Ownership Documents

[robsusiecuttlefish]

Hiya Guys,

 

Susie and I were wondering ...?

 

Is there similar documentation for residential boats for proof of ownership etc, as there is for dwellings in the form of deeds, registered in a central Registry depository? Just wondered whether this was an issue considered by other couples living permanently afloat?

[John Orentas]

Rob.

 

It is not just residential boats, it often occurs to me that if I was called upon to prove ownership of my boat, I would have some difficulty in doing so at short notice.

 

A receipt from the builder or the previous owner would do the job, but like many others I built my boat myself and for reasons best not gone into here most of the components and materials where cash transactions.

 

I am sure there is some legal type person on the site who could tell us how to go about getting a suitable document.

[Amicus]

Seems to be a Catch 22 situation. You can register with the MCA but they need a "bill of ownership"

http://tinyurl.com/5oepv

Cant think of anybody else who would be interested, RYA? or if the vessel was puchased with a mortgage there might be a bit of paper.

MCA = Maritime and Coastguard Agency

[PhilipL]

Just been looking at this myself and AFIK the only way to prove ownership of a boat is register it under section 1 of the Register of Ships. Unfortunately this costs money

130ukp to register

105ukp to register a mortgage

plus the cost of a survey for tonnage and measurement

 

Having got it, the name and port of registry will need to fixed to the boat. If your existing boat name is taken then you would need to rename your boat.

 

Having done all this it only lasts 5 years and costs 50ukp to renew.

 

You can register under section 3, otherwise know as the Small Ships Register, which only costs 12ukp but this is no proof of ownership. It's only use is some sort of proof of ownersip when you go abroad.

 

Phil

[Richard Bustens]

Just keep all the build receipts. that should in most circumstances.

[Paul Evans]

A boat is a "chattel" and has the same legal standing as the bits of furniture in your house (and wives at one time).

 

If you buy a boat new, you will have a copy of the building contract and a receipt from the builder for your money. Together they will provide sufficient proof of ownership so keep them safe. You could ask the builder for a bill of sale as well. Most would be happy to provide one.

 

If you buy a boat secondhand, you need to be aware that the seller may not have legal title to the boat. Generally, it is unlikely that you will be offered stolen property - very few boats are stolen on the canals and those that are are usually recovered in a relatively short time. You could ask the seller to provide proof of ownership and, if you decide to buy, a bill of sale.

 

A "bill of sale" is simply a document that transfers ownership of an asset from one person to another. You can create a Bill of Sale online.

 

You may be able to register your boat on the UK Shipping Register The MCA website does not provide further information about registering pleasure vessels but suggests you contact the registry (Tel +44 (0)29 20448800 - for general enquiries). You will need a bill of sale to register. Registration would provide proof of ownership and may be required by the lender if you use a marine mortgage to buy the boat.

 

You can register your boat on the Small Ships Register but it provides proof of nationality only and not proof of ownership. Currently it costs £12 to register for 5 years

[John Orentas]

I don't understand all this small ships register stuff, if you have a bill of sale that is proof of ownership.

[Paul Evans]

John,

 

You're absolutely right. If you have a bill of sale from the person who sold you the boat you don't need any more to prove your ownership. It's just that some peole seem to want a little more than that.

 

The Small Ships Register doesn't help because it only provides proof of nationality. It might be useful if you were going to take your boat over to the European waterways but otherwise it doesn't add to a bill of sale.

 

If you had a Part 1 registration on the UK Shipping Register that would provide proof of ownership but as Phil pointed out it costs a load of money, you have to display extra information on the boat and you might have to change the name. I bet there's load more - like surveys - to do before you can register. Again, I go with you, a bill of sale should be quite enough.

[howardang]

John,

 

You're absolutely right. If you have a bill of sale from the person who sold you the boat you don't need any more to prove your ownership. It's just that some peole seem to want a little more than that.

 

The Small Ships Register doesn't help because it only provides proof of nationality. It might be useful if you were going to take your boat over to the European waterways but otherwise it doesn't add to a bill of sale.

 

If you had a Part 1 registration on the UK Shipping Register that would provide proof of ownership but as Phil pointed out it costs a load of money, you have to display extra information on the boat and you might have to change the name. I bet there's load more - like surveys - to do before you can register. Again, I go with you, a bill of sale should be quite enough.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

The problem with a bill of sale is that it's only proof if the person who gave you it actually owned the boat. It might be that it's a stolen boat in which case the bill of sale has no legal standing and you may loose the boat without recompense.

 

Regristration under part one of the merchant shipping act is the safest way - especially if you want to make sure that there are no mortgages registered against the boat but it isn't foolproof. Neither is the Small Ships Register which is even less secure. As has been said earlier, a paper trail showing purchase history fro new would certainly help in cases of dispute.

 

Regards

 

Howard Anguish

[maffi mushkila]

Surely there is nothing to stop you from producing your own 'Proof of ownership' citing dimensions, build details etc. Get it signed by the builder or previous owner, yourselves and notarised by a duly authorised 'Notary Public'.

 

It can be as plain or as flashy as you choose.

 

Computers are not only for email.

Edited February 20, 2005 by maffi mushkila

[robsusiecuttlefish]

Many thanks for all your postings - that's really interesting and helps a lot

 

Rob and Susie

[howardang]

Surely there is nothing to stop you from producing your own 'Proof of ownership' citing dimensions, build details etc. Get it signed by the builder or previous owner, yourselves and notarised by a duly authorised 'Notary Public'.

 

It can be as plain or as flashy as you choose.

 

Computers are not only for email.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

 

Dead right Maffi - as long as the person giving you the details - especially the previous owner - is telling you the truth. That is what is meant by a bill of sale which can be an elaborate form put together by a broker or a back of the envelope document put together in a pub. If the details are bogus, however, it isn't worth the paper it's written on and you could loose all your money and the boat.

 

Proving ownership of a boat has always been a big problem whether it's a narrow boat or a yacht and every now and then you will read about someone who has been taken for a ride.

 

Regards

 

Howard Anguish

[dor]

Generally, it is unlikely that you will be offered stolen property - very few boats are stolen on the canals and those that are are usually recovered in a relatively short time.

 

Whilst few boats are stolen for sale, there have been cases where one partner in the throes of a divorce has sold the boat without the other partner, perhaps the actual owner, knowing about it.

[Shazza]

Hi there,

 

I have been reading this (old!) thread in the hope of finding answers to my own concerns about buying a second-hand boat. I have found "my" boat, had it surveyed, got the residential mooring agreement from the mooring owner, and am currently dealing with a broker and a lender. One of my concerns about the money side is not that the boat is stolen, but the fact that the current owner in this case is obliged to pay to the mooring owner a percentage of the sale price (for the priviledge of being able to sell the boat with the advantage of a mooring). The mooring owner has implied to me that if the current owner defaults on this payment then he will look to me to settle it! Whilst I am doubtful as to how enforceable this would be, I would like to be sure that the current owner does fulfil his obligations. I am probably just being cynical and suspicious - I have probably "overdone" my homework and read too many scare stories about who to trust and how far I go to ascertain whether or not to trust them!

 

Another question I have been trying to find an answer to is: should I give to the broker a copy of the survey??? The broker has asked to see it in order to get an estimate/quote for the jobs that the survey has highlighted as needing to be done (if they all add up to more than I imagine then I may try to renegotiate the price with the current owner). On one hand it will be useful to have an all-in-one quote rather than me spending time searching the internet or phoning for quotes to do all these odd little jobs ... but on the other hand, the broker is in fact acting on behalf of the seller, and what I don't want to risk is the broker passing to the current owner details of the jobs that may need to be done, and the current owner deciding to get them done (to an unknown standard ...) instead of agreeing to lower the price.

 

I'm sorry if this does all sound rather negative - but this is my first boat, my first home of my own, and I want to get it right first time! I would really appreciate any comments :-)

 

Shazza

[NB Alnwick]

If it is of any assistance when we bought Alnwick in September 2005 we agreed a procedure with the owner and the broker as follows:

 

We paid the owner his share (about 93% of the agreed price) by direct bank transfer and sailed the boat away. It was agreed that the broker would invoice us for his 7% and that we would pay him by cheque after we received the invoice. As the broker was (in our case) also the designer and builder of the boat, his invoice was a sort of guarantee and we have subsequently enjoyed excellent support from him.

 

The only alternative would be to pay all the money to the broker but if he then went bust and didn't hand the money over to the owner you might end up with no boat and no money!

[Shazza]

The only alternative would be to pay all the money to the broker but if he then went bust and didn't hand the money over to the owner you might end up with no boat and no money!

 

 

Thank you for your reply. You have reminded me of something else that I must clarify with the lender - who do they pay the money to??? (I know that in bricks-and-mortar purchases where a solicitor is involved then the mortgage company would pay the money to the solicitor to pass on to the vendor) Is this where the boat broker's role is useful? Can I instruct the lender to pay the money to whichever party I choose? Hmmm, I will check on that with them ...

 

I am quite anxious about whether or not to give the survey to the broker, and would be interested in any comments as to whether there's anything (pros or cons) that I've not thought of in that respect!

 

Cheers again!

[NB Alnwick]

I am quite anxious about whether or not to give the survey to the broker, and would be interested in any comments as to whether there's anything (pros or cons) that I've not thought of in that respect!

 

You paid for the survey - it is yours and it is entirely up to you who you show it to.

I would only give a copy to the broker if it was going to win me a further discount or to justify some work to be done at the brokers expense.

 

Also - I think that if you are borrowing the money you probably ought to consult a solicitor.

I know that may seem like an added expense but they can often give helpful advice that will save trouble later.

[Ricardo]

... the current owner in this case is obliged to pay to the mooring owner a percentage of the sale price (for the priviledge of being able to sell the boat with the advantage of a mooring). The mooring owner has implied to me that if the current owner defaults on this payment then he will look to me to settle it! Whilst I am doubtful as to how enforceable this would be, I would like to be sure that the current owner does fulfil his obligations.

 

If you know the amount of this payment then why not withhold it from the seller and pass it on to the mooring owner yourself. OTOH if you don't need the mooring and the seller doesn't make the payment then you shouldn't need to worry because you have no contract with the owner of the mooring.

 

Another question I have been trying to find an answer to is: should I give to the broker a copy of the survey?

 

Not unless it's in your favour to do so. The information contained within the survey has been paid for by yourself and should therefore work for you and not the seller or the broker, let them get their own survey done if they want that information. It's your decision to either offer a lower price and get the work done yourself or ask for certain things to be put right before you agree the asking price.

 

Ric.

[Shazza]

For those who are interested - I took the plunge and passed the survey to the broker, who obtained a quote for the works specified and then negotiated a reduction in the sale price to allow for me to get the jobs done. Mind you, that was about the only useful thing the broker HAS done throughout the transaction ... ! But that's a whole other story ...

 

It looks as though the boat will become mine in the next few weeks, which obviously I'm very pleased and excited about!

[NB Alnwick]

For those who are interested - I took the plunge and passed the survey to the broker, who obtained a quote for the works specified and then negotiated a reduction in the sale price to allow for me to get the jobs done.

 

Good result - the survey has earned its keep!

[Shazza]

http://www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=5592

 

I have just come across the above topic, which addresses some of the points I was concerned about when I made my first post, and I thought it might be useful to include a link for the benefit of anyone reading in the future.