Narowboat Viewing 3

[greyowl]

lol, you missed one Forum Dude, BSP`s response to my post, still shows boat name

[Bones]

Thanks - very wise, I have.

 

Now please could you take the name out of your above post too please? ( This could go round and round... hahaha!)

Thanks, mate. Much appreciated.

 

Just out of interest, is there any great benefit from having a 58ft boat (other than the corresponding price reduction and a few obscurely short-locked canals) - I'm just wondering whether I've missed something important about that?

 

Thanks

 

Lisa

 

there are more places to turn around with a shorter boat. The extra feet may pay off as there are two of you!

[Keeping Up]

lol, you missed one Forum Dude, BSP`s response to my post, still shows boat name

 

Thanks greyowl - I've edited that one as well now

 

there are more places to turn around with a shorter boat. The extra feet may pay off as there are two of you!

 

I agree, go for the extra length. When you've had "words" there's no substitute for being able to spend the rest of the day 60 feet apart.

[greyowl]

you could always get a butty with a dog house on

[kawaton]

I can't see the asking price?

 

Its on the website selling the boat.

But as to which website that is, im afraid i cant say.

[tobytimothy]

With a 65ft boat you will probably not be able to use the following waterways

 

Bridgewater & Taunton canal

Calder & Hebble canal (to Sowerby Bridge)

Driffield Navigation

Huddlesfield Broad Canal

Middle Level 40ft river

Middle level Well creek

Monmouthshire & Brecon canal

Neath Canal

Pocklington canal

River Derwent

Ripon Canal

Little Ouse

River Parrett

River Rother

River Ure

Swansea canal

Witham Navigation Drains

 

I think thats all unless anyone more knowledgeable can add any. I realise that some listed would require a boat being lifted and moved, but Ive listed them because who knows where someone wants to cruise and what waters may eventually end up being connected to the system!!!

 

As stated by Bones a 65' boat may not be able to be turned round in some places a 58ft boat could.

the only other factor would be that some people may be more comfortable manoeuvring a 58fter rather than a 65fter.

 

At the end of the day its a toss up, which do you prefer more room or freedom to cruise anywhere?

[alan_fincher]

Just out of interest, is there any great benefit from having a 58ft boat (other than the corresponding price reduction and a few obscurely short-locked canals) - I'm just wondering whether I've missed something important about that?

 

Thanks

 

Lisa

 

I'm not sure if anyone has picked up this point or not.

 

It really depends where you intend to be based, and how far maximum you ever expect travel.

 

In the South you will not be much restricted, but in the North a 65 foot length will rule out more than just "obscure" canals.

 

For example BWB quote Leeds and Liverpool (Wigan to Leeds) as 62 foot max.

 

I guess it's possible it's one of those you might squeeze 65 foot into the broad locks by going diagonally across, but somehow I doubt it. (I don't know the Northern canals, but someone on here should be able to tell you where a 65 footer will not go).

 

[EDIT: Sorry I just cross posted with tobytimothy, who DOESN'T list the L&L, so perhaps you can squeeze a 65 footer through...]

 

You mention cost. Stating the "bleedin' obvious", but clearly it's not just purchase price. Licence costs, mooring costs (usually but not always), and blacking and painting will all be ongoing costs that are proportionally higher with a 65foot boat than a 58 foot one.

 

But I agree, she looks from what I can see a far better prospect than the last one, (and certainly the one before that !?!).

 

Thanks for sharing your searches with us - most illuminating !

 

I'm sure you'll let us know what you decide..... (I'm assuming currently at the top end of your budget ?).

 

 

Alan

Edited March 4, 2007 by alan_fincher

[Keeping Up]

Many of the canals on Tobytimothy's list are pretty well inaccessible to narrowboats anyway (nobody can use the Derwent surely?). I'd take issue about the Witham Navigable Drains: almost all of them are accessible with a 70-foot boat, there are only a couple of junctions at the Northern extremity that you can't get round. We went there last year (Keeping Up is 67 foot). Similarly we didn't have any difficulty on the middle level Well Creek the year before.

 

In fact the only significant places we cannot get to with 67 feet are the Lancaster, the Leeds and Liverpool, and the area to the north & east of Huddersfield (which is why this summer we'll be going up-and-back the Huddersfield Narrow and then up-and-back the Rochdale)

 

Allan

[BlueStringPudding]

Thanks greyowl - I've edited that one as well now

I agree, go for the extra length. When you've had "words" there's no substitute for being able to spend the rest of the day 60 feet apart.

 

Thanks again for the choice edits!

 

I'll quote that about bing 60ft apart to my other half - that'll amuse him!

[BlueStringPudding]

I can't see the asking price?

 

It's tuppence and a toffee-apple shy of £30k. I'd need to whittle that price down by at least £5k even before survey. I'm hoping the badly rusty battery locker, leaking window (allbeit only one of them) and dated bathroom could be bargaining points there. Plus unlike the other ex-hires I've looked at, they've stripped all the "bits" from this hoping I'll buy them back from their chandlery (boat hook, pole, boarding plank, mooring pins, fenders etc) - Oh and there's the very scraped paint-job too. Also the second loo looks "a little well used" to say the least and I'd like to get that replaced at some point. Oh, and lastly, if the inverter is only a modified sine wave, I might have problems running a washing machine off it (tbc!) and they did big-up the idea of a washing machine on board in the future when I spoke to them about it. (Not much of a bargaining tool but anything's worth a try!)

 

Apparently the price has been dropped from £36k (or so they and the head offices say) and even though they pretended it's only been for sale for two months I suspect it would have been around since the end of last summer. So maybe they'll work a little harder at dropping that price further for me in order to shift it?

 

What do you think, everyone? I've never had to barter like this before! What can I feasibly shave off the price and under what terms?

Edited March 5, 2007 by BlueStringPudding

[Dan]

What do you think, everyone? I've never had to barter like this before! What can I feasibly shave off the price and under what terms?

 

The boat will have been for sale only since the end of the season - which is the end of October -four months.

 

A boat of this size and standard for 25k is, as you have found from all your efforts optimistic, but nothing's impossible. Bargaining is a little difficult. If it were me and you rang up and offered, say 23k I would flatly refuse and be pretty annoyed you had 'wasted my time' with an insulting and unrealistic price. It's also not the best start at what is an importantly good relationship with them. So I would give serious thought to what your opening offer is.

 

With the new season starting in four weeks time they will no doubt want to sell it as soon as they can, but you must also remember they do not have the financial urgency to move it on that a private buyer with a replacement or new build in mind would have, which to my mind makes an exceptionally low offer even more unlikely to be accepted.

 

Finally, this boat seems a good buy, and ideal layout/style etc for what you had in mind, but prepare yourself as 17 years of hire use, on the Llangollen canal may mean the survey brings up a few areas of attention - so you may need to bear in mind or have a second plan of your approach and financial positions after survey

 

I too love these threads - a great read, and very interesting, love the pictures too - good luck!

 

Dan

[BlueStringPudding]

What do you think, everyone? I've never had to barter like this before! What can I feasibly shave off the price and under what terms?

The boat will have been for sale only since the end of the season - which is the end of October -four months.

 

A boat of this size and standard for 25k is, as you have found from all your efforts optimistic, but nothing's impossible. Bargaining is a little difficult. If it were me and you rang up and offered, say 23k I would flatly refuse and be pretty annoyed you had 'wasted my time' with an insulting and unrealistic price. It's also not the best start at what is an importantly good relationship with them. So I would give serious thought to what your opening offer is.

 

With the new season starting in four weeks time they will no doubt want to sell it as soon as they can, but you must also remember they do not have the financial urgency to move it on that a private buyer with a replacement or new build in mind would have, which to my mind makes an exceptionally low offer even more unlikely to be accepted.

 

Finally, this boat seems a good buy, and ideal layout/style etc for what you had in mind, but prepare yourself as 17 years of hire use, on the Llangollen canal may mean the survey brings up a few areas of attention - so you may need to bear in mind or have a second plan of your approach and financial positions after survey

 

I too love these threads - a great read, and very interesting, love the pictures too - good luck!

 

Dan

 

 

Thanks Dan.

 

General consensus from contributors to the forum was that if I have a £25k budget I should be looking at £30k boats. Have I wasted my weekend, I wonder, and should go back to looking at £23k rust buckets?!?!??

[Keeping Up]

Thanks Dan.

 

General consensus from contributors to the forum was that if I have a £25k budget I should be looking at £30k boats. Have I wasted my weekend, I wonder, and should go back to looking at £23k rust buckets?!?!??

Now that you've seen the difference between a £25k boat (which may need £5k spent on it) and a £30k boat (which may not) there's probably no going back. I don't think you've wasted your weekend, and you did suggest your budget might be flexible.

 

I agree with Dan, an offer that was way below £25k would probably not be seen as serious and would not be a good start. Most successful negotiations in this countrey end up somewhere mid-way between the two parties starting prices; so you could try taking £30k as their starting price and pitch your starting price an equal amount below what you consider to be your absolute maximum. So if you think it'd be worth paying £28, start at £26. And try to get them to throw in as many things as possible that wouldn't cost them as much as they'd cost you (blacking, painting, repairs etc)

 

But that's just my humble opinion. I wouldn't lay claim to being a skilled negotiator.

 

Allan

[BlueStringPudding]

Now that you've seen the difference between a £25k boat (which may need £5k spent on it) and a £30k boat (which may not) there's probably no going back. I don't think you've wasted your weekend, and you did suggest your budget might be flexible.

 

I agree with Dan, an offer that was way below £25k would probably not be seen as serious and would not be a good start. Most successful negotiations in this countrey end up somewhere mid-way between the two parties starting prices; so you could try taking £30k as their starting price and pitch your starting price an equal amount below what you consider to be your absolute maximum. So if you think it'd be worth paying £28, start at £26. And try to get them to throw in as many things as possible that wouldn't cost them as much as they'd cost you (blacking, painting, repairs etc)

 

But that's just my humble opinion. I wouldn't lay claim to being a skilled negotiator.

 

Allan

 

Hmm... this doesn't sound at all promising. The "flexibility" of the budget had to include survey costs, washing machine and contingency. So to make an offer a grand over my boat-buying budget, and just four grand under my maximum leaves me little or no contingency once a "mid-point" has been agreed.

 

Back to the drawing board...

[RichardH]

The excitement is killing me.

 

If you don't get to buy it do we get to find out the location as it does look a nice vessel.

 

I nearly fell about laughing when I saw the advert for the 76 Piper on this site http://www.sherbornewharf.co.uk/boatsales.htm 25k !!! Or do you take the view that it is a well maintained boat which will offer no problems.

 

Boats are an appreciating assett in my opinion and the market is still strong given the affordable housing shortage.

 

I'm no expert but are you expecting to pay for the boat outright/is it your proposed home/and if so for how long.

 

If this is a ten year + lifestyle plan why not extend your borrowing, go for something awesome and relax that it isn't going to be a cash cow.

[BlueStringPudding]

The excitement is killing me.

 

If you don't get to buy it do we get to find out the location as it does look a nice vessel.

 

I nearly fell about laughing when I saw the advert for the 76 Piper on this site http://www.sherbornewharf.co.uk/boatsales.htm 25k !!! Or do you take the view that it is a well maintained boat which will offer no problems. I don't expect any boat not to offer any problems... hence having to have a contingency budget. Too risky otherwise, when it's going to be our home

Boats are an appreciating assett in my opinion and the market is still strong given the affordable housing shortage. Except when the depreciate...!

 

I'm no expert but are you expecting to pay for the boat outright/is it your proposed home/and if so for how long. Pay for the boat with a personal loan, contingency from current flexiloan - don't want to stretch the debt further than necessary - because of above reasons!

 

If this is a ten year + lifestyle plan why not extend your borrowing, go for something awesome and relax that it isn't going to be a cash cow. That would suit some people but it's not what we want to do. Our budget is our budget and not being a homeowner I can't secure a loan (and wouldn't want to necessarily the way interest rates are sneaking upwards) and as for Kev's finances - that's for a whole different forum! We're happy with our approach to financing this and are aware of the limitations. But as I've said elsewhere, we're not in a hurry and if a certain boat can only be ours by stretching our finances to breaking point, it's not worth the risk. The idea is that we want to live the lifestyle and to be stressed about money to do it would destroy the whole point of being on the cut. Thanks for the optimistic suggestion though!

Edited March 5, 2007 by BlueStringPudding

[RichardH]

Have you looked at this one http://www.bluewatermarina.co.uk/sales/ste...s/eve/index.htm Looks like it needs some TLC

 

Mine is a Dartline and a cracker at that. Given the price of this you could spend a bit getting the boat looking how you want and still be well within budget.

 

Or as per your last note (and sorry if I sounded like a financial advisor) put up with the chinz and do it slowly over time which has been my approach.

 

The cratch and pram hood are fab for liveaboards as they give you a valuable wet area and alone would cost best part of 2-3k.

 

It has Lister Air Cooled I'd guess an SR3 - a good if rather noisy workhorse - don't be shocked if it looks like Thomas the Tank engine on start up !!

 

Looks like an ex-Llan-g boat as the idiot bars have been cut near the front - so definately get the hull checked. But if you had the full base plate renewed it would last for another 20 years. Mine was done by Anglo-Welsh 5 years before I bought it so it may have been done.

[BlueStringPudding]

Have you looked at this one http://www.bluewatermarina.co.uk/sales/ste...s/eve/index.htm Looks like it needs some TLC

 

Mine is a Dartline and a cracker at that. Given the price of this you could spend a bit getting the boat looking how you want and still be well within budget.

 

Or as per your last note (and sorry if I sounded like a financial advisor) put up with the chinz and do it slowly over time which has been my approach.

 

The cratch and pram hood are fab for liveaboards as they give you a valuable wet area and alone would cost best part of 2-3k.

 

It has Lister Air Cooled I'd guess an SR3 - a good if rather noisy workhorse - don't be shocked if it looks like Thomas the Tank engine on start up !!

 

Looks like an ex-Llan-g boat as the idiot bars have been cut near the front - so definately get the hull checked. But if you had the full base plate renewed it would last for another 20 years. Mine was done by Anglo-Welsh 5 years before I bought it so it may have been done.

 

Hi Richard,

 

Thanks for that. I contacted that broker a couple of weeks ago about that boat and they sent this response:

 

"The boat builder was Dartline but we would have no information regarding the fit out as this will probably have been altered over the last 20 years of her life. A survey was carried out in 2003 of the boat and no overplating of the hull was reported. I am sure you will appreciate that an out of water survey would be advisable for a boat of this age and would be the only foolproof way of answering the questions you have. There is a 240v hookup but no inverter.

Internal fit out is probably what you would expect to find on a boat of this age, some of the windows show signs of leaking but again this is not uncommon with second hand boats. I do not think there is anything that should particularly give you concern but obviously an inspection would alay any of these fears."

 

Which while slightly evasive regarding questions I asked them about the steelwork, it is at least good and honest! Can't knock them for that!

 

Obviously a boat that cheap is likely to need some extensive work.

 

Remind me - what kind of hull thickness were Dartline boats built to in 1984?

Also, to get a boat rebottomed costs about how much, do you think?

 

Thanks

 

Lisa

 

Or should I still consider the boat I fell for at thw weekend...? Tricky but I've got the impression from everyone here that it's going to be out of my league (financially).

Edited March 5, 2007 by BlueStringPudding

[RichardH]

Hi Richard,

 

Which while slightly evasive regarding questions I asked them about the steelwork, it is at least good and honest! Can't knock them for that!

 

Remind me - what kind of hull thickness were Dartline boats built to in 1984? - Mine was 10mm.

 

Also, to get a boat rebottomed costs about how much, do you think?

 

Thanks

 

Lisa

 

Or should I still consider the boat I fell for at thw weekend...? Tricky but I've got the impression from everyone here that it's going to be out of my league (financially).

 

I think they have been honest and yes a boat that age would definately need a survey. The good news is that there is a slipway a stones throw from Blue Water. Possibly ask the broker to strike a deal that if you buy it he goes halves - it would be something that could help a future buyer. Be cheeky - if you don't ask you don't get. Mine had a new bottom but even then the first time I had it out it needed a bit of overplating. Some friends had their 60footer re-bottomed and I think it cost 2500 but as he says to me the boat will now outlive him (he's 65 !) Best thing to do there is contact some of the advertisers in WW and just obtain a ball park figure. Gary Peacock who regularly writes here is very respected in the building trade and may be able to give you an idea.

 

 

Obviously a boat that cheap is likely to need some extensive work- possibly - but equally it could be the same reason why terraced houses that 90 year olds have lived in often take a while to sell. We live in a pre-packaged society where everyone wants everything to be done for them. My boat was quite chintzy and had vile pink curtains for example. The yard manager actually told me at the time people had walked away for that reason !! I kid you not.

 

Without turning into a life consultant, it seems to be critical to get on the ladder first, see if you like life on the cut and then plan next steps. If this boat is solid then it is a good start and can be developed from there.

 

It may of course be a big pile of poo !!

Edited March 5, 2007 by RichardH

[BlueStringPudding]

I think they have been honest and yes a boat that age would definately need a survey. The good news is that there is a slipway a stones throw from Blue Water. Possibly ask the broker to strike a deal that if you buy it he goes halves - it would be something that could help a future buyer. Be cheeky - if you don't ask you don't get. Mine had a new bottom but even then the first time I had it out it needed a bit of overplating. Some friends had their 60footer re-bottomed and I think it cost 2500 but as he says to me the boat will now outlive him (he's 65 !) Best thing to do there is contact some of the advertisers in WW and just obtain a ball park figure. Gary Peacock who regularly writes here is very respected in the building trade and may be able to give you an idea.

Obviously a boat that cheap is likely to need some extensive work- possibly - but equally it could be the same reason why terraced houses that 90 year olds have lived in often take a while to sell. We live in a pre-packaged society where everyone wants everything to be done for them. My boat was quite chintzy and had vile pink curtains for example. The yard manager actually told me at the time people had walked away for that reason !! I kid you not.

 

Without turning into a life consultant, it seems to be critical to get on the ladder first, see if you like life on the cut and then plan next steps. If this boat is solid then it is a good start and can be developed from there.

 

It may of course be a big pile of poo !!

 

Hahah! Yes, piles of poo... seen a few of those floating (just!)

 

I've got the impression from elsewhere on this forum that an overplated hull might be a bit risky, as depending on the integrity of the weld, water could get between the plates and cause more damage. But to be completely rebottomed, I presume, reduces the risk as there isn't a sandwich of steel created...? But equals more spondoolees, I imagine.

 

Not sure what to do really - opt for the cushty boat and put in an offer that'll get me laughed out of the boatyard, or keep looking at piles of poo till I find one slightly less pooey than the others!

 

Oh blimey...

[Orphiel]

Not sure what to do really - opt for the cushty boat and put in an offer that'll get me laughed out of the boatyard, or keep looking at piles of poo till I find one slightly less pooey than the others!

 

You could always put in an offer, then if you do get laughed out of the boatyard, look at more piles of poo. If all you lose is being laughed at, surely the off-chance they'll say yes is worth it? Also, as you say you want to keep some of your budget back for work needing to be done on the boat, wouldn't you have less needed to be spare if the boat needed less done?

 

Meg

[BlueStringPudding]

You could always put in an offer, then if you do get laughed out of the boatyard, look at more piles of poo. If all you lose is being laughed at, surely the off-chance they'll say yes is worth it? Also, as you say you want to keep some of your budget back for work needing to be done on the boat, wouldn't you have less needed to be spare if the boat needed less done?

 

Meg

 

Sound advice, Meg, thanks.

 

Yes I'd need less spare wonga, of course, but I'd still need some! If the offer balanced out at say £28k, that leaves me two grand to pay for lifting out of the water/dry dock, survey, washing machine installation, blacking, paint and any other expenses or repairs that creep up in the next couple of months. That's not much, I don't think.

 

But maybe we'll go and see the boat again, and if Kev likes it as much as I do we'll put in an offer of £24k if they don't do any work on it, £26k if they'll take care of the blacking and knackered bits of paintwork... subject to survey of course.

 

[Dan]

Hi Lisa

 

I'd definately advise against dismissing it if it fits the bill just because your a couple of grand out with the calculator! Putting in an offer is definately better than not doing, just make it clear that the offer is your best you can stretch to, or near to it, that if they turn it down you cannot improve on it, and that you think it is fair based on the age, fitout quality (I'd think the wall linings being corded carpet over wallboard as seen on the roof in your pic is a stronger arguament for your offer than the inverter is incompatable, as reaslistically this is just unfortunate, and not a devaluer).

 

Also if you do quote negatives be a bit wary, as if they do think the negatives stated unreasonable/unrealistic in the price/size bracket they'll be more likely to cast you offer aside as unrealistic, and the negotiations are immediately ended.

 

Negotiating for all these things is pretty difficult - but realistically their prime business is not boat sales either, all the same being in business whoever is the decision maker there may have a head start on you - but it's definately worth an offer - at least then if it's not to be you know you've tried - if you leave it and don't put in an offer you may always wonder.

 

Negotiating is always a guessing game, even if an educated one - so you just never know - you might offer 23k and they accept it! Personally I'd be suprised though - the percentage drop and proportion to other craft for sale I dont think adds up!

 

All the very best, I hope it works out for you and you get the boat you want, at a price you can live with

 

Dan

Edited March 5, 2007 by Dan

[BlueStringPudding]

Hi Lisa

 

I'd definately advise against dismissing it if it fits the bill just because your a couple of grand out with the calculator! Putting in an offer is definately better than not doing, just make it clear that the offer is your best you can stretch to, or near to it, that if they turn it down you cannot improve on it, and that you think it is fair based on the age, fitout quality (I'd think the wall linings being corded carpet over wallboard as seen on the roof in your pic is a stronger arguament for your offer than the inverter is incompatable, as reaslistically this is just unfortunate, and not a devaluer).

 

Also if you do quote negatives be a bit wary, as if they do think the negatives stated unreasonable/unrealistic in the price/size bracket they'll be more likely to cast you offer aside as unrealistic, and the negotiations are immediately ended.

 

Negotiating for all these things is pretty difficult - but realistically their prime business is not boat sales either, all the same being in business whoever is the decision maker there may have a head start on you - but it's definately worth an offer - at least then if it's not to be you know you've tried - if you leave it and don't put in an offer you may always wonder.

 

Negotiating is always a guessing game, even if an educated one - so you just never know - you might offer 23k and they accept it! Personally I'd be suprised though - the percentage drop and proportion to other craft for sale I dont think adds up!

 

All the very best, I hope it works out for you and you get the boat you want, at a price you can live with

 

Dan

 

Thanks, Dan. Of course you're right. There's no harm in trying, is there? And there's be nothing worse than wondering "what if...?"

 

Okay - Kev and are going back to check it out together as oignal planned. I'll stop being a doubting Thomas!

 

Cheers, mate.

[DaveR]

Lisa,

 

Blue Water have a slip themselves and have a carriage and track laying vehicle to haul boats out of the water.

 

I am moored there having bought the Bensham through them. I have no problems with them and I think that Kevin is being honest without promising anything as the fear of litigation strikes everywhere. Blue Water have a list of surveyors that they use, all are independent and the one I used produced a pretty good report.

 

Regards

 

Dave R