Solid Oak Floor

[Lesd]

Does anyone know how much a solid wood floor (oak ?) would cost as an addition on a widebeam build ?

I'm estimating the materials would cost approx £1350 retail (50m2 at £27 per meter) but how much is reasonable for the builder to fit ?

Any views much appreciated !

Rgds

Les

[Big Steve]

On a boat I think you would need an "engineered" solid oak floor. IE Oak about 10mm thick on a plywood backing. This is very stable and won't twist or warp. Solid oak will definitely be a problem eventually. Trouble is engineered flooring is around £45 m², but it is ready finished. Sorry, no idea on fitting costs.

[carlt]

On a boat I think you would need an "engineered" solid oak floor. IE Oak about 10mm thick on a plywood backing. This is very stable and won't twist or warp. Solid oak will definitely be a problem eventually. Trouble is engineered flooring is around £45 m², but it is ready finished. Sorry, no idea on fitting costs.

Why should solid wood behave any differently on a modern boat than in a house? At least if there is any movement it can be lifted and machined out. These horrible veneer things are still prone to movement but, rather than having an inch of material to play with, the few mm of real wood just delaminates from the ply/mdf stuff underneath. Then you chuck it away.

 

A wooden floor should have some movement, it's what gives it character. But this should be minimal in a dry boat.

 

I'm sure solid oak floorboards will move less in a new widebeam than the larch ones in my draughty 68 year old work boat, though, and my boards are fine.

 

Edited to say: I buy all my timber by the cube unfinished so I can't give you a price but if you buy reclaimed it is less likely to move and works out about £35-£40 a cube + vat (12' x 1' x1" = 1 cubic foot).

Edited April 20, 2007 by carlt

[Chris J W]

There's a very good supplier of recliamed oak (et-al) here http://www.traditionaltimber.co.uk/

[andywatson]

Does anyone know how much a solid wood floor (oak ?) would cost as an addition on a widebeam build ?

I'm estimating the materials would cost approx £1350 retail (50m2 at £27 per meter) but how much is reasonable for the builder to fit ?

Any views much appreciated !

Rgds

Les

 

I can recommend a sawmill near Duffield, Derby (Hingley's 01773 550055) who supply sawn (not planed) Oak at very good prices.

[stuart]

In your area measurements have you taken account of all the places where you may not need expensive flooring?

 

Under cupboards, bathroom, under the bed?

[Freetochat]

No matter what is used there will be movement. The flooring should settle down once it has reached environment moisture content. Major movement in houses is caused by the drying and expanding movement due to heating cycles. There are ways to minimise. Get proper flooring timber that has been machined accurately. Allow for movement. Use silicon between the oak and ply to minimise squeeky boards. Sometimes it is worth treating the timber before laying, as one side treated/one side bare can cause one directional movement (ie cupping etc). IMO avoid laminate.

[Boaty Jo]

I had oak floorboards cut to my specification. A mix of 4,5 and six inch widths to fit right through cabin on 57 footer

Also hard-wood timber for cratch (which I made myself) iroko or something similar from memory.

Can't remember the exact cost but the whole lot was definately under £1K.

This was from Border Hardwoods in Wem, Shropshire. 01939 235550.

[carlt]

No matter what is used there will be movement. The flooring should settle down once it has reached environment moisture content. Major movement in houses is caused by the drying and expanding movement due to heating cycles. There are ways to minimise. Get proper flooring timber that has been machined accurately. Allow for movement. Use silicon between the oak and ply to minimise squeeky boards. Sometimes it is worth treating the timber before laying, as one side treated/one side bare can cause one directional movement (ie cupping etc). IMO avoid laminate.

 

Is proper flooring timber from special flooring trees? The main problem with "flooring" timber is that it is plain sawn to get the maximum amount of wide boards with the minimum amount of work. Cabinet making timber is far more expensive because it is 'quarter sawn' minimising the chance of cupping (and revealing oaks medullary rays as a pleasant, if coincidental, feature).

 

I've got a big pile of 1" oak planks that were quarter sawn over 50 years ago. They have lived in a garage, in the hold of a boat, in a living room (didn't have a girlfriend or workshop at the time) and outdoors. They are all pretty much as flat as the day they were sawn. I also have a big pile of oak planks that were plain sawn about 4 years ago. You can crawl through the gaps between some of them, they've moved so much (not a bad thing in boat building).

 

I wouldn't use silicon (wax, oil or rubber?) if you're planning on waxing the surface. The beeswax will prevent squeaking anyway.

[blackrose]

Why should solid wood behave any differently on a modern boat than in a house? At least if there is any movement it can be lifted and machined out. These horrible veneer things are still prone to movement but, rather than having an inch of material to play with, the few mm of real wood just delaminates from the ply/mdf stuff underneath. Then you chuck it away.

 

A wooden floor should have some movement, it's what gives it character. But this should be minimal in a dry boat.

 

I'm sure solid oak floorboards will move less in a new widebeam than the larch ones in my draughty 68 year old work boat, though, and my boards are fine.

 

Edited to say: I buy all my timber by the cube unfinished so I can't give you a price but if you buy reclaimed it is less likely to move and works out about £35-£40 a cube + vat (12' x 1' x1" = 1 cubic foot).

 

I think Big Steve was talking about "Engineered wood" which usually comes as a triple layer wood ply (each layer about 4mm thick & made from the same wood as the top layer), not veneered MDF which is a definate no-no on boats.

 

The advantage of engineered wood is that is has better dimensional stability than solid wood, which according to several DIY websites I visited, should not be laid below ground level (I think they were talking primarily about basements), but most floors on boats are below water level and subject to huge temperature & humidity fluctuations.

 

I've seen several boats with solid wood floors that looked fine, but in all of these had the boards had been secret nailed down. There's probably nothing wrong with that unless you have a plumbing leak and need to get the boards up to dry the floor out. I may be wrong but a floating floor would be preferable in this eventuality and I think engineered wood would be more suited to this type of installation in a boat. I'd like to know if anyone has installed a solid wood floating floor in a boat and how they have got on and how the floor has performed.

 

In my particular case, my marine-ply sub-floor gets quite cold in winter so I would have needed some insulation underneath a wood floor. The green fibreboard sheets are no good as they'd act like a sponge in the event of any water getting through, and I couldn't find any other insulation material that was "hard" enough to allow a floating floor to be laid.

[carlt]

I think Big Steve was talking about "Engineered wood" which usually comes as a triple layer wood ply (each layer about 4mm thick & made from the same wood as the top layer), not veneered MDF which is a definate no-no on boats.

 

The advantage of engineered wood is that is has better dimensional stability than solid wood, which according to several DIY websites I visited, should not be laid below ground level (I think they were talking primarily about basements), but most floors on boats are below water level and subject to huge temperature & humidity fluctuations.

 

I've seen several boats with solid wood floors that looked fine, but in all of these had the boards had been secret nailed down. There's probably nothing wrong with that unless you have a plumbing leak and need to get the boards up to dry the floor out. I may be wrong but a floating floor would be preferable in this eventuality and I think engineered wood would be more suited to this type of installation in a boat. I'd like to know if anyone has installed a solid wood floating floor in a boat and how they have got on and how the floor has performed.

 

In my particular case, my marine-ply sub-floor gets quite cold in winter so I would have needed some insulation underneath a wood floor. The green fibreboard sheets are no good as they'd act like a sponge in the event of any water getting through, and I couldn't find any other insulation material that was "hard" enough to allow a floating floor to be laid.

 

Laminated wood has better dimensional stability until it delaminates. The only 'unengineered' wood is still standing with leaves growing on it.

 

Having a wooden boat means I have a floating floor (quite literally in Lucy's case at the moment) I never fix anything to the bottoms. My floor is made up of T&G larch (which moves more than oak) and is nailed to 3x2 battens to form 'pallets' which can be moved if necessary. There has been no movement over the past 3 years other than a bit of shrinkage immediately in front of the burner.

 

The reason this is the case is because wood is a wonderful, flexible consruction material that really doesn't need 'laminating' or treaing to help it behave. Careful selection, storage, machining and finishing is all you need to have a material that will last hundreds of years longer than the chemical bonds in laminates.

 

And why would a wooden floor need insulation. My boat has wooden bottoms, sides and a wooden line-out under the tarps. There is no insulation other than the wonderful insulating properties of the wood itself.

Edited April 20, 2007 by carlt

[blackrose]

Laminated wood has better dimensional stability until it delaminates.

Why should it delaminate? There's plenty of plywood on boats that has never delaminated if it's been kept dry. Anyway, if we're looking at it like this then straight wooden boards are only straight until they warp!

 

The only 'unengineered' wood is still standing with leaves growing on it.

Very good. Enginereed wood is also term used to describe this particular product - if you want to talk semantics then go right ahead, I can't be bothered.

 

Having a wooden boat means I have a floating floor (quite literally in Lucy's case at the moment) I never fix anything to the bottoms. My floor is made up of T&G larch (which moves more than oak) and is nailed to 3x2 battens to form 'pallets' which can be moved if necessary. There has been no movement over the past 3 years other than a bit of shrinkage immediately in front of the burner.

That's an interesting installation idea that I hadn't heard before.

 

And why would a wooden floor need insulation.

Because it's cold perhaps? You'll have to take my word for it - I've been living on it for two years.

[KenK]

I have a soild oak floating floor on my narrowboat. It's laid directly on WPB plywood sheets without insulation. The boards are approx. 4 ins wide.

 

Looks nice, doesn't creak but I'd agree with Blackrose it is cold underfoot. The other problem is it marks easily, so make sure any doors have a reasonable clearence.

 

Ken

[carlt]

Why should it delaminate? There's plenty of plywood on boats that has never delaminated if it's been kept dry. Anyway, if we're looking at it like this then straight wooden boards are only straight until they warp!

Very good. Enginereed wood is also term used to describe this particular product - if you want to talk semantics then go right ahead, I can't be bothered.

That's an interesting installation idea that I hadn't heard before.

Because it's cold perhaps? You'll have to take my word for it - I've been living on it for two years.

 

I really can't be bothered arguing with you. I am a qualified joiner who has been playing with wood all my life. I've lifted and laid more floors in boats and houses than I care to remember.

 

In my humble opinion solid wood outlasts and outperforms laminate materials. I have only ever lifted one solid wood floor and that was because the owner didn't like it. I took that timber and refloored another boat with it. Every laminate floor I've lifted has gone in the skip.

 

The laminate floors you see advertised are not marine ply so you can't compare them as such. Compare the prices of real wood laminates for general use and the ones recommended for heavy use or wet/dry environments and you'll soon see the attraction of solid wood. But I would still recommend solid wood over the heavy duty laminates.

 

To be honest I don't see a problem with using laminates in a modern boat, solid wood is just better. Neither will move appreciably but the solid wood will take decades longer to wear away.

[Freetochat]

Is proper flooring timber from special flooring trees?

 

Is it always this difficult having grown up conversations?

[carlt]

Is it always this difficult having grown up conversations?

If you regard a bit of humour as not grown up then yes, it is.

I did continue in a 'more adult' tone but obviously the damage was already done.

 

The main problem with "flooring" timber is that it is plain sawn to get the maximum amount of wide boards with the minimum amount of work. Cabinet making timber is far more expensive because it is 'quarter sawn' minimising the chance of cupping (and revealing oaks medullary rays as a pleasant, if coincidental, feature).

 

I've got a big pile of 1" oak planks that were quarter sawn over 50 years ago. They have lived in a garage, in the hold of a boat, in a living room (didn't have a girlfriend or workshop at the time) and outdoors. They are all pretty much as flat as the day they were sawn. I also have a big pile of oak planks that were plain sawn about 4 years ago. You can crawl through the gaps between some of them, they've moved so much (not a bad thing in boat building).

 

I wouldn't use silicon (wax, oil or rubber?) if you're planning on waxing the surface. The beeswax will prevent squeaking anyway.

There you go. Repeated without the offensive humour.

[gary4lw]

Is it always this difficult having grown up conversations?

Yes!!!! Whilst i have to admit there is stacks of really useful information on here and some very nice people it can be a bit like a playground sometimes. Gary

[carlt]

Yes!!!! Whilst i have to admit there is stacks of really useful information on here and some very nice people it can be a bit like a playground sometimes. Gary

Sorry, but I really don't think anything I've said is childish. I've offered my qualified opinion, and added some humour.

[Chris J W]

Like Carl's idea of mounting them on battens. What about something like 'Thermofleece' in the gap between floorboard and hull-lining?

[carlt]

Like Carl's idea of mounting them on battens. What about something like 'Thermofleece' in the gap between floorboard and hull-lining?

 

maybe attached to the underside of the wood with a gap between hull and insulation. If it touches the hull you'd get wicking of any water on the metal.

[Chris J W]

maybe attached to the underside of the wood with a gap between hull and insulation. If it touches the hull you'd get wicking of any water on the metal.

Ta!

[blackrose]

I really can't be bothered arguing with you. I am a qualified joiner who has been playing with wood all my life. I've lifted and laid more floors in boats and houses than I care to remember.

I wasn't arguing. You're arguing with yourself.

[carlt]

I wasn't arguing. You're arguing with yourself.

Of course.

[Lesd]

Just back from work and so many replies, I'll go through the detail and follow up with the suppliers reccommended. If I can afford solid wood I'd love to go that way, otherwise Karndean.

Thanks again

Les

[Big Steve]

I'm surprised Carlt doesn't seem to understand the difference between an engineered floor and a laminated floor. Just go and get a couple of samples from your SPECIALIST flooring supplier. .

 

Unless you pay an arm and 3 legs for 1/4 sawn well seasoned oak it will cup in a boat. I don't care what anyone says, no boat has totally dry bilges, so there is bound to be a difference in humidity between the top and bottom of the boards.

 

In a household situation, engineered flooring is the only grade guaranteed not to cup by commercial suppliers if used with underfloor heating where you have the opposite effect to a boat, ie bone dry underneath and cooler and humid on top.

 

I think the only way you stand a chance with a solid oak floor is to seal the underside, lay it on hardwood battons,at 16" centres, screwed and plugged twice each board width, with SS or marine brass screws, using no more than 5" wide T&G boards. I'd be tempted to place a layer of DP membrane over the ballast, and put Kingspan or Celotex between the battons (see seconds and co on the internet.)

 

As a guide , I've been paying £20m² for reclaimed oak flooring. (reclaimed as in sawn from big old beams, not actually secondhand boards). I've been using it for doors and wainscotting, no problems yet.

 

As a matter of interest I've left a piece of Clik Lok laminated flooring in the garden for the last 2 years, to my amazement it's still in good condition, and it wasn't even bathroom rated.

Edited April 20, 2007 by Big Steve