Gas free boat and electric heating (questions)

[AjaxKM]

Sue and I are at the design stage of our boat build and have decided we want a gas free NB so far so good.

 

The problem is that we now have to decide what to do for heating without sounding like to much of a newbie any suggestions

 

Many thanks in advance

 

Simon and Sue

[mayalld]

Sue and I are at the design stage of our boat build and have decided we want a gas free NB so far so good.

 

The problem is that we now have to decide what to do for heating without sounding like to much of a newbie any suggestions

 

Many thanks in advance

 

Simon and Sue

 

Not electric.

 

Rule number one is that nothing on a boat that doesn't absolutely need to be electric should be electric.

 

The logistics of arranging sufficient battery, alternator and inverter capacity are horrendous.

[bottle]

Hi

 

Multi-fuel stove (like this not recommendation just example)in one corner and a diesel fuel boiler (like this again not recommendation just example) running radiators and hot water.

 

There are many different makes/sizes.

 

Good luck

[AjaxKM]

Not electric.

 

Rule number one is that nothing on a boat that doesn't absolutely need to be electric should be electric.

 

The logistics of arranging sufficient battery, alternator and inverter capacity are horrendous.

 

I was kind of thinking about using the calorfier to heat a couple of rads but Im not to sure of the math behind it

 

Thank you also Keith for the links very helpfull who knew it would be so complicated we have made loads of design choices but ther always seem to be more

 

still it will be worth it in the end im sure

 

thank you for youre replies we can start eliminating things

Edited May 24, 2007 by AjaxKM

[bottle]

I was kind of thinking about using the calorfier to heat a couple of rads but Im not to sure of the math behind it

 

thank you for youe reply we can start eliminating things

 

How were you planning to heat the calorifier?

 

The engine can be used when the boat is moving but you cannot do that when moored.

[mayalld]

I was kind of thinking about using the calorfier to heat a couple of rads but Im not to sure of the math behind it

 

Thank you also Keith for the links very helpfull who knew it would be so complicated we have made loads of design choices but ther always seem to be more

 

still it will be worth it in the end im sure

 

thank you for youre replies we can start eliminating things

 

The calorifier is just (to all intents and purposes) a domestic hot water tank heated from the engine.

 

Whilst you can extend the engine circulators to also heat radiators, that will only work whilst your engine is running. Once the engine is stopped, you are dead in the water. Trying to pump the water from the calorifier around the system will not keep you warm.

[AjaxKM]

In all but the deepest winter we shall be CC so shouldnt be to much of a problem there we hope

 

If not then we might have to go to plan B and have some form of back burner or maybe a diesel fired boiler as I say Im kind of in the dark here

 

Still thats why Im here asking the questions

Edited May 24, 2007 by AjaxKM

[bottle]

Ajax

 

If you are going to be live aboard CCers, then therewill be times especially winter when you will not be moving for a number of days/weeks running the engine will only be enough to supply hot water and maybe a towel rail. Not an efficient way and will not be enough to keep you warm

 

Plan your heating as if you lived in a house.

 

It possible to buy a multi fuel stove with a back boiler. Then you have to decide whether it is to run on gravity or a pumped.

 

Gravity requires large bore piping

 

I shall also be a live aboard CCer and will be having a diesel fired boiler and a small multi fuel stove in the saloon.

 

There will also be 7KW generator.

 

Edit: typo and grammer

Edited May 24, 2007 by bottle

[Guest]

We recently fitted a blower type radiator to the engine cooling system and have been amazed at the amount of heat available for cabin heating. As a true northener, it breaks my heart to think how much heat I have paid for to warm the fishes over the years. However, as others have said, this "free" heat is only of any value when the engine is running. I like the log/multifuel stove and a desk fan personally when moored.

[NB Willawaw]

NB Willawaw is a gas-free boat.

She has a diesel heater, solid fuel stove and engine coolant/immersion heater heated calorifier.

Also have a separate towel rail. We have a 5kW diesel generator to charge the batteries, heat the water, run the cooker etc

when moored up.

[AjaxKM]

Ajax

 

If you are going to be live aboard CCers, then therewill be times especially winter when you will not be moving for a number of days/weeks running the engine will only be enough to supply hot water and maybe a towel rail. Not an efficient way and will not be enough to keep you warm

 

Plan your heating as if you lived in a house.

 

It possible to buy a multi fuel stove with a back boiler. Then you have to decide whether it is to run on gravity or a pumped.

 

Gravity requires large bore piping

 

I shall also be a live aboard CCer and will be having a diesel fired boiler and a small multi fuel stove in the saloon.

 

There will also be 7KW generator.

 

Edit: typo and grammer

 

Sorry for any misunderstanding I would probely be more accurate to state that in spring/summer/autumn we shall be out for 3-4 weeks at a time and when it bad we shall be moving when we have to if we cant find a decent mooring as we shall still have a house as well as our NB

 

Kind of semi CC if that makes any sense

 

Thank you very much for your advice though I appreciate it I know have to decide on wich type of stove and such like

 

Hope Im not making to much of a twat of myself never having done this before its a minefield and want to get it right

 

 

NB Willawaw is a gas-free boat.

She has a diesel heater, solid fuel stove and engine coolant/immersion heater heated calorifier.

Also have a separate towel rail. We have a 5kW diesel generator to charge the batteries, heat the water, run the cooker etc

when moored up.

 

 

Now thats what Im talking about do you find it heavy of juice?

 

Would hate to give Gordon to much money

Edited May 24, 2007 by AjaxKM

[NB Willawaw]

I run the genset about once a day for an hour or so - dinnertime usually.

I make use of mains shorelines if available at moorings, etc - the boat often gets left in marinas

due to work travel commitments.

I have a Wind Generator which keeps the 12V fridge going on windy days.

 

I think the diesel heater is reasonably expensive to run, but only tend to use it for an hour in the morning

and an hour in the evening.

 

I feel its cheaper than the electricity bill in the house, but its hard to compare.

Cost will double I guess when we have to use white diesel but then there should be less problems with the Eberspacher.

 

The solid fuel stove with the ecofan is a godsend.

 

Now thats what Im talking about do you find it heavy of juice?

 

Would hate to give Gordon to much money

[AjaxKM]

Sounds like solid fuel is the way to go or maybe a combination.

 

I really like the idea of a wind turbine and some solar panels to help out a touch with the electric just want to stay away from gas

 

We wanted to make our mind up before Crick so we could have a long chat with a few boat builders the cash is burning a hole in my pocket and I really want to get started

[NB Willawaw]

Solid fuel is good but not particularly cheap if you buy coal. In the colder months, its nice to have instant (diesel) rad heating to take the chill off.

Once the stoves lit, it can go off.

Solar panels and the wind gen make a good combination - wind gen is good in winter, solar panels better in summer.

 

Get the wind gen post tiltable and get the yard to weld one up - dont be tempted to do it as an afterthought.

The solar panels need to be on tilting mounts to get the best angle to the sun.

 

If you need any (free) advice/help, just PM me.

 

I've just designed an electric boat for an owner, but he's even got an electric motor instead of a diesel engine.

 

Sounds like solid fuel is the way to go or maybe a combination.

 

I really like the idea of a wind turbine and some solar panels to help out a touch with the electric just want to stay away from gas

 

We wanted to make our mind up before Crick so we could have a long chat with a few boat builders the cash is burning a hole in my pocket and I really want to get started

Edited May 24, 2007 by NB Willawaw

[ChrisPy]

I went through the same thought process when planning my boat.

 

I ended up with some gas - OK just a hob, but I realised that the only risk with gas is poor installation and maintenance, which is or should be manageable, and it really wasn't worth all the effort to avoid gas at all costs.

 

Just a thought to those in a similar quandary and who only want to fire up a cooker but don't want to risk pipes and joints inside the cabin area. Why not have the gas bottle in a locker immediately adjacent to the appliance? This means either having the galley at the front or the back, or a steel locker built into the side of the cabin.

[Adam]

You can get diesel hobs and ovens but they come at a price. If you look in this months canal boat it is featuring a narrowboat that is all electric with three 3kw victron inverter charges. But remember that you won't get any hot water if you dont have a boiler. Unless you ran the engine but this isn't good for it i have been told

[mayalld]

You can get diesel hobs and ovens but they come at a price. If you look in this months canal boat it is featuring a narrowboat that is all electric with three 3kw victron inverter charges. But remember that you won't get any hot water if you dont have a boiler. Unless you ran the engine but this isn't good for it i have been told

 

3x3kW victrons, plus a big enough battery bank to service them (If you work on the principle that you should never discharge a battery at more than 10% of its Ah capacity, you would need a 10,000 Ah bank, and where will THAT go) will start to make the cost of a diesel cooker look like peanuts.

 

Then add in the costs of sufficient generating capacity to keep such a bank charged.

 

TBH, if you need 9kW of power on standby, it is going to be cheaper to have a 20 mile hookup lead!!

[NB Alnwick]

The 'all electric boat' is more of a dream than reality and I have yet to hear of one that is in any way practical.

 

Try the 'cup of tea in the morning' test:

 

With gas - fill kettle from instant gas water heater an place on gas ring, by the time you have put the tea leaves in the pot and milk in the cups the kettle is boiling, make tea, turn off gas, drink tea in a nice warm boat;

 

With electric - start generator, fill kettle with cold water, wait ages for kettle to boil, endure noise and vibration from generator, continue to wait for kettle to boil while shivering etc. etc.

 

While we are stuck with the engine out of use (see details here) we really appreciate the advantages of gas because it is so easy to fetch a fortnight's supply in a wheelbarrow . . .

[Gary Peacock]

I have done quite a lot of boats with electric cooking non have really worked well accept for the ones with big standalone generators the inverter route is fine in theory but even those with free energy from cruising struggled when moored for a few days.

 

Diesel is the only real alternative to LPG and at the moment we are fitting a lot of diesel fired combined cooking and heating units like these HERE they are the kind of thing you either love or hate but they do work.

 

 

Electric with a good marine generator along with a well thought out electrical system and appliances works very well, but we usually find that most ditch crawler owners find the prices that the lumpy water brigade are prepared to pay too expensive.

 

If you want to consider the electrical route have a look at HERE for a somewhat biased view of what in theory is possible. (It will take a while to load and skip the product blurb on the first few pages to get to the good bits!)

[Alastair]

I have refurbished gas installations on 2 of my own boats. Honestly, it isn't something to worry about too much. Fit a bubble tester and the press of a button tells you that the system is gas-tight.

 

If you are worried about carbon Monoxide from gas appliances, then you need to think about all heating appliances as being potential sources of this, including a generator or engine.

[Rob@BSSOffice]

I have refurbished gas installations on 2 of my own boats. Honestly, it isn't something to worry about too much. Fit a bubble tester and the press of a button tells you that the system is gas-tight.

 

If you are worried about carbon Monoxide from gas appliances, then you need to think about all heating appliances as being potential sources of this, including a generator or engine.

 

And solid fuel stoves. We learnt yesterday that the man who was found dead on his boat at Blisworth last August, died from CO poisoning caused by the solid fuel stove. That is now four recorded solid fuel stove CO incidents within the past 12 months.

 

Electricity is not without problems too, electrical system fires topped our proabable cause chart for 2006.

 

I support you (AL) and Chris in the general principle of well installed and maintained systems/instalations and the use of routine checks to reinforce safe boating. Being able to check and maintain should also be factors in deciding what means of heating, cooking etc to use as well as capital and supply costs.

 

Regards

Rob

Go boating - Stay safe

 

PS I'm at Crick Saturday and Sunday, Phil is there on Monday, everyone is welcome to pop-by and say hello, ask questions etc.

[John Orentas]

And solid fuel stoves. We learnt yesterday that the man who was found dead on his boat at Blisworth last August, died from CO poisoning caused by the solid fuel stove. That is now four recorded solid fuel stove CO incidents within the past 12 months.

 

 

Might have been a bit more constructive Rob if you had told us what was wrong with his boat. All very well saying you believe in safe boats but it doesn't really get us very far.

 

Did you ever act on that alarming report about the solid fuel stove and the blanking plates that fall off.

[dor]

Why do you want a gas free boat?

 

If it because of the CO risk, then solid fuel stoves are just as dangerous (if not more so). then there is the risk of exhaust fumes from running a generator - which surely you will have to do frequently.

 

The risks from gas are greatly overstated, and there should be no problem with a properly installed system. Gas cooking is quick, cheap and simple - the alternatives - diesel cookers, solid fuel stoves or electric cookers just don't add up.

 

I think you need to think seriously about why you have an aversion to gas, and if it is because of the CO risk, you need to consider the safety of the alternatives.

[mayalld]

Why do you want a gas free boat?

 

I often wonder that about people.

 

It seems to be the latest fad, and will pass.

 

Certainly use of gas for water heating and refrigeration has all but gone, because there are good alternatives.

 

There just isn't a really good alternative to gas cooking.

 

Many of the dangers from gas systems related to leaky joints. With a single appliance, the risk is much reduced.

[Gary Peacock]

I often wonder that about people.

 

It seems to be the latest fad, and will pass.

 

Certainly use of gas for water heating and refrigeration has all but gone, because there are good alternatives.

 

There just isn't a really good alternative to gas cooking.

 

Many of the dangers from gas systems related to leaky joints. With a single appliance, the risk is much reduced.

 

The reason people want it is because the kit exists in other markets and ditch crawling is no longer perceived to be a poor mans hobby so a new market is ready to move into by the manufacturers. From there it is simply a marketing exercise to create demand.

Edited May 25, 2007 by Gary Peacock