Origin of winding hole?

[Ian B]

Help, What is the origin of the word winding as in winding hole

Thanks

Ian

[carlt]

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QUOTE(Ian B @ Mar 21 2007, 10:29 AM) 117006[/snapback]

Help, What is the origin of the word winding as in winding hole

Thanks

Ian

I can hear a can of worms being opened.

 

My own personal favorite theory is that it originated from the winding action you use, on the tiller, to turn a butty or horse boat.

 

Others will say it's because the boater uses the wind to help them turn the boat (I've always found it to be either no help, or a hindrance though).

[John Orentas]

I'm am amazed this question keeps coming up. Winding a boat whether on a canal or on the sea meant to rotate the boat or ship using the action of the wind, it's that simple.

[David Schweizer]

I'm am amazed this question keeps coming up. Winding a boat whether on a canal or on the sea meant to rotate the boat or ship using the action of the wind, it's that simple.

I know that is your opinion John, but as I have said on numerous occassiobns in the past, I have always believed it to be derived from the archaic pronounciation of wind meaning to turn.

[Supermalc]

It's one of the few irritations for me; I just don't like the sound of it, and should be consigned to the dustbin of history. Change it to turning point, or turning room, or wide bit, anything but that.

 

If you pronounce it as winding hole as in winding a handle it's just confusing as no one understands what you mean, and if you pronounce it as winding hole, as in a stormy day, then it just sounds as if it's a place to fart, and smell.

[John Orentas]

It's one of the few irritations for me; I just don't like the sound of it, and should be consigned to the dustbin of history. Change it to turning point, or turning room, or wide bit, anything but that.

 

If you pronounce it as winding hole as in winding a handle it's just confusing as no one understands what you mean, and if you pronounce it as winding hole, as in a stormy day, then it just sounds as if it's a place to fart, and smell.

 

 

I don't agree, it is one of the few bits of terminology that has gone through the years un-poluted. If it is explained to people as I have on the previous post they understand instantly. Remember this is from the days of horse boats or sail in the case of sea boats. No poncy use of engines and bow thrusters.

[carlt]

I don't agree, it is one of the few bits of terminology that has gone through the years un-poluted. If it is explained to people as I have on the previous post they understand instantly. Remember this is from the days of horse boats or sail in the case of sea boats. No poncy use of engines and bow thrusters.

Thank goodness that's straightened out then. Though I wonder what it's called when the wind isn't favorable?

Just because you think you're right John, doesn't make you right.

 

As I said in my first post, some people think it's a corruption of the verb to wind (as in clock), others believe that it's derived from 'wind assisted' turning.

[John Orentas]

Thank goodness that's straightened out then. Though I wonder what it's called when the wind isn't favorable?

Just because you think you're right John, doesn't make you right.

 

As I said in my first post, some people think it's a corruption of the verb to wind (as in clock), others believe that it's derived from 'wind assisted' turning.

 

 

Ahh. Why can't people understand 'The wind is always favourable' you have just got to hang on to the appropriate end of the boat. The worst case is that you may have to give the boat a shove with your foot or it may only swing through 90 deg. I have tried it under all conditions (except calm) it works.

Edited March 21, 2007 by John Orentas

[NB Alnwick]

Ahh. Why can't people understand 'The wind is always favourable' you have just got to hang on to the appropriate end of the boat. The worst case is that you may have to give the boat a shove with your foot or it may only swing through 90 deg. I have tried it under all conditions (except calm) it works.

 

The wind was certainly favorable to boats 'winding' before Napton Bottom Lock over the weekend - it blew them round as efficiently as a locomotive on a turntable . . .

[David Schweizer]

Ahh. Why can't people understand 'The wind is always favourable' you have just got to hang on to the appropriate end of the boat. The worst case is that you may have to give the boat a shove with your foot or it may only swing through 90 deg. I have tried it under all conditions (except calm) it works.

I know that the wind is always blowing sideways where you live John, but in many other parts of the country the wind is non existant in many places, especially when the canal is running in a valley, and would be of no consequence whatsoever in winding a boat.

[carlt]

I know that the wind is always blowing sideways where you live John

'In one ear and out the other' as my grandad used to say. Usually when insisting a kestrel was a sparrowhawk.

[fender]

Wouldnt it have been a place where the boat was winded round? EG the boat is pushed into the opposite bank and then the horse winds (pulls) the boat's stern round?

 

The gear that horses used to operate at mines to pull up buckets from a shaft was known as a whim, and it might possibly be how the word transmuted to its popular pronoucniation as in winding hole.

 

Canals developed from the mines (eg Worsley) so there might be the connection there.

 

I dont think it has ever been a place where the wind (or lack of it) was used to turn the boat.

[carlt]

Wouldnt it have been a place where the boat was winded round? EG the boat is pushed into the opposite bank and then the horse winds (pulls) the boat's stern round?

 

The gear that horses used to operate at mines to pull up buckets from a shaft was known as a whim, and it might possibly be how the word transmuted to its popular pronoucniation as in winding hole.

 

Canals developed from the mines (eg Worsley) so there might be the connection there.

 

I dont think it has ever been a place where the wind (or lack of it) was used to turn the boat.

If your method of turning a boat is to get off it and hold a bit of string from the bank then maybe you would get a bit of assistance from the wind, if it's in the right direction. But I wouldn't recommend putting the stern of your boat into the winding hole whilst holding the bow string ever. You've only got to get the stern badly hung up and your only options are to wait for the next boat, or walk the tight rope.

[John Orentas]

I give up !

[NB Alnwick]

I give up !

 

Don't do that - it only a wind up . . .

[fender]

If your method of turning a boat is to get off it and hold a bit of string from the bank then maybe you would get a bit of assistance from the wind, if it's in the right direction. But I wouldn't recommend putting the stern of your boat into the winding hole whilst holding the bow string ever. You've only got to get the stern badly hung up and your only options are to wait for the next boat, or walk the tight rope.

 

I didnt say put the stern into the opposite bank! The horse couldnt pull the boat's stern round if that had indeed happened.

 

What would have happened is that the boat would have been towed from the rear of the boat and the tiller pushed over hard to force the bows into the opposite bank and then the horse could simply continue to wind the boat round until it was facing the other way. Very simple and nothing to do with the wind.

[carlt]

I didnt say put the stern into the opposite bank! The horse couldnt pull the boat's stern round if that had indeed happened.

 

What would have happened is that the boat would have been towed from the rear of the boat and the tiller pushed over hard to force the bows into the opposite bank and then the horse could simply continue to wind the boat round until it was facing the other way. Very simple and nothing to do with the wind.

Sorry fender, I was agreeing with you and then carrying on to say that john's method is okay for novices who may have trouble steering the boat from the helm, but the usual method is better, and doesn't rely on the vagaries of the elements.

 

And you're right, the horse was used to turn the boat, not the breeze.

 

 

I give up !

John you really should save your exasperation for someone a little less experienced. You thinking that you're right all the time doesn't actually mean that you are. Your opinion is just as valid as mine. And, unless we can go back and resurrect the poor soul who first used the term, ask him why the hell he said it, then replant him, then either theory could be correct. The fact that it was someone who used to actually work my butty who explained why she used the term leads me to stick by my original idea.

[NB Alnwick]

One of the biggest problems we have to live with today is 'information overload' - we are constantly bombarded with information over the internet but a great deal of it does not trace back to solid data - it is often no more than an individuals opinion, imagination or at best interpretation - that is then broadcast and repeated at an incredible rate. I have no reason to doubt any of the individuals that post on this forum but we do so often see differing accounts of what should be facts.

 

The fact that turning a boat is called 'winding' may be a real 'fact' and many people in this forum may have heard working boat-men and women referring to it as such, but some further research is probably desirable to establish the true origin of this term - at the moment, all we have is educated, but differing, opinions.

Edited March 21, 2007 by NB Alnwick

[gaggle]

I'm am amazed this question keeps coming up. Winding a boat whether on a canal or on the sea meant to rotate the boat or ship using the action of the wind, it's that simple.

i could believe that, but how did they wind a boat if no wind was blowing?.

a boat could be wound around if there was no wind, so would it make more sense if a boat was wound and not winded around.

[NB Alnwick]

i could believe that, but how did they wind a boat if no wind was blowing?.

a boat could be wound around if there was no wind, so would it make more sense if a boat was wound and not winded around.

 

Alythough I do not have first hand experience, I understand that many of the people that worked narrowboats had difficulty with the pronunciation of numerous terms and place names. For example did they mean Newbold when they said "Newb 'ole", or Helm when they said "Elum" . . .

 

Perhaps the "Winding" was just another mis-pronunciation - which is why I said in an earlier post that we need hard facts . . .

[carlt]

One of the biggest problems we have to live with today is 'information overload' - we are constantly bombarded with information over the internet but a great deal of it does not trace back to solid data - it is often no more than an individuals opinion, imagination or at best interpretation - that is then broadcast and repeated at an incredible rate. I have no reason to doubt any of the individuals that post on this forum but we do so often see differing accounts of what should be facts.

 

The fact that turning a boat is called 'winding' may be a real 'fact' and many people in this forum may have heard working boat-men and women referring to it as such, but some further research is probably desirable to establish the true origin of this term - at the moment, all we have is educated, but differing, opinions.

My point exactly. Except, if you tell a novice that he can turn a boat round by stepping off, holding the bow rope and letting the wind take the stern into the winding hole and round, then he is heading for trouble. If this is attempted in the wolfhampcote winding hole then you could easily get hung up on the big rock which lives there, and I'm sure there are many other holes which are too shallow to accommodate the blunt end of a boat.

[David Schweizer]

And you're right, the horse was used to turn the boat, not the breeze.

John you really should save your exasperation for someone a little less experienced. You thinking that you're right all the time doesn't actually mean that you are. Your opinion is just as valid as mine. And, unless we can go back and resurrect the poor soul who first used the term, ask him why the hell he said it, then replant him, then either theory could be correct. The fact that it was someone who used to actually work my butty who explained why she used the term leads me to stick by my original idea.

If Rose Whitlock told you, and I am assuming that is who you are referring to, then it almost certainly correct. As you will know, she came from a long line of Working Boat families and was a stickler for getting the traditions and terminology correct. Furthermore she knew how to work horse boats and would have been familiar with the winding techniques using a horse to pull the boat round. I am not sure that it was her who told me the origins of the term Winding, but it would almost certainly have been one of the ex Barlows crews.

[WJM]

The stongest clue has to be in the pronounciation used by the old boat folk - How did the Arthur Brays and the Rose Whitlocks pronounce it - Win-D or Wine-D?

[anhar]

The stongest clue has to be in the pronounciation used by the old boat folk - How did the Arthur Brays and the Rose Whitlocks pronounce it - Win-D or Wine-D?

I'd don't think that is the clue at all. Regional accents, the effluxion of time and boatspeak as it was back then cloud the meaning as given by the pronunciation. What I mean is that however they pronounced it, it doesn't really tell us whether they actually meant wind as in blow or wind as in clock. As others have remarked here those people had a distinct vernacular so they could easily have pronounced it one way and meant the other.

 

The real clue I'd guess is how they turned their boats in the majority of cases. Was the wind frequently used to assist turning their boats? If yes, then the likelihood is that the origin is wind as in blow, whatever the pronunciation. If no, then the likelihood is that it has nothing to do with the wind and they meant wind, to turn as in winding a clock, again whatever the pronunciation.

 

I don't know the answer but I can't see that the pronunciation is the key indicator, rather the actual practice. If I had to take a guess, I'd imagine that they meant wind as in clock, whichever way they actually said it. This is because I presume a horse boat had to be turned by pulling it round on ropes. That action is a little similar to winding something up by pulling on a string or chain, like weight driven clocks or a windlass on a lock mechanism etc. You wind these round, which is what you must have had to do with those boats. These days we should pronounce the word therefore wine-d in modern speak. Most people seem to say win-d which is idiosyncratic but so what, odd pronunciations are legion in English.

 

The real question as I say is what does it actually mean, not the exact pronunciation.

 

regards

Steve

Edited March 21, 2007 by anhar

[Supermalc]

Well I don't care either way, it's still a crap expression If I want to turn my boat around I just turn the steering wheel to the right, after going to the left side of the river and she turns round. As she turns on her axis I only need 10ft.....just ANOTHER good reason not to have a 60 or 70ft boat.

 

Oh, and just to wind the purists up, I talk about front and back, and left and right, especially in a loud voice with people about at a lock.............