Should i have the welds tested?

[kayak]

Hi all.

 

I've placed an order for a hull only with a fitted engine to fit out on the water. i should be taking delivery in April(all being well). would anyone advise that i have the welds dye penetrant tested before i accept the boat. i fully intend to inspect the shell myself before i accept it, especially the welds, but i know from experiance that a weld the looks good doesnt always mean it is. is it usual practise to have welds checked/tested by an expert before taking deivery? Bad welds in the main cabin area would be easy to spot but i imagine that any leaks around/under the engine would be hard to find as would any under the bow area. Any area would be greatly recieved!

 

PH

[steelaway]

Hi all.

 

I've placed an order for a hull only with a fitted engine to fit out on the water. i should be taking delivery in April(all being well). would anyone advise that i have the welds dye penetrant tested before i accept the boat. i fully intend to inspect the shell myself before i accept it, especially the welds, but i know from experiance that a weld the looks good doesnt always mean it is. is it usual practise to have welds checked/tested by an expert before taking deivery? Bad welds in the main cabin area would be easy to spot but i imagine that any leaks around/under the engine would be hard to find as would any under the bow area. Any area would be greatly recieved!

 

PH

Hi There

I think you have to trust the builder. He will have built one that leaked before and wont want another. You will see any leaks when it is put in the water, check everywhere any way. Most builders trust to dye pens and attention to detail.

I built mine on dry land but ensured that there was a clear passage under the floor for any water to drain to the back and left two ventilation slots in the floor of the rear cupboards. (I was also worried about the S/S water tank leaking) I can now check for any water through these slots with a soft stick of wood. I know it works because I had to pump it out after a shower leak flooded the bathroom.

I have never heard of a weld tester.

 

Alex

[kayak]

Thanks for that Alex. Its given me a bit of confidence (not that i dont trust the builder!) Coming form a welding background weld testing is a fairly common thing especially on things such as lifting lugs and etc. Most weld testing in my experiance is done by a third party so that a non bias opinion is given. i like the idea of leaving an easy route for any water between the ballast with a purpose made "hatch" for inspection/pumping.

 

Thanks for your reply.

[dor]

Unless you really know what you are doing and what you are looking at I would get a surveyor to check over the hull.

 

Are you sure the ribs meet current standards for size and spacing? are the welds in the right place and the right size? Is the size of the hull correct, e.g. width? Does the hull meet current standards? - especially important if you want to build up a certificate of compliance.

 

And yes, it is worth checking the welds with penetration dye, especially around the stern.

[kayak]

Seems like a sound bit of advice. I am quite keen to get it surveyed before accepting it but its like any question you ask, you get differant answers! Some poeple have told me i'm worrying about nothing but id rather make sure its ok while it's still in the builders yard. I take you point about "especially around the stearn" i would imagine that this would be a hard place to get into to rectify anything especially with an engine sitting in it as mine wil have!

 

Cheers.

[Gary Peacock]

Weld testing is much the norm these days with most builders, all that bollocks about boats leaking and scabbing up is just that.

 

But saying that in a modern built hull which must have at least the minimum amount of conformity to the RCD (Under law), for a builder testing welds is probably the least added expense. I would be much more interested in the general construction and the legally required paperwork that should be supplied with the hull this is where the builders can make a large saving if they choose to build on the lets just say the "dubious" side of the fence.

[blackrose]

A surveyor will check many things, but I don't think they check the welds - do they?

[Gary Peacock]

I think you need to consider what you are testing for, Dye Penetration testing is cheap and easy it proves the weld is watertight nothing more. It does not prove the integrity of the weld or if the weld is appropriately used.

 

Far too much emphasis is put on welding in my view, yes it is important but at the end of the day it is about holding the bits together not the actual design.

 

Poor engineering design is a far more common practise than poor welding in my view.

Edited January 23, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[Teadaemon]

A surveyor will check many things, but I don't think they check the welds - do they?

 

They should do if you ask them to and the welds are accessible - if they won't then it suggests that maybe they're not the most appropriate surveyor to work on that particular boat.

[1066]

Far too much emphasis is put on welding in my view, yes it is important but at the end of the day it is about holding the bits together not the actual design.

 

Exactly .... and the first decent collision with a bridge etc can put a strain on even the best welds!

[blackrose]

They should do if you ask them to and the welds are accessible - if they won't then it suggests that maybe they're not the most appropriate surveyor to work on that particular boat.

I've followed a couple of surveyors around and watched them at work but never seen them check any welds. Both were well known surveyors. Do both sides of the weld have to be accessible? Has anyone else actually seen a surveyor check welds?

Poor engineering design is a far more common practise than poor welding in my view.

What sort of things are we talking about? Any examples?

[Gary Peacock]

I've followed a couple of surveyors around and watched them at work but never seen them check any welds. Both were well known surveyors. Do both sides of the weld have to be accessible? Has anyone else actually seen a surveyor check welds?What sort of things are we talking about? Any examples?

 

This was the worst example I have seen HERE

 

But basically there are still boats out there and new ones being built that are just steel plate boxes constructed without any form scantling design, some are done through total ignorance by good engineering companies who thought a quick buck could be made out of knocking out a few boat hulls while others are built that way to cut costs and maximise profits.

 

I keep saying it but all builders are required by law to produce a Technical file and hold it on record for 10 years. This file will demonstrate how compliance with Section 3 Integrity And Structural Requirements of the Recreation Craft Directive (Which is a Crown Statutory Instrument (ie Law)) has been achieved.

 

This law is not at the builders discretion you abide by the law or break the law. Due to lack of enforcement some builders break the law for their own gains others plead ignorance of the law.

 

This documentation is required even if you yourself aren't interested in CE marking the boat and are purchasing a hull etc.

 

A VERY SIMPLE TEST WHEN MEETING POTENTIAL BOATBUILDERS IS TO ASK TO VIEW THE TECHNICAL FILE FOR A BOAT THEY ARE BUILDING OR HAVE BUILT.

 

If the builder doesn't know what you are talking about or can't produce the file runaway with your money very quickly knowing you have just escaped from handing your money to a cowboy to build you a lemon of a boat!

 

It is that simple but boaters being boaters don't do it and end up crying in their beer and blaming everyone in spitting distance for there own stupidity!

Edited January 23, 2008 by Gary Peacock

[blackrose]

A VERY SIMPLE TEST WHEN MEETING POTENTIAL BOATBUILDERS IS TO ASK TO VIEW THE TECHNICAL FILE FOR A BOAT THEY ARE BUILDING OR HAVE BUILT.

 

If the builder doesn't know what you are talking about or can't produce the file runaway with your money very quickly knowing you have just escaped from handing your money to a cowboy to build you a lemon of a boat!

 

It is that simple but boaters being boaters don't do it and end up crying in their beer and blaming everyone in spitting distance for there own stupidity!

 

I wonder how many new build owners asked to see the technical file for their boats? I know I didn't...

 

Apart from stupidity I think it comes down to the fact that a brand new boat is probably a once-in-a-lifetime purchase and most of us don't know what we're doing. This then gives the cowboys ample opportunity to take advantage of our ignorance and a few unfortunates get stung.

Edited January 23, 2008 by blackrose

[kayak]

Thats alot for the info/advice, i appreciate it. Its my first boat build (as if you cant tell!! ) and although i have no intensions of selling the boat for the first 5 years and all that i would still like to get the boat CE marked for my own piece of mind. I spoke to a very helpfull lady at my local BW office and she told me that i could licence the boat and keep it in the water for the first year (so long as it was insured). I will get the annex 3 declaration from my hull builder (who will also fit the engine) and i will also have it surveyed before i make the final payment and let them put the boat on a lorry. does this sound like a good course of action? i have tried to follow all of the RCD talk and BSS jargon but am getting lost. when my boat is finnished how exactly do i get my CE mark? where does it link in with a boat safty check?

 

sorry for all the question but i am a newbie!!!!!!

[Gary Peacock]

I wonder how many new build owners asked to see the technical file for their boats? I know I didn't...

 

Apart from stupidity I think it comes down to the fact that a brand new boat is probably a once-in-a-lifetime purchase and most of us don't know what we're doing. This then gives the cowboys ample opportunity to take advantage of our ignorance and a few unfortunates get stung.

 

Very true but that one simple little question can tell you masses about a builder just by their reaction.

 

It is a very simple confirmation of how they operate, if they haven't got the paperwork or don't know what you're talking about then going any further is foolish regardless of what recommendations or reputation they have.

 

The response of "We are just starting doing it now, it's all new" is rubbish it's been in force nearly 10 years so if they were to be prosecuted for their production over that time paying the fines could likely involve the use of your hard earned cash handed to them to build a boat with.

[tomsk]

I wonder how many new build owners asked to see the technical file for their boats? I know I didn't...

 

Apart from stupidity I think it comes down to the fact that a brand new boat is probably a once-in-a-lifetime purchase and most of us don't know what we're doing. This then gives the cowboys ample opportunity to take advantage of our ignorance and a few unfortunates get stung.

 

No, It just comes down to stupidity.

[blackrose]

Thats alot for the info/advice, i appreciate it. Its my first boat build (as if you cant tell!! ) and although i have no intensions of selling the boat for the first 5 years and all that i would still like to get the boat CE marked for my own piece of mind. I spoke to a very helpfull lady at my local BW office and she told me that i could licence the boat and keep it in the water for the first year (so long as it was insured). I will get the annex 3 declaration from my hull builder (who will also fit the engine) and i will also have it surveyed before i make the final payment and let them put the boat on a lorry. does this sound like a good course of action? i have tried to follow all of the RCD talk and BSS jargon but am getting lost. when my boat is finnished how exactly do i get my CE mark? where does it link in with a boat safty check?

 

sorry for all the question but i am a newbie!!!!!!

 

Is sounds like you're buying a sailaway. If it was a finished boat it would come fully RCD compliant and CE marked and as you say, your sailaway will come with an Annexe 3 declaration of conformity for a partly completed craft which covers you for your first year.

 

You then have two possible routes: The BSS where you fit out your boat making reference to The Essential Guide as you go. http://www.boatsafetyscheme.com/site/2nded...alGuide_212.asp

* You can only do this if you are sure that you will not be selling your boat within 5 years - this I think, is to stop professional builders and fitters from using this as a loophole to avoid the RCD.

 

You get a BSS inspector onboard every 4 years and get him to inspect your installations. He can only inspect what's onboard, so for example, I still hadn't installed any gas after the first year even though I had an unconnected gas hob sitting in a worktop. He was fine with that - easier for him and cheaper for me. It's then up to you to keep your boat safe between inspections.

 

The other route you can take is making your boat fully RCD compliant. I don't know much about it as I haven't done it, but I think it's a bit more involved - there's a different guide and some paperwork perhaps? Chris Polley (another forum member who I'm sure will be along soon), is the one to speak to as he's doing it at the moment.

Edited January 23, 2008 by blackrose

[ChrisPy]

As predicted by the Black Rose of the Lower Thames, I'm paying attention.

 

If you are familiar with technical documents, doing a self-certified RCD Declaration of Conformity need not be too difficult.

 

1. If you send me a PM with your e-mail adress I can send you my own DoC form and the technical file summary document that lists all the standards. You can plagiarise the document to suit your own circumstances.

 

2. Download the RCD requirements from the web. Just Google for 'RCD' and you will get lots of references. 'Canaljunction' also has some useful guidance from a boat surveyor. Some websites have the full text that includes a guide to what you need to do. The British Marine Federation has its own code that is more than sufficient to ensure compliance, but you don't need to do it that way. You only have to follow the RCD requirements and then certify that you have done so. At present, for a boat intended for Category D (inland sheltered waters) nobody else gets involved in assessing or certifying your boat. However if you ever sell the boat with the DoC as documentary evidence of compliance (required within 5 years of completion) and it doesn't comply the buyer could bring in the Trading Standards people.

 

3. Make an appointment with the business centre at your local library and read/copy/memorise/download the relevant parts of the ISO standards that apply, as far as the copyright and the librarian allows. I was allowed to download/print 10% of the text. If you are familiar with ISO standards, you will know that all of the technical compliance data is contained within exactly 10% of the pages. Buying the standards from the RYA or the BMF will cost you several hundred pounds.

 

4. Use the standards as your guide to critical systems - particularly electrics AC and DC, and fire prevention and escape requirements. Obviously you must comply. In other respects, for example LPG installations and fuel installations, following the BSS requirements fulfills most of the requirements. In many cases you will recognise a commonality between the ISO standards and the BSS requirements. You should ensure that all components are CE marked.

 

5. You will need to do some calculations to confirm stability and freeboard to 'downflooding' entries. i.e. to confirm that with the maximum number of people on board. all drunk and trying to rock the boat, that the waterline will remain well below the hull side vents to the engine room, etc. Similar in a cross wind. You need familiarity with heeling moments, centres of gravity and buoyancy, etc. to do that. Any mechanical or civil engineer with mathematical ability will be able to help you with that if needed.

 

6. You need to write an Owner's Manual. For convenience mine includes all the manuals from component suppliers, as Appendices. Make sure you have the Annexe 3 declaration from the hull supplier, along with his contribution to the Owner's Manual. I had to ask - it didn't come with the boat and might never have been issued if I hadn't asked).

 

7. You need to get a HIN (Hull Identification Number) from the RYA, and stamp the number on the hull. I have given up trying to use a stamp, so I bought a 10mm spherical burr and am grinding the number in (on the engine bearers). The same number is also engraved on your builder's plate that can be purchased for under a tenner from a good swindler's. If your boat is like mine you will have a plate welded to the fuel tank stating that the tank has been pressure tested and the builder's hull number is stamped on. (Note for an Appendix 3 compliance sailaway, the hull builder's hull number is not the same as your HIN. You are the builder - the hull supplier is only a component suopplier). In my case the plate was welded on but there was no number. You can stamp/engrave your HIN number on that plate as well if you want.

 

8. Sign your own DoC and smile. You need to show your DoC to the licensing authority (in my case Bristol Harbour, for most it will be EA or BW) to get a licence, but you don't have to lodge it with any compliance authority.

Edited January 25, 2008 by chris polley

[kayak]

Wow.

 

Thanks alot for that. Clear and concise, thats what i like! Thats a weight off my shoulders knowing that i can do the thing myself. Many thanks for the offer, i'll PM you shortly when i figure out how to do it!

 

Great Stuff.

 

P&H.

[Rob@BSSOffice]

Wow.

 

Thanks alot for that. Clear and concise, thats what i like! Thats a weight off my shoulders knowing that i can do the thing myself. Many thanks for the offer, i'll PM you shortly when i figure out how to do it!

 

Great Stuff.

 

P&H.

 

Chris and Mike (Blackrose) have summed it fairly well. By way of confirmation of one of Chris' points, at one of the boat shows, an owner told me he had used Manchester Library service to get all the Brirish Standards and ISO's he needed. Having said that, the several hundred pounds for the 'all signing and dancing' CD Rom with all the standards on it from the BMF, usually represents a small fraction of any new boat build costs. Alternatively, you can engage a marine surveyor specialising in CE marking/RCD work to hand-hold you through the build.

 

Two minor points - HIN is out CIN is in - no not naughty stuff, but it is now a Craft Identity Number (CIN)

 

You can decide when the craft is substantially complete. Therefore if you are coming up the end of the first year and haven't yet fitted the last appliance or painted the cabin walls, don't worry, you can prepare the Manual and make the Declaration (accurately).

 

Please note, if your project goes past the year licensed on the Annex IIIa and the boat isn't CE marked with no Decalaration, then this is problematic. A BSS examiner cannot carry out an examination on boat intended to be CE marked but not yet achieved as this put the examiner at risk under provision in the UK law.

 

However, getting it CE marked means you don't need a BSS certificate for the next four years. So it pays not to delay.

 

BTW, for the sake of the forum folk I hope you are planning a build-blog on here

 

Good luck and regards

 

Rob@BSS Office

[kayak]

Thanks for that Rob.

 

I was planning a blog for a bit of fun but ive never done one before so no laughing at my terrible spelling and grammar. Thanks to all who have put helpfull comments, no doubt i shall start other posts when i get stuck and cant find what im looking for. Look out for my blog soon!

 

BTW if anyone does know of a marine surveyor who will hold my hand a bit with the RCD that would be great, im in Leicestershire.

 

Cheers.

P&H

[Ray]

Try Trevor Whitling, although I'm told he's not the cheapest.

[Glenn]

When I was looking at using Liverpool boats they told me they no longer dye test!

My thoughts were what level of responsibility do they have if the boat does leak?

For example if the inverter was damaged,furniture ect do they pay for it to be replaced?

Are they liable?