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Halsey

Oil pressure issues

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13 hours ago, BWM said:

The end of many a Corsair or transit.

And the 2 litre Granada Consul and Capri.

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28 minutes ago, Tony Brooks said:

Not Lister specific but has anyone checked that the oil pressure relief valve is seating properly. The symptoms seem tpical of a leaking or stuck PRV. An easy check if external but much harder if internal.

It could well be.  I'm not very familiar with those HR's HA's but I think the relief valve might be in the crankcase behind the crankcase door, similar to the smaller, SR, ST's, on the end of a pipe from a vertical piston oil pump and should be get attable if there's decent access to that side of the engine.  Generally these piston pumps pulse pressure immediatly the engine turns, by handle or starter motor and I expect the HR should too. I have an capilliary tube oil gauge from off an old Cooper Mini, ''Smiths'' on my ST2 which needle pulses the instant the engine turns and fly's up to its running pressure in a second when it starts. The older LR's SR's ran at a lower pressure but still pulsed pressure the instant the engine turned.

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2 minutes ago, bizzard said:

It could well be.  I'm not very familiar with those HR's HA's but I think the relief valve might be in the crankcase behind the crankcase door, similar to the smaller, SR, ST's, on the end of a pipe from a vertical piston oil pump and should be get attable if there's decent access to that side of the engine.  Generally these piston pumps pulse pressure immediatly the engine turns, by handle or starter motor and I expect the HR should too. I have an capilliary tube oil gauge from off an old Cooper Mini, ''Smiths'' on my ST2 which needle pulses the instant the engine turns and fly's up to its running pressure in a second when it starts. The older LR's SR's ran at a lower pressure but still pulsed pressure the instant the engine turned.

Mine certainly isn’t doing that - I think it is internal and await comments from others in the know.

 

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Just now, Halsey said:

Mine certainly isn’t doing that - I think it is internal and await comments from others in the know.

 

I meant internal and lying on the crankcase floor with a gause filter on the end,  behind the removeable lower crankcase door which I think those engines have. I may be wrong, yes, so wait for better advise from someone more conversant with them.  A good flush and fresh oil might do the trick if the relief valve is sticking off its seat.

  • Happy 1

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The Oil relief valve is on tight hand side inside crank case cover just below the door you will see the pipework it's fastened underneath the pipe I would personally remove the whole section  that goes up to the centre main bearing and the feed pipe on the end of the timing case cover to extract the lot rather than struggle to get in with a spanner and drop it 

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31 minutes ago, Woottonlaser said:

The Oil relief valve is on tight hand side inside crank case cover just below the door you will see the pipework it's fastened underneath the pipe I would personally remove the whole section  that goes up to the centre main bearing and the feed pipe on the end of the timing case cover to extract the lot rather than struggle to get in with a spanner and drop it 

Thanks for this - Is this relatively easy and can it be done with oil in - as they are relatively cheap items would you simply replace it anyway - am I going to have any gasket issues that also need to be replaced

I will do it back at base after I’ve sorted the gauge piping also then no cruising pressures..........??

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39 minutes ago, Halsey said:

Thanks for this - Is this relatively easy and can it be done with oil in - as they are relatively cheap items would you simply replace it anyway - am I going to have any gasket issues that also need to be replaced

I will do it back at base after I’ve sorted the gauge piping also then no cruising pressures..........??

I would drain off the oil as you will be taking off the oil pipe to the right side so will be oil at around that level and always a nice idea to take the oil strainer off the bottom of the sump and inspect the gauze too for peace of mind I will try and grab a couple of pics off my HA2 later to show If that is of any assistance to you? 

 

It's simply copper washers and a O ring in the external connector and a O ring where the pipe goes upto the centre bearing junction plate 

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23 hours ago, Halsey said:

As you were ........ I think it may be the oil pump which makes sense in relation to the previous owners reported comments BUT at the moment to check the old gauge I am using a modern durite mechanical gauge with literally 12 m of coiled very fine piping so will this be affecting the time taken which is actually about 20+ secs to get to 35 psi from cold ( just done it)  - what is involved if it is the oil pump, cost, logistics, exchange? Etc etc

FYI I am in the process of getting the fittings together to use the new durite with  the old v short length of original piping 

BFN

 

If you bled the pipe at the gauge end so the pipe is full of oil then the gauge should pretty much give an instantaneous pressure reading but if not and the pipe is full of air it will take time to compress that air to get a reading. How much time I have no idea. The lower the output of the pump the longer the time.

  • Greenie 1

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7 hours ago, Woottonlaser said:

I would drain off the oil as you will be taking off the oil pipe to the right side so will be oil at around that level and always a nice idea to take the oil strainer off the bottom of the sump and inspect the gauze too for peace of mind I will try and grab a couple of pics off my HA2 later to show If that is of any assistance to you? 

 

It's simply copper washers and a O ring in the external connector and a O ring where the pipe goes upto the centre bearing junction plate 

That would be good thanks

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Just to keep you up to date - I have now replumbed the new oil pressure valve with 12" of 1/4" piping and not the 12ft of micro which came with it and the difference is amazing it has gone from 25 secs to show full pressure to less than 2 secs so it doesn't look as though the oil pump is at fault!

I had already sourced a new oil pressure relief valve so I will fit that over the coming weeks (once I know how) and then report back

I have also started sorting the stupid exhaust which reduced down from 3.5" through the roof fitting via an adapter to a 2.5" pipe which can't have been good for gas flow!

Thanks for continued help/support

 

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Apologies for the delay in sorting the pictures it's been a busy week or so and took me a while to get time to trawl through the pictures to find what you need hopefully the attached pictures will help you shout out of you need anything else 

 

 

DSCN2166.JPG

DSCN2165.JPG

DSCN2163.JPG

DSCN2578.JPG

DSCN2568.JPG

DSCN2564.JPG

DSCN3582.JPG

DSCN3581.JPG

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Thanks,

 

I'm struggling to see which pipe on your last picture has the valve on the end of it - I assume its the one in the foreground which bends to the right and to make life easy I take it off at the "t" any surprises for me in doing this???

Where does the valve go off to as if I'm right with all the above its hidden in the picture

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Hi the last picture the valve is on the underside of the fitting on the right that accepts the connector pipe from the outside of the block it points vertically down to the Base of the sump pretty much in line with the torch in the picture 

 

All simple to dismantle I would personally take the whole thing out for ease of access the pipe with the t union on with the valve as getting in for the crank weights can be fiddly but everyone's different how they do stuff you may find just taking the valve off in situ easier than I did ? 

  • Greenie 1

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I have had it apart today but couldn't shift any of the relevant nuts partly due to a poor tool selection on the boat and also due to poor access and VERY tight fittings.

 

BUT I did manage to get at the fitting enough to agitate it and ensure it is springing freely which it now is - I didn't have time to run the engine for any length of time but it did appear to behave differently on a 20 minute run enough to make sure all was OK before I had to leave it. 

 

Might I have done enough as the spring action is working now.

 

The engine looked very clean internally and I couldn't detect any play on anything that moved!

 

If I need to go further at another time do I need to remove the external olive fittings on the outside of the block (bottom RH on your picture) to get the internal pipe free or does it come free simply by undoing the internal nut on the brass "t" joint 

 

Continued thanks...…………………...

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If by "the fitting" you mean the oil pressure relief valve and if by"it is springing freely" you mean the ball in the relief valve then if the valve did not move before but does now and things have improved it was probably stick open to a  degree so you probably have doen enough for now.

  • Happy 1

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Ideally, if you remove the relief valve unit the ball can be re-seated, re-mated with its seating, by.  Take it to bits, wash in paraffin or diesel fuel, clean the ball thoroughly. Stand the body upright on a really solid wooden surface, pop the ball in and with a length of non ferrous metal bar, brass will do fine, at least a 1/4'' thick and place it down squarely onto the ball, hold nice and steady and with a hammer give the brass rod ONE sharp tap, I repeat only ONE shap tap, anymore and you're likely to bu--er it up. This is an old wheese I and others use to re seat and correct oil delivery, water and steam clack valve ball seats.

Edited by bizzard

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52 minutes ago, bizzard said:

Ideally, if you remove the relief valve unit the ball can be re-seated, re-mated with its seating, by.  Take it to bits, wash in paraffin or diesel fuel, clean the ball thoroughly. Stand the body upright on a really solid wooden surface, pop the ball in and with a length of non ferrous metal bar, brass will do fine, at least a 1/4'' thick and place it down squarely onto the ball, hold nice and steady and with a hammer give the brass rod ONE sharp tap, I repeat only ONE shap tap, anymore and you're likely to bu--er it up. This is an old wheese I and others use to re seat and correct oil delivery, water and steam clack valve ball seats.

I have got a new valve but I just couldn't fit it with the tools to hand and now with what I've managed to do today I wonder if I need to - a trial run sometime next week should provide better information...………………..

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Now to conclude the successful end of this topic/story...………………..

 

Oil and filter changed, oil pressure gauge replaced with overhauled piping and fittings with some replacements, oil pressure relief valve "serviced", Fuel filter changed, spill rail flushed, strange external exhaust piping/chimney thrown away and replaced - the previous set up involved an external throat reducing the 3 1/4 pipe through the roof to a 2  1/4 chimney/pipe - which simply created backpressure and constrained the expulsion of the exhaust gasses!

 

So the conclusion is - the exhaust was constrained, the oil pressure gauge was faulty, the oil piping was definitely obstructed with sealant, the pressure relief valve was sticking and the spill rail was "gunged  up" - total cost less than £100 involving some of my time lots of help from here (thanks) and 1 1/2 hrs professional help today to "sign it off"  and finally bleed the fuel system which I found a challenge!

 

A good result ………………………...? 

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1 hour ago, Halsey said:

strange external exhaust piping/chimney thrown away and replaced - the previous set up involved an external throat reducing the 3 1/4 pipe through the roof to a 2  1/4 chimney/pipe - which simply created backpressure and constrained the expulsion of the exhaust gasses!
 

I'm surprised that an exhaust outlet 2 1/4" in diameter is considered a problem on an H series engine.

Surely just about all narrow boat installations f these beasts have a pipe diameter that is of that order of size throughout much of its length.

That's certainly true on both of my HA2 installations.

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2 hours ago, alan_fincher said:

I'm surprised that an exhaust outlet 2 1/4" in diameter is considered a problem on an H series engine.

Surely just about all narrow boat installations f these beasts have a pipe diameter that is of that order of size throughout much of its length.

That's certainly true on both of my HA2 installations.

I think it was more the fact that it was reduced down to that from the main exhaust system - certainly from my car racing days this is the exact opposite of what should be done to ensure gasses flow away maximizing performance and not creating back pressure

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On Tuesday, September 11, 2018 at 09:04, Halsey said:

Hi

My recently acquired HR2 which fundamentally runs well not using oil etc typically performs as follows - starts easily first time 100%, oil pressure on new capillary gauge rises to 35+, a little blue smoky when first pulling away but this calms down but it never entirely goes away after say 3 hrs use oil pressure stays around 20/25 on cruising speed BUT if idling can drop to 5 or less and when sitting whilst mooring up its almost 0 just very slightly picking up the revs restores 5-10 - thoughts??

Don’t want to spend but don’t want to damage anything either can I add any additives bearing in mind blackstone box?

Generally low oil pressure when hot on h series engines indicates excessive clearance in the main bearing/big end shells.if the journals are good and not out of round then a simple.ish shell replacement will sort that out.but having said that...some oil pressure is better than none.also if you use a good api cc morris 20/50 oil of low detergent spec then it will help a little when hot with oil pressure hence 50 grade ☺

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7 minutes ago, Orpheus 68A said:

Generally low oil pressure when hot on h series engines indicates excessive clearance in the main bearing/big end shells.if the journals are good and not out of round then a simple.ish shell replacement will sort that out.but having said that...some oil pressure is better than none.also if you use a good api cc morris 20/50 oil of low detergent spec then it will help a little when hot with oil pressure hence 50 grade ☺

Understood but no end float detectable at all and using Morris SAE 30 - I do think the main issue here was the faulty gauge and then the partially blocked piping which was actually quite bad

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On Tuesday, September 11, 2018 at 09:04, Halsey said:

Hi

My recently acquired HR2 which fundamentally runs well not using oil etc typically performs as follows - starts easily first time 100%, oil pressure on new capillary gauge rises to 35+, a little blue smoky when first pulling away but this calms down but it never entirely goes away after say 3 hrs use oil pressure stays around 20/25 on cruising speed BUT if idling can drop to 5 or less and when sitting whilst mooring up its almost 0 just very slightly picking up the revs restores 5-10 - thoughts??

Don’t want to spend but don’t want to damage anything either can I add any additives bearing in mind blackstone box?

Generally low oil pressure when hot on h series engines indicates excessive clearance in the main bearing/big end shells.if the journals are good and not out of round then a simple.ish shell replacement will sort that out.but having said that...some oil pressure is better than none.also if you use a good api cc morris 20/50 oil of low detergent spec then it will help a little when hot with oil pressure hence 50 grade ☺ glad you got it sorted.i did think that zulu had a ha2 not hr2 but i must be mistaken ☺

  • Greenie 1

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On Tuesday, September 11, 2018 at 09:04, Halsey said:

Hi

My recently acquired HR2 which fundamentally runs well not using oil etc typically performs as follows - starts easily first time 100%, oil pressure on new capillary gauge rises to 35+, a little blue smoky when first pulling away but this calms down but it never entirely goes away after say 3 hrs use oil pressure stays around 20/25 on cruising speed BUT if idling can drop to 5 or less and when sitting whilst mooring up its almost 0 just very slightly picking up the revs restores 5-10 - thoughts??

Don’t want to spend but don’t want to damage anything either can I add any additives bearing in mind blackstone box?

Generally low oil pressure when hot on h series engines indicates excessive clearance in the main bearing/big end shells.if the journals are good and not out of round then a simple.ish shell replacement will sort that out.but having said that...some oil pressure is better than none.also if you use a good api cc morris 20/50 oil of low detergent spec then it will help a little when hot with oil pressure hence 50 grade ☺ glad you got it sorted.i did think that zulu had a ha2 not hr2 but i must be mistaken ☺lovely people who had zulu.nice boat you have there ☺

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