B W The rights and wrongs?

[iteldoo4me]

No boat?,have you ever had a boat,perhaps if you had a boat you might have more clout here?,cant see the direction your aiming at,what do you do in your spare time,What made you come to our forum anyway,

[Matthewmorton]

Blimet, that's impresive. I think I get it now.

 

SO does that make a Polon the mint with a holon?

 

The holon is still out of order:

 

COURT CASE 9th December EVICTION HEARING

 

 

Oxford county court Today BW came out of nowhere and hit us with costs

 

We thought ..and we had been told, that we were there to sign a concession order only and that only one person had to turn up. On arrival we found that BW had amassed a large legal team and a Silk. We then knew something was up.

 

In fact they outflanked us in some hideous legal maneouvre.

Judge Corrie said "I know what is legally right and I know what is morally right but I'm going to have to award costs against John Keyes and 2 other defendants"

 

He did however reduced the costs from £3,880 +vat To £2500 (inclusive of VAT).

 

Effectively it's a punishing blow but not one that we will shirk from. We will raise the money from events.

We have DO a concession order to stay there for another 3 months (feb 28th 2006 ).

HOWEVER BW show NO signs of complying with the planning inspector's ruling SR13 of providing boatyard facilities at the appeal site or at an equally accessible place + DIY facilities.

We were also told, as an aside from Mr Eugene Baston (BW external relations), that Bellway are now back in the frame after a CLOSED bidding arrangement - and will be submitting a planning application duly. Despite attempts by us to get a developer with plans that would include a community centre, boatyard, affordable housing, imagination and community consultation.

 

Castle Mill Boatyard, in Jericho, Oxford, is under threat. As the last public boatyard on the Oxford Canal, it is an indispensable resource for the local narrowboat community, in particular residential boat owners. However British Waterways wants to develop the land for luxury housing, in association with Bellway Homes Ltd.

 

This is the campaign to retain the Boatyard, and so save Oxford's boating community from extinction.

If you'd like to get involved you could sign the online petition, info@portmeadow.org

[Eugene Baston]

An interesting posting........

 

The simple fact is, there is no legal defence in English law for occupying land that is not rightfully owned by those who occupy it.

 

The confusion over attendance at Court arose purely on the side of the illegal occupants in their mis-interpretation of a straightforward email that they had been copied to. The judge confirmed this to be their error.

 

The pursuit of costs is entirely appropriate considering the amount of wasted public monies incurred by BW in attending court to hear non-existent 'legal arguements' from the other side. On each occasion the illegal occupiers have failed to file any defence whatsoever, despite being required by the Court to do so within set timescales.

 

It is notable that the illegal occupiers are now representing themselves. Previously they have had legal representation, but this has now been withdrawn simply because of the futility of their case.

 

Alternative boat repair and upkeep facililities are available in the area, although it would appear that these illegal occupiers (not all of whom are boat owners) choose not to use them, and claim instead that there are no facilities available. This is akin to having one local convenience store in a neighbourhood and saying there's nowhere to buy groceries, simply because you don't like the look of the shop.

 

BW submitted an application for only a part of its costs to be paid, and noted the time of year when choosing to enforce the Possession Order in the New Year and not immediately before Christmas.

 

Best wishes, Eugene

[Richard Bustens]

I sympthise with the boat owners. but if I had been taken to court and lost i would have been presented with all the costs, i think BW were very fair in what they asked for, and then it was reduced, by the judge.

 

But they say they are still continuing the battle, will they not incure more costs that they apear not to be able to pay?

[gaggle]

the hangmans noose concentrates the mind.

[Pirate]

I think it`s the same in most courts you know,

 

There was a chap in last week and the judge said to him," weren`t you here before me, 4 years ago for stealing an overcoat,

 

And the man replied, "well how long do you think an overcoat lasts"?

[Ridgeways]

I'm going to add a more sour note. Leaving aside comparisons with other navigation authorities, there is a fundamental problem with BW management policy that is having a very destructive effect on the waterways.

 

I would agree with those who applaud the ground staff, but even these at times have to undertake distasteful actions because of directives from on high.

 

The primary purpose of BW in my opinion is to maintain and improve the system for the benefit of the nation. In doing so, they are enjoined by Act of Parliament to conduct themselves in as business-like a manner as possible, with a responsibility to maximise receipts on all property dealings that DO NOT involve the "track" and those facilities essential to its operation.

 

Partly due to Governmental pressure, BW top management is comprised of those who get the emphasis wrong. Maximising receipts has become the primary goal, with the result that essential facilities are being lost at an alarming rate, and the character of the canalside is being wantonly destroyed.

 

A few years ago, BW published a pretty good document for Council use, entitled Waterways and Development Plans. Amongst other policies, it urges Councils to protect boatyards, slipways and wharves, and offers good advice on the scale and character of any new waterside development. Tragically, this document is ignored when BW see an opportunity to make large chunks of money by development that is inappropriate according to their own guidelines. Councils that have taken BW's advice on board, find themselves having to fund legal fights brought by BW and their development partners, in their effort to push through destructive development purely for profit, careless of the loss of essential facilities.

 

The Castlemill saga in Oxford is a prime example of this, BW arguing that a boatyard was not an essential facility! In my neck of the woods the Council is having to face a public inquiry shortly, because BW want to demolish the last canalside covered wharf, on the grounds that commercial use is no longer appropriate owing to the nearby vast residential development already permitted.

 

Few people realise just how much of the canal's infrastructure is being lost, nor how quickly.

[the ghost of the lea]

I have had bad experiences with BW, im only 16 but im lucky enough to own my own boat its a callum craft(i am posting on my dads account though btw) and me and my dad got it on the the thames for free and after a winters work it was ready. Any way last year on my way to the thames, there is a part of the lower river lea just south of tottenham that is always littered with rubbish and weed. That year it was extremely bad and the weed was so thick my outboard would choke up and conk out every few metres (this its self cant be good for an outboard) after lifting my outboard up for the hundredth time maybe (to clear the weed) I noticed half cavitional plate was missing this was clearly due to the excessive amount of rubbish left in the river that had not been cleared for sometime and some =thing must have hit it. I like my boat and I like evrything looking in good condition, I don't have a lot of money so I cannot repair something like this so I wrote to BW explaining the poor state of the river and thought they should pay for the repairs as it is there duty to keep the navigation clear. The response i got was pretty disgusting saying they do there best and gave me some rubbishy figures. I know my dad pays alot for fees etc and i am quite annoyed BW can't be bothered to even attempt to really help me. On the river lee I can't see were the money goes as broken things are often left for months and no work ever takes place. To be honest im so annoyed about it id like to stick 2 fingers up to any BW person I see as in my opinion most of them are lazy and can't be bothered.

[Lock 45]

This post seems to have 'died' yet the problems for British Waterways remain. I would like to 'liven' it up somewhat.

I think that the post from Ridgeways (February 28, 2006) began to hit the nail on the head in his first four paragraphs.

When the Rochdale Canal was about to be taken over by The Waterways Trust and then maintained by British Waterways on its behalf, staff from BW were at some pains to make contact with as many representatives of the waterside communities as possible to get them 'on side' with the view that their involvement would help BW in its problems with things such as vandalism etc.

This approach was enthusiastically taken up in my area.

(Incidentally, while this forum is clearly primarily for boat owners and canal users, it should not forget that the canals are part of the tourism industry of the British Isles and the canalside communities must be an important consideration in whatever BW decides to do.)

Since that time there has been a change in BW's attitude and not for the better! Profit is now its major concern and the effect is hugely damaging to what its purpose in life should be i.e. maintenance and repair of the canal system.

The folly of attempting to become a 'business' capable of providing and existing on independent financial income from government grants is pretty clear and the government, if they are at the back of this idea, would want that wouldn't they? But how can a business be financially independent with a 200-year old infrastructure, some of it not having received an iota of maintenance for over 50 years, manage without considerable input from government finances? It seems ludicrous to me as the loss of government grants would require alternative sources to provide millions of pounds a year.

There is as part of this change in attitude a change in policy whereby bankside staff are being put into roaming gangs which re-act to any problems over a wide area, no longer attached to a particular canal or part of a canal. This destroys any real connection between themselves and the local residents. It also makes it virtually impossible for them to do their job properly as they will not know a piece of a canal in sufficient detail to be able to sort a problem out before it becomes an expensive disaster.

This must be the case all over the system, but the effect is particularly bad on the Rochdale.

I feel the whole approach of BW now needs a serious reappraisal and, if I'm right and you agree with me, you should all be making the point to them.

The problems created by DEFRA may not be helping but if canals have to close it will not be entirely DEFRAs fault.

[tim.ledbury]

New Subject.

 

I really think that BW needs to sort itself out before people start to die or are seriously injured on our canals. Where I am moored there is a boater that is a liability to himself and everyone around him (because he drinks) and although BW have been told they have done nothing. (right or wrong, but they must have some sort of law that they can use?)

 

Now other Boaters have got involved and made it more a case of when he kills himself and who he takes with him...

 

Where is the intelligence in moving an alcoholics boat from a towpath mooring and putting it illegally on a lock mooring where the alcoholic has no other way to get to or from his boat other than to walk across the lock gates?

 

Surly as boaters there must be some sort of serious lack of common sense on the party's involved in making a person that struggles to walk when sober ( which is rare) walk drunk over lock gates. Even more so with the weather as it is now.

 

Or is it me?? I am sitting here writing this thinking well maybe there is something that I am missing, but I am confused to think what I could be missing.

 

Well I think that I will go now and I suppose that I will post again either when the situation is sorted by BW or by the Coroners office.

[bottle]

Hi

 

Hard as this might seem none of the above problems are anything to do with BW, except the mooring on on the lock mooring and unless that is causeing an obstruction to the canal, whats the problem.

 

The crossing of a lock gate when intoxicated is not the ideal, perhaps some of the concerned boaters could help him move it. (the boat)

 

This gentleman has the right to do as he likes as long as he does not or is unlikely to cause harm to any one else.

 

If the gentleman wants help then mayby you could be the one that gives it, the only other help that may be available is from social services.

[tim.ledbury]

Hi

 

Hard as this might seem none of the above problems are anything to do with BW, except the mooring on on the lock mooring and unless that is causeing an obstruction to the canal, whats the problem.

 

The crossing of a lock gate when intoxicated is not the ideal, perhaps some of the concerned boaters could help him move it. (the boat)

 

This gentleman has the right to do as he likes as long as he does not or is unlikely to cause harm to any one else.

 

If the gentleman wants help then mayby you could be the one that gives it, the only other help that may be available is from social services.

 

 

I know what you mean. He is not really causing an obstruction as such except if we have a bit of a rush for the lock which happens on the odd occasion, unless it is an issue for the land and water gravel barges (their fight).

 

He has a mooring on the tow path side (as safe as we can get him). Concerned boaters moved him to where he is now......?????

 

He is causing more of a nuisance than anything else, rubbish on the tow path etc but the potential for him to harm others has increased dramatically since the other boaters moved him.

 

Several of us were helping him, I have helped to fix his generator, his cooker, replaced gas bottles, collected coal for him and on the list goes (not for praise or for money) just because thats is me. One off the other boaters has been in and helped to clean his boat for him. So its not as if he is on his own. We even got him into hospital to sort help him sort himself out, he discharged himself. I know that we are restricted with what we can do but surly as a boating community there must be something we else we can do. Or maybe BW have something else.

 

I have tried to contact BW to no avail. I have spoken to our mooring warden and he is in the same position.(unable to get any contact from BW). Far short of calling the emergency phone number which is not going to achieve anything just waste their time and my phone bill.

 

Social services won't do anything because he has not asked for help!!!!! the police can't do anything as it is not a matter for them.

 

Rock and a hard place really, any advice would be helpful....

[tomsk]

I know what you mean. He is not really causing an obstruction as such except if we have a bit of a rush for the lock which happens on the odd occasion, unless it is an issue for the land and water gravel barges (their fight).

 

He has a mooring on the tow path side (as safe as we can get him). Concerned boaters moved him to where he is now......?????

 

He is causing more of a nuisance than anything else, rubbish on the tow path etc but the potential for him to harm others has increased dramatically since the other boaters moved him.

 

Several of us were helping him, I have helped to fix his generator, his cooker, replaced gas bottles, collected coal for him and on the list goes (not for praise or for money) just because thats is me. One off the other boaters has been in and helped to clean his boat for him. So its not as if he is on his own. We even got him into hospital to sort help him sort himself out, he discharged himself. I know that we are restricted with what we can do but surly as a boating community there must be something we else we can do. Or maybe BW have something else.

 

I have tried to contact BW to no avail. I have spoken to our mooring warden and he is in the same position.(unable to get any contact from BW). Far short of calling the emergency phone number which is not going to achieve anything just waste their time and my phone bill.

 

Social services won't do anything because he has not asked for help!!!!! the police can't do anything as it is not a matter for them.

 

Rock and a hard place really, any advice would be helpful....

 

Leave the poor old soak be?

[bottle]

Tim

 

I understand your thoughts and obviously you and others care but as Tomsk says, leave him be.

 

I may have become a little harden but some people cannot be helped, before my retirement I was a Paramedic and so met many people that were in this condition (we often got calls to them and got to know them quite well), we always tried to help, got the authoritys involved etc, .

 

They have to want help otherwise you may just as well hit your head against a brick wall.

 

By all means look out for him and help him if he wants it, I realise a human being is always worth 'saving' but it is not always possible.

[tim.ledbury]

Leave the poor old soak be?

 

And then let him get mugged, (already happened)

 

And then let him get robbed, (already happened)

 

So what next let him get murdered...... I suppose then at least the police would have to do something.

 

The point is other boaters that think they are helping are actually making his life worse, and what are the boaters that can see the problem arising supposed to do? get our deck chairs out and watch.

 

You might, I would not........ The fact that we are all boaters should count for something.

[FORTUNATA]

Time to add my view, I think, so here goes:

Basically, I'm not really a happy BW customer for various reasons. For starters, nearly every boater I've spoken to personally (and that includes former boatyard owners in my area) complain B.W. is overpricing people out of the hobby. The situation over here is grim. Note, when I state B.W. is overpricing itself I'm not referring to those of you who live on a boat. The problem lies with people such as myself and my neighbour who simply keep a boat for recreational purposes and have other expenses too.

To personalise this, I have a 25 foot, fibreglass boat and will have over 400 pounds to pay in license this coming year. Apart from that, my mooring fees will come to roughly 320 pounds for which I get a pretty unstable mooring that may well finish me off - I've fallen through a rotten mooring and into the dreaded cut twice this year.

As I said before, the landowner doesn't want to maintain the mooring platform as she says BW take 3 times as much than she does for the boat being located there so, if I push things too far, my landlady will more than likely prefer me to move the boat and will close the mooring down. Really she doesn't want to keep the moorings going at this time.

It gets worse: Why, may I ask, are boatowners playing second fiddle to car-owners? Any car-owner has a choice of numerous garages where he(or she) can take a vehicle for repairs, which is the obvious choice if you're working long hours. Yet, in my location, I haven't found a single boatyard that employs craftsmen, engineers, boat electricians e.t.c. Only the other day, a guy was telling me he finally whipped his inboard engine out of his boat and replaced the engine with an outboard as he could never get a mechanic to carry out essential repairs.

Therefore, here is how things stand: It seems as if boating is now an option for those of us who have some engineering/electrical and practical background and, if not, there isn't really a lot on offer from the current system. Somehow, you have to find time to everything yourself despite holding down a full time job.

As I understand, it's far far more economical to have a boat in Holland than it is here but if we are paying far more than in Europe, this current service ought to be a whole lot better than it is. The hobby needs to be more affordable with less red-tape and more facilties for boatowners who may be pushed for time on occasions.

[scoobydog]

Well. Yes BW is overdoing the charging thing. You may be aware that they have powers under the Transport Act 1968 which, basically, allow the board to charge for any service or facility they may provide, and to deliver the level of service or facility that the board sees fit. Yes, they can charge you for anything, and do nothing in return, and it is Legal!

 

By the way, that was how the "end of garden moorings" got started!

 

One charge that has been thought about was a "landing stage" licence. This was thought to be a way of ensuring all landing stages were maintained to a standard. All landing stages or piers would have to have a licence. This seems to have gone "on the back burner" for now!

[Matt and Miriam]

Have had more than one occasion to be less than impressed with BW in the past but on two occasions over the last couple of weeks I've been thoroughly impressed by the West Midlands office.

 

My wife is currently pregnant with twins. We live aboard and have been, and were planning on, cruising but decided we wanted a base for a couple of months before and after the births. They've sorted us out with a temporary mooring straight away. Guess moorings work like council flats, so if any of you are struggling to find one you know what you need to do!

 

Then last week a fallen tree blocking the canal was cleared within a couple of hours of notifying them, cut into nice managable sections for me to cut up Still stuck though because of a stoppage at Colwich locks. Saw a boat go by yesterday, then a few hours later the owner pullling it back by rope! Was low on water so had to pull it around 1 1/2 miles back to the next winding hole