Wet and Messy Bilges

[rusty69]

1 minute ago, Neil2 said:

Rusty - there should be small like quarter circle holes in the cross members where they meet the keelson, it's possible they are obscured by the ballast?

Interesting though, I can't think of another builder who routinely used keelsons (apart from Steve Hudson, I think,) though I have a feeling a few Hancock and Lane boats had them.  

What evidence do you have that the builder was Les Allen?  

Thanks for that. I have looked at the one at the very front. Definitely no hole. I will look at it more closely tomorrow. 

No evidence as such that it is Les Allen. It was always assumed to be based on last sellers description, which is come to think of it, is no evidence at all. 

[Robbo]

12 hours ago, jono2.0 said:

No worries,  I've just checked too and I don't have any Keelsons (after Googling what they were!). Not great pics but something I grabbed when I visited it being made.

So would you all suggest I 'create' a route for water to travel from bow to stern?  3x 6mm holes drilled as low as I dare on each angle that's welded to the baseplate? One port, one starboard and one in the middle?

 

I wouldn't bother, I would make sure the fit out includes the joists going lengthways so air flow can reach every area and access hatches to every one.

[Bee]

Water is difficult stuff. It gets in from all sorts of places and always ends up under the floor. You really do need to drill some big holes at the ends of those transverse frames. 1/2 inch is not too big, 1 inch even better. If boat builders really thought about it they would build boats with a very shallow v to the hull and make the water drain properly. As far as cleaning the bottom goes I think you need to clean it and dry it as much as possible and then put a few more coats of paint on it as well as taking the paint up the sides to roughly where the waterline will be. The black paint that is there already is probably bitumastic so you will need to use similar stuff. Lay the bricks on something that will keep them well off the bottom and make the floor with as many removable panels in it as you can. Its a bit like foundations in a house, you never see them but they are vital. You see lots of apparently beautiful boats with fitted carpet and gold plated taps but under the floor its rubbish design and corroding away badly.

[Neil2]

12 minutes ago, Bee said:

Water is difficult stuff. It gets in from all sorts of places and always ends up under the floor. You really do need to drill some big holes at the ends of those transverse frames. 1/2 inch is not too big, 1 inch even better. If boat builders really thought about it they would build boats with a very shallow v to the hull and make the water drain properly. As far as cleaning the bottom goes I think you need to clean it and dry it as much as possible and then put a few more coats of paint on it as well as taking the paint up the sides to roughly where the waterline will be. The black paint that is there already is probably bitumastic so you will need to use similar stuff. Lay the bricks on something that will keep them well off the bottom and make the floor with as many removable panels in it as you can. Its a bit like foundations in a house, you never see them but they are vital. You see lots of apparently beautiful boats with fitted carpet and gold plated taps but under the floor its rubbish design and corroding away badly.

A lot of Hancock and Lane boats were built this way, a very subtle V but just enough to channel water to the stern.  

I'd repeat the point that when boats had wet bilges ironically they were better designed in this respect.

Then again when baseplates were commonly 6mm the builder couldn't just rely on the thickness of plate compensating for poor design/maintenance.   

[Bee]

I didn't know that, very sensible.

[MtB]

On 02/04/2017 at 19:15, jono2.0 said:

No worries,  I've just checked too and I don't have any Keelsons (after Googling what they were!). Not great pics but something I grabbed when I visited it being made.

So would you all suggest I 'create' a route for water to travel from bow to stern?  3x 6mm holes drilled as low as I dare on each angle that's welded to the baseplate? One port, one starboard and one in the middle?

 

 

6mm holes will be nothing like big enough to allow water to freely flow through. Surface tension will stop it. 

In the world of plumbing both 15mm and 22mm pipes are capable of air-locking with surface tension. 28mm pipes generally don't do it so I'd suggest your limber holes should be at least an inch.

I also think the builder should be the one coming back to cut them. 

[BruceinSanity]

Apart from anything else, I thought it was good welding practice to leave limber holes where the cross struts meet the hull side, to relieve welding stresses?

[rusty69]

I have just looked at Graham Booths book fitting out Rome.  His boat definitely has limber holes in the cross beams attached to the Keelson. 

The only one I can access on our boat hasn't. Perhaps they forgot? 

Edited April 3, 2017 by rusty69

[Neil2]

12 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Have just looked at Boothes book. His boat definitely has limber holes in the cross beams attached to the Keelson. 

The only one I can access on our boat hasn't. Perhaps they forgot? 

A bit of a mystery this.  Whether it's an Allen boat or not, any builder going to the trouble of fitting a keelson surely isn't going to miss out limber holes.

As for the OP's boat, it's not fit for purpose in my book.  Creating a series of watertight compartments in the bilge of any boat is simply asking for trouble.  Especially when the bilge is as shallow as this one seems to be.  It suggests a cost cutting attitude as well.  I agree with MtB it should be the builder's problem.  

[rusty69]

2 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

bit of a mystery this.  Whether it's an Allen boat or not, any builder going to the trouble of fitting a keelson surely isn't going to miss out limber holes

Very true. It has left me with two thoughts I never considered previously

1. Are all the other sections the same? I have always assumed no limber holes were present. 

2. Is it an Allen boat? 

[Neil2]

9 minutes ago, rusty69 said:

Very true. It has left me with two thoughts I never considered previously

1. Are all the other sections the same? I have always assumed no limber holes were present. 

2. Is it an Allen boat? 

Have you had a look at the Allen Register?   http://www.allensregister.com/

I don't really know enough about them myself but have a look at the side decks/gunnels if they are folded in like most boats it's definitely not an Allen, the gunnels should be welded to the hull sides.  I understand the swim is a giveaway too but not quite so easy to check.  

It's also worth bearing in mind that ex employees built boats in similar style, John Horton is one, but again I can't imagine any would miss out an important design feature.

There could just be a good reason why that one cross member you can get at is solid - the fact that there's an inspection hatch there is interesting.  

If it was my boat I would have had the whole floor up by now..!  

[rusty69]

54 minutes ago, Neil2 said:

Have you had a look at the Allen Register?   http://www.allensregister.com/

I don't really know enough about them myself but have a look at the side decks/gunnels if they are folded in like most boats it's definitely not an Allen, the gunnels should be welded to the hull sides.  I understand the swim is a giveaway too but not quite so easy to check.  

It's also worth bearing in mind that ex employees built boats in similar style, John Horton is one, but again I can't imagine any would miss out an important design feature.

There could just be a good reason why that one cross member you can get at is solid - the fact that there's an inspection hatch there is interesting.  

If it was my boat I would have had the whole floor up by now..!  

It has a similar shape to those in your link. 

The inspection hatch at the front is actually a removable Floor I fitted after a pump leak. From this it was assumed that no limber holes were present throughout the rest of the boat. 

Perhaps some knowledgeable Allen owners will post and advise what theirs are like. I have started a new thread.

 

Apologies again op

Edited April 3, 2017 by rusty69