevant regulations.

My Paloma has just passed again and there is a vast difference between the way different examiners treat them, but in general, provided there is sufficient ventilation and the fitting is with the parameters of the manufaturers specifications, there should not be a problem.

Was the reason for failure identified?

Does anyone have any experience with these heaters and how they are fitted to comply with the safety/gas legislation and BSS and also keep within the 6’ height limit – essentially this means no more than about 10” above the cabin roof, ideally less – our Paloma flue was only about 5” above the roofline.

Is there a minimum flue length – the manufacturers information does not appear to state one?

Yes there is and it should be specified in the installation instructions, however this may have been retained by the installers.

 

Many people fit appliances lower than usual to accomodate the minimum flue length, but this should not be necessary.

The idea of balanced flue is basically the flow of air in is balanced by the exhaust gases flowing out (balance here does not mean equal). There has to be sufficient air flow to allow any burner to operate at full capacity and the exhaust created has a larger volume, so the inner flue is generally bigger (surface area wise) than the outer air intake.

It sounds like what you need is a method of separating the two parts of the flue once it is above the roof line!

[paulcatchpole]

Hmmm... "therefore it may be necessary to adjust the height of the appliance to suit or use a suitable extension" ???

 

An extension would, umm, extend it - what has that to do with cutting it? I think there might be more to this than appears at first glance.

 

I wonder if they're saying "it can't be cut" because the structure of it would fall apart? For instance, if the inner tube is only connected to the outer tube at the ends, then 'it can't be cut' because that would affect the integrity of the balanced flue as a double-skinned unit.

 

Again, asking the manufacturer would be my first choice.

 

Tony

 

Most of the docs deal with how to get the flue length long enough, rather than short enough, so deal with extensions. Not sure why the 8m maximum should be a great problem unless you live in a tall house though.

 

The actual structure would be sound enough to cut, the inner is supported along the length at close intervals - don't have a photo to hand though!

 

You're dead right though, the manufacturer would be the ones to ask!

 

 

PC

[WotEver]

I emailed Morco and they say that the black part of the vertical flue cannot be shortened from its 530mm length.

 

But no explanation as to why, I suppose?

 

T.

[NBMike]

Errr ..........computer says no!