complaint procedures

Phil Speight · March 3, 2007

Pirate

What I suggest is the following, and these are my opinions only,

1. Follow the suggestions of your lawyer, if he says take the blog down then do it. You can always put it back up when everything is settled.

2. If the builder is offering to put things right in 2 weeks you should go with that. From what I can see the problems can be fixed. You should list them out then agree them in writing after a meeting with him and then get them done promptly

3. Dont escalate the situation any further it wont help

4. You are unlikely to get any compensation in lieu of the boat being fixed by the builder, however I would set a realistic figure of say £1000 to go somewhere towards your costs in addition to the boat being fixed and ask for this amount

From what I can see you have a nice boat from a reputable builder you need to get the problems put right by him then walk away and enjoy your boat

Good luck with it all

Charles

anhar · March 3, 2007

Maesbury are featuring the Westwood on their site as an example of their work

http://www.maesburymarineservices.co.uk/Westwood.htm

Talk about irony

regards

Steve

Edited March 3, 2007 by anhar

Pirate · March 3, 2007

Pirate

What I suggest is the following, and these are my opinions only,

1. Follow the suggestions of your lawyer, if he says take the blog down then do it. You can always put it back up when everything is settled.

2. If the builder is offering to put things right in 2 weeks you should go with that. From what I can see the problems can be fixed. You should list them out then agree them in writing after a meeting with him and then get them done promptly

3. Dont escalate the situation any further it wont help

4. You are unlikely to get any compensation in lieu of the boat being fixed by the builder, however I would set a realistic figure of say £1000 to go somewhere towards your costs in addition to the boat being fixed and ask for this amount

From what I can see you have a nice boat from a reputable builder you need to get the problems put right by him then walk away and enjoy your boat

Good luck with it all

Charles

If

So you believe these stories too now? Do you see how I have been taken in ? Good quality work probably does takes longer though.

I do have estimates for the repairwork you know, and have been told it`s over 3 months work and at a cost of over half the price of the boat, these estimates wont stand for much longer as the work required is getting worse by the day. These people are not my friends plucking figures from the air that suite me. I have two surveys, and who do you want me to listen to?

Do you think I should settle for a botch job that just looks ok, or should I expect it to be done properly as it should have been done in the begining so that I can have total piece of mind that I now have a new boat? i/e the bare shell inside reprimed and reisulated, this involves huge ammounts of work, its not just a fit out it`s a strip out and refit out double the work. Or should I settle for him doing just where he can get to easily? Answer these questions as if it were your money ploughed into it please, what would you expect?

I dont recall mentioning any of this before someone on here got their noses in my business

This is where we differ

Will you buy it from me for what I paid please?

Look your self how fast he responded to my build Blogg and looking after his own intrests, then compare this to the time taken to look after mine.

I think that says it all.

Any way this I really hope is the last I will say on the whole subject, although you keep goading me making it hard to ignore. I am going to switch off my pc now and try to stay clear of here, then I`m going to arrange to get my boat out of the water and try not to even think about it again. Untill its out of my life.

You will at least all be able to watch and see for your selves just how long this takes to settle.

carlt · March 3, 2007

I won't add anything to this, Pirate, except to wish you well, and I hope you are able to enjoy your home soon.

Freetochat · March 3, 2007

Pirate

What I suggest is the following, and these are my opinions only,

1. Follow the suggestions of your lawyer, if he says take the blog down then do it. You can always put it back up when everything is settled.

2. If the builder is offering to put things right in 2 weeks you should go with that. From what I can see the problems can be fixed. You should list them out then agree them in writing after a meeting with him and then get them done promptly

3. Dont escalate the situation any further it wont help

4. You are unlikely to get any compensation in lieu of the boat being fixed by the builder, however I would set a realistic figure of say £1000 to go somewhere towards your costs in addition to the boat being fixed and ask for this amount

From what I can see you have a nice boat from a reputable builder you need to get the problems put right by him then walk away and enjoy your boat

Good luck with it all

Charles

Now is not the time to take the pressure off. The builder is having to take notice, and whilst it may be developing into a 'laywers gift' it is getting a response. Everything coming from Pirate is reasonable in the circumstances, and he would be foolish to lie that he is able to support his complaint through photographs and documents if he was not in this position. Remember, if the builder had done the job properly in the first place, there would be no complaint. If on finding the problems, the builder had taken responsibility for the poor workmanship, his own or employees/contractors, there would be no escalation. It is one thing to make an error, it is another when you avoid your responsibilities. The builder has only himself to blame. He should have used similar enthusiasm in putting right the problems, that he probably done in collecting his payments. On another note, I hope he has insurance to cover his work and liabilities?

Supermalc · March 3, 2007

I certainly don't get involved in any dispute, slanging match, either in person, on the phone, net or even throught transfer.

However although I've not met Pirate yet, I have been chatting to him for the time of the build, and spoken to him on the telephone a couple of times or so.

As far as I am aware, what he has said on his Blog is true. Even before his shell was delivered he met someone and became worried. I tried to reassure him. Then the windows were cut out wrongly. I saw the pictures that evening.

We had discussed him travelling to Lincoln last year, as he was supposed to have taken delivery of his boat in April. The shell hadn't arrived by June. And he had paid his builder a huge amount of money. I still tried to reassure him.

Eventually he took delivery, after having to live in a rented property for much longer than he had proposed to.

I have not yet met Pirate, but do hope to. We were planning a little cruise similar to I had with Allan and Debbie last year (keeping up). That is my only involvement.

Even before he had ordered the boat, I advised him to get a second hand one. Obviously he now wishes he had.

I have kept quiet over this whole sorry saga, but as I have some knowledge of the facts, I thought it only fair to post them.

mikevye · March 3, 2007

The "two sides of the story" lobby are being totally ignored in their efforts to defuse the situation and thus obtain an amicable solution to this problem so maybe this statement of FACT will help those who have conclusively made their minds up either way.

Our boat has been built from the ground up by Maesbury, not a sub-contracted shell. It is a built to a high specification including a hydraulic bowthruster and yet cost a lot less than the figure given for the problem boat. We have experienced none of the problems mentioned in this and other forums/blogs. BUT we were aware at an early stage that the insulation was so thermally efficient that with the doors and windows shut the condensation soon literally dripped of surfaces within the boat. As experienced boaters we provide through ventilation and the problem was minimised had we not have done this our woodwork would definately be showing signs of advanced mildew, the insulation would be damp and water would be dripping on our state of the art mattress which cost £500 . We have now obtained a dehumidifier which has negated the problem completely.

Freetochat · March 3, 2007

Mikevye - it is not the case that a two sided story is being ignored, but more that a complaint well documented is not being resolved with the only replies being well intentioned third party assurances. It is good that you had the knowledge and were able to resolve your teething problems and have a boat as desired. Pirate on the other hand is not in that position. Your cost comment is equally interesting. I wonder how that came about?

Supermalc · March 3, 2007

Well I for one appreciate what you are saying Mike. The condensation could be caused by too good an insulation, and draught proofing. Therefore the condensation is caused by the bodies inside the boat, not th gaps in the insulation which cause condensaton on the inside of the steel, it being warmer than the outside.

Is this the case will all good quality boats? and if so WHY haven't others mentioned this, or is this just a peculiarity with this builders boats?

Some houses with cavity wall insulation, double loft insulation and excellent draught proofing suffered from this.

My fridge had a tiny leak in the door seal, yet frosted up in a few days.

However this doesn't explain the other faults. Especially the paint, the rusty 'brass' screws, and the runners made up from cut-offs, not one piece.

It also doesn't explain why a boat promised in April was not even started in June, or finished until October (I think).

New boats/cars/houses/aeroplanes often have a few faults that require rectifying, and if these are done competently, and quickly there is of course no problem.

Sadly this doesn't seem to have been the case with this boat.

Big Steve · March 3, 2007

Condensation occurs when warm moist air meets a cold surfaces, so good insulation will not cause condenstion, because it will be keeping the surfaces warm. However gaps in the insulation will form "cold bridges" allowing cold spots to form where condensation will occur. Ventilation is essential and should change the air in the boat at least 1-2 times per hour. Burning gas or oil creates vast amounts of water, not to mention the steam created in cooking, so when cooking you need as much ventilation as possible. Windows are the main problem, as even double glazed ones are very poor insulators and will quickly stream with condensation in cold weather if there is not enough ventilation. So if there is condensation on your windows, open them, no matter how cold it is, 'cos if it's condensing here, you can bet it's condensing on the steel behind panels. Some might say there should be a vapour barrier behind the panels to stop this, but I maintain it's impossible to have a perfect vapour barrier, so VENTILATE, VENTILATE,VENTILATE!

Apologies if this is too far off topic.

Edited spelling!

Edited March 3, 2007 by Big Steve

Phil Speight · March 3, 2007

The "two sides of the story" lobby are being totally ignored in their efforts to defuse the situation and thus obtain an amicable solution to this problem so maybe this statement of FACT will help those who have conclusively made their minds up either way.
Our boat has been built from the ground up by Maesbury, not a sub-contracted shell. It is a built to a high specification including a hydraulic bowthruster and yet cost a lot less than the figure given for the problem boat. We have experienced none of the problems mentioned in this and other forums/blogs. BUT we were aware at an early stage that the insulation was so thermally efficient that with the doors and windows shut the condensation soon literally dripped of surfaces within the boat. As experienced boaters we provide through ventilation and the problem was minimised had we not have done this our woodwork would definately be showing signs of advanced mildew, the insulation would be damp and water would be dripping on our state of the art mattress which cost £500 . We have now obtained a dehumidifier which has negated the problem completely.

Oh dear - I honestly wish I`d kept out of ths - but I didn`t` and its too late now . I have at no point suggested that Pirate is a"bad man" as has been suggested and I do sympathise with him. As for my stream kicking thisoff - no it didn`t - it was bubbling away quite nicely already.I have tried to be open handed and fair throughout.

I offer here three scenarios .

1) Put simply because it says it all - Pirate has been savagely mistreated and I , far less importantly have been shown in a bad light. This is based entirely on the facts we all have available.

2) Don`t get mad - but here is a FABRICATED scenario based on sad past experience massaged to fit the current situation. A boatbuilder makes a real hash of a job. The customer gives him enough rope to hang himself , recording the failures as the job progresses. He accepts the boat even though his own photographs prove that there were glaring faults including paintwork inadequacies that did not appear only after the boat was taken away. Two weeks later he goes for the throat looking for a major payment. The boat is cheaply fixed and he has a bargain. This is so unlikely as to be barely credible at all specially in the face of Pirate`s most recent posts ,but it IS a potential "other side" to the story and it is not without precedent. It is NOT an accusation and should not be taken as such.

3) This make far more sense.A succession of mistakes, disappointments , mis communications and misunderstandings lead to a difficult situation. It gets very much out of hand and fuels itself into a very major crisis.Tempers are irretrievably lost

and so is all hope of a satisfactory outcome.The boat is by no means satisfactory in some areas- that is very apparent and is completely undeniable but things have got way out of hand . Quite understandably.

Of these three the last seems the most likely to me by a considerable distance. I repeat - the second one can be virtually discounted , it is absolutely no more than a demonstration that things are always open to interpretation( or misinterpretation if you prefer) and it has been suggested that there could not possibly be two sides to this story. This notwithstanding there are some aspects of the first that simply do not fit with what I know of the boat builder . If it`s the simple truth then I have also been more than a little misused , although that is not remotely significant,and I deeply regret fighting to cut him a bit of slack - but I`ve dealt with him for a number of years and he also does not strike me as a "bad man"and I find it difficult to square his apparent attitude to the complaints.

From the photographs there can be NO conclusion other than that Pirate has a valid complaint.It seems to me though that unpalatable as he may find it he should send the boat back for rectification . It doesnt actually matter if it takes only two weeks or two months as long as the work is done and I would expect , though I could well be way wrong,a court to insist that the builder has the opportunity. When it`s done the same surveyor could inspect again.If this is an acceptance of liability then it would seem reasonable that items such as the mattress should be replaced.

If this carefully considered post is offensive I`m sorry. I had no intention of making it so and I have no interest and no wish to involve myself in Pirate`s business. However I have chosen , possibly misguidedly or possibly not , to involve myself in the boatbuilder`s .

I may also have inadvertantly stuck some repeats of other contributor`s posts up earlier. Sorry - as I`ve often said , I`m useless with computers.

Pax

Phil

A thought. There are two surveys - theoretically they should be absolutely conclusive one way or the other. If the boatbuilder also had the opportunity to commission one ( I said that with some trepidation - but it seems a sensible and balanced approach) then surely there would be more than enough evidence to force a result - one way or another it would surely leave no room for argument .

I`ll stick to paint issues for a while now I think.................

Edited March 3, 2007 by Phil Speight

carlt · March 3, 2007

How come buying a new boat is the only time when 'full refund as the product is not fit for purpose' never applies?

If you buy anything else that is faulty you can take it back and insist on refund or replacement. As soon as you allow the vendor the chance to repair then they can insist on attempting subsequent repairs ad infinitum.

The amount is irrelevant, £10 or £100000, if the goods are not fit for purpose, a refund should be given.

Boat builders seem to think they are above this law and, as I've said in another thread, when I was a boat fitter I was snagging boats that had been handed over more than a year before, and I was working for a 'highly reputable' builder.

If a (hypothetical) boat is sub standard, and not 'fit for purpose' then the (hypothetical) builder should refund the money, try to rectify his mistakes and sell on the boat to cut his losses. It shouldn't be anything to do with the buyer, even if he is a difficult customer.

Lesd · March 3, 2007

Carl, I think that is exactly Pirate's position and I too agree with you.

Supermalc · March 3, 2007

Phil - may I ask why you have been shown in a bad light. I don't think I've read that anywhere. Most likely missed it though, as I'm not the most observant

Secondly, even IF??? that was true, surely the builder deserves to lose. If he has built a substandard boat in the past, why repeat it. If it was a budget boat, fair enough, but not to build bespoke boats with faults like these. And if the faults were so glaringly obvious, and some obviously were when the boat was collected, and accepted, WHY did the builder allow a boat to leave in this condition. Just remember, after waiting for 6 month later than planned, most people would be only too ready to accept a few faults.

If the condensation problem is down to diesel stove, cooking etc. and therefore lack of ventilation, the other problems could possibly be resolved in 3 weeks. BUT if they are due to gaps in the insulation, which surely require an almost total refit, can this be done competently in this time? Also where are the owners to live while this work is carried out.

This has got absolutely nothing to do with either person, but purely for my own curiosity. You never know, but circumstances change and I might require this information some day.

Phil Speight · March 3, 2007

Phil - may I ask why you have been shown in a bad light. I don't think I've read that anywhere. Most likely missed it though, as I'm not the most observant

Secondly, even IF??? that was true, surely the builder deserves to lose. If he has built a substandard boat in the past, why repeat it. If it was a budget boat, fair enough, but not to build bespoke boats with faults like these. And if the faults were so glaringly obvious, and some obviously were when the boat was collected, and accepted, WHY did the builder allow a boat to leave in this condition. Just remember, after waiting for 6 month later than planned, most people would be only too ready to accept a few faults.

If the condensation problem is down to diesel stove, cooking etc. and therefore lack of ventilation, the other problems could possibly be resolved in 3 weeks. BUT if they are due to gaps in the insulation, which surely require an almost total refit, can this be done competently in this time? Also where are the owners to live while this work is carried out.

This has got absolutely nothing to do with either person, but purely for my own curiosity. You never know, but circumstances change and I might require this information some day.

Basically I feel that I`ve gone out on a limb - and in a situation where it`s perfectly possible that I could be seen to be wronging a man already much wronged and , even worse, I may well be doing so even though it has never been my intention. I just don`t understand why , if it`s as clear cut as it certainly appears , he didn`t stop the build and walk away with the help of the consumer protection laws long before the boat was ready. In the circumstances as he reports them that`s what I would have done.Whatever , I have at no point tried to suggest that the boat is up to scratch as it stands and yet I feel that people are interpreting my posts otherwise. If it really IS as clear cut as it looks - I`ve been a right pillock ( but at least I`m not an anonymous pilllock ) and I very much regret it.I don`t know - I really don`t - but I`ve known the builder a while and I feel that his evident initial disinterest is out of character.

We went to Knapton today to see a complaint (although it was a perfectly amicable one ) about the paint job we did just before Christmas. The paint had come of the deck just the same as Pirate`s. Ok - we didn`t question or quibble but there is a cause. The boat was finished only a day before it had to leave . The enamel on the deck needs , in an ideal world, 4 to 5 weeks to cure and fully develop all it`s qualities. The last coat had one day before the inmminent stoppages meant it had to leave and it wasn`t up to the job. Hands up. It was our paint, applied by our painters and it failed. Guilty - but perhaps understandably so. Among many other reasons it`s almost inevitable that a deck will need a final coat once we`ve all finished walking over it for weeks - even if it`s covered up.

We can quite easily achieve a situation in Crux where the condensation is virtually raining off the study ceiling.It just has to be hot enough in a restricted space. The insulation is not at fault - but in the case of Westwood there are said to be two surveys in existence. If they say unequivecably that there are gaps in the insulation , or that areas aren`t insulated at all - it should be fixed and fixed quickly however onerous a job for the builder and I can`t see why he wouldn`t accept that straight away. The bloke I talk to in the course of business, the boss of the particular yard, would , on the evidence of my dealings with him have taken action immediately to begin putting things right. That`s my problem though . If I`ve been fooled , then I`ve also been made a fool of! I don`t think he would put me in that position for a moment. Hope I`m right.

Hey Ho

Cheers

Phil

Edited March 3, 2007 by Phil Speight

Phil Speight · March 3, 2007

How come buying a new boat is the only time when 'full refund as the product is not fit for purpose' never applies?

If you buy anything else that is faulty you can take it back and insist on refund or replacement. As soon as you allow the vendor the chance to repair then they can insist on attempting subsequent repairs ad infinitum.

The amount is irrelevant, £10 or £100000, if the goods are not fit for purpose, a refund should be given.

Boat builders seem to think they are above this law and, as I've said in another thread, when I was a boat fitter I was snagging boats that had been handed over more than a year before, and I was working for a 'highly reputable' builder.

If a (hypothetical) boat is sub standard, and not 'fit for purpose' then the (hypothetical) builder should refund the money, try to rectify his mistakes and sell on the boat to cut his losses. It shouldn't be anything to do with the buyer, even if he is a difficult customer.

It may seen contrary to my other posts , although it isn`t actually, but in principle I agree with you 100%.

First though it needs to be demonstrable in law that the goods are unfit. I also think ( and I`m not at all sure so don`t hang me for this) that the vendor has to be given one opportunity to put things right . This is not a comment on the specific case that we`re all getting wound up about - it`s simply my understanding of the law and nothing more.

Phil

Edited March 3, 2007 by Phil Speight

carlt · March 3, 2007

I just don`t understand why , if it`s as clear cut as it certainly appears , he didn`t stop the build and walk away with the help of the consumer protection laws long before the boat was ready. In the circumstances as he reports them that`s what I would have done.

There are many instances of where you find yourself chucking good money after bad (see, it's common enough to have it's own phrase). Luckily I've never been in that situation to the tune of 100k, but I have persisted in letting someone keep trying to fix a vehicle that was obviously beyond his capabilities, and ended up with a repair bill higher than the value of the car.

I'm sure if anyone is watching their life savings disappearing into a project that they haven't the expertise to monitor effectively, they must have an element of trust in the person they're paying. That trust is eroded slowly, not instantly, and it is often too late to say 'Stop! I want my money back', especially when there are stories circling about boatyards going under and the customers ending up with no money, and no boat at all. You just have to hope it will turn out alright.

March 3, 2007

Hindsight s a wonderful thing Phil. Sometimes we find ourselves in a situation, and have to think on our feet, often not making the correct decision. I won,t bore you with the details, but it happened to me once with the only expensive car I ever purchased. I was hung out to dry by a main dealer of the brand, and had all the evidence to prove that they were crooks. Did the manufacturer take the franchise off them when the facts were reported to them? No, they were promoted to a 5 star dealer a couple of months after. Sorry but these days if somebody tells me it is raining, I go out to check.

Phil Speight · March 3, 2007

There are many instances of where you find yourself chucking good money after bad (see, it's common enough to have it's own phrase). Luckily I've never been in that situation to the tune of 100k, but I have persisted in letting someone keep trying to fix a vehicle that was obviously beyond his capabilities, and ended up with a repair bill higher than the value of the car.

I'm sure if anyone is watching their life savings disappearing into a project that they haven't the expertise to monitor effectively, they must have an element of trust in the person they're paying. That trust is eroded slowly, not instantly, and it is often too late to say 'Stop! I want my money back', especially when there are stories circling about boatyards going under and the customers ending up with no money, and no boat at all. You just have to hope it will turn out alright.

Again , but emphatically within the context of everything I`ve already said, I agree with you completely.

This computer is in my office a good distance from our boatyard which is where I live. I`m going home now where a glass of malt ( with a splash of water) will perhaps make me feel better about all this. I`ve said elsewhere in the past hour that I hope I`ve not unintentionally wronged a man who has suffered more than enough already. My other hope remains though that should a situation like this crop up again we will try to keep as balanced a view as possible . Two family`s homes could be at stake here . The possibility of doubt , however remote,is why we don`t have a death penalty . The two parties at the heart of the dispute should bite the bullet and resolve this between them if it`s still possible for them to do so.

Yo Gary , I know you`re there somewhere. Give us a job - me wits are clearly deserting me - do you need a rather old tea boy who can paint a bit?

Cheers to all concerned , I`m off home

Phil

Edited March 3, 2007 by Phil Speight

Gary Peacock · March 3, 2007

Again , but emphatically within the context of everything I`ve already said, I agree with you completely.
This computer is in my office a good distance from our boatyard which is where I live. I`m going home now where a glass of malt ( with a splash of water) will perhaps make me feel better about all this. I`ve said elsewhere in the past hour that I hope I`ve not unintentionally wronged a man who has suffered more than enough already. My other hope remains though that should a situation like this crop up again we will try to keep as balanced a view as possible . Two family`s homes could be at stake here . The possibility of doubt , however remote,is why we don`t have a death penalty . The two parties at the heart of the dispute should bite the bullet and resolve this between them if it`s still possible for them to do so.

Yo Gary , I know you`re there somewhere. Give us a job - me wits are clearly deserting me - do you need a rather old tea boy who can paint a bit?

Cheers to all concerned , I`m off home

Phil

Sorry Phil,

We just set one on he's a retired HMR&C Tax man which comes in handy besides the tea and painting! (We might need you to teach him how to paint though!)

Hopefully they can get this sorted out between them.

Gary

gary4lw · March 3, 2007

Phil amongst your cans of paint if you see one marked (worms) DONT OPEN IT

wrigglefingers · March 4, 2007

Phil amongst your cans of paint if you see one marked (worms) DONT OPEN IT

I dunno, I think that Phil was trying to take a more balanced view of the matter. It is easy for all of us to get caught up in the unfairness of a situation and not see the effect of our actions. There is more than one family involved in this and, in fairness, the builder did have a good reputation before this. Unfortunately, when we talk about our difficulties in a public place it becomes much harder to resolve the problems, because we all take part in the debate and somebody ends up with the prospect of losing face. We have heard one side only, and whilst the photographs speak for themselves, perhaps Phil's third scenario is right. I agree that we should be able to reject a substandard product but this was not a simple transaction because there were so many psychological factors bound up in it. Hindsight is wonderful but specifically not available to us when we make decisions!

Jill

PS can we close this debate now so that I'm not tempted to post again ........ (Shep looking longingly at the tin marked 'worms'!)

Edited March 4, 2007 by wrigglefingers

Phil Speight · March 4, 2007

Phil amongst your cans of paint if you see one marked (worms) DONT OPEN IT

You may well be right - and I may well have been wrong all along. Trouble is I`ve lived and worked on and around boats for a very long time and I can`t switch off my memories.From here on most of what I say will be of a general nature.

Narrow boats are not houses - treat them as such and you`ll have problems. I`ve already explained , as a service provider, how the paint on the deck could have failed so quickly and , as a long term boat dweller, how we are able to create a situation on our boat where water is dripping of the ceiling and down the walls. Someone has highlighted rusty "brass" screws.OK. a screw is usually going through a tight hole in a relatively thin sheet of steel. However much paint you get into the hole you will scrape it off again when you tighten the screw. It is then possible for rust to form and appear to be the screw itself that is going rusty. So the person responsible has gone from being unlucky to being a villain in one move - because someone seeing a picture of the said screw will naturally assume that he has only PRETENDED to fit brass ones - thus saving about a fiver overall incidentally . I`m saying this because I hope to show how disputes can escalate. It`s disputes I`m discussing , not one particular boat.

It`s for this reason that , although I am extremely lucky in my staff, I still to this day stress the importance of attention to detail . We all have off days caused by ill-health, time and financial pressure , and sometimes personal problems . I know I have let at least two customers down in the past when my wits have been scrambled by things going on in my life. If you already have a major problem with a job for the above reasons you should really make good and sure that there aren`t others built in that are trivial on their own but major irritants once you are called to address the fault that first caused the complaint.

I foolishly perhaps got involved in this because I saw a boatbuilder I know and get on with , about whom I have never before heard any complaint being tried by what was starting to look like a kangaroo court.At no point did I say he was innocent or that he was the world`s best. However I couldn`t be sure just how much in the wrong he was because I wasn`t present throughout the build , I didn`t hear any conversations during or after it and I wasn`t there to witness the builders response to the initial complaint. So I couldn`t be sure , and I thought , just maybe , no-one else could be either unless they were one of the two parties actually involved.

As to the much stressed hundred grand - you should get something close to perfection for that , unless you`ve spent too much on fancy technology and not enough on fundamentals . The trouble is we`ve stripped boats that cost more, a lot more, that have been fundamentally worse than Westwood - although I don`t offer this as any sort of justification. Yes , I do know a lot about boats , and I too have photographs, but I don`t don`t name the builders here because a) it would be unprofessional , it could harm my business and , most important c) all the reasons I`ve presented throughout this thread. Someone has said that they used to work for top boat builders and was unhappy about the quality of the work . He doesn`t name them as a warning to any potential customers in the group - probably for the same reasons as me. There are those in our industry who treat their customers very cynically - we all know and regret it - but pictures alone cannot demonstrate such a charge any more than they can turn a brass screw into a rusty mild steel one.

I have learnt a lesson here. Keep out of discussions like this . Sadly , for the same reasons that I publish my real name despite the need to keep the canal world as sweet as fallouts, prejudices and even jealousy allows, I may find myself ignoring the lesson in future at some point.

Cheers

Phil

By the way- the smile is meant to a letter "b" . If this has also turned into a smile- okay - have a nice day y`all.

Edited March 4, 2007 by Phil Speight

Supermalc · March 4, 2007

Do you know what grieves me so much about this, and other such problems. Lack of common sense AGAIN.

It really would be simple for someone (like yourself Phil) with experience, but someone without knowing one, or the other parties......to just go along and look for yourself. And then explain to either one just what the problem is.

If it is shoddy workmanship on a boat of this standard, and I had produced it, or the people I employed, I would be thoroughly ashamed. But then, that's why I'm not, and have never been in business.

You hear about it all the time, with houses, cars you name it, and as far as I'm concerned it's just another reason never to buy anything new, or spend long periods of my life working to try to atain such.

I like nice things, just the same as the next.......but I recently had a chap bragging about his new Merc that he had just bought. He was being bigheaded, and I just happened to be in the small group he was showing it to. Just as he was about to leave I said to him......it'll still look the same as the rest when burnt out in a pileup on the M1.

tosher · March 4, 2007

An outsiders view on all this -- I have been seriously looking to buy a new or nearly new boat for 6 months now and have at last found one that becomes mine next week hopefully. During that time I have tried to get as much info as possible about narrow boats, particularly info from "the horses mouth" so to speak and have found this forum to be invaluable in that regard. It is very important to people like me to read such threads as this one to counterbalance all the advertising claims from builders in general who all claim to build the best boats. I hope such threads as this are allowed to continue and I hope this one is resolved as quickly as possible. The only down side to such threads is that it has made me scared stiff to buy a boat.

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