Tesla Powerwall Battery

[Mac of Cygnet]

This is the main front-page headline in The Times today, with a big article inside about the man behind it.

[DHutch]

Personally I think it sounds more promising for a on-grid lived-on boat than it does for a house.

 

 

Daniel

[BudgetBus]

Musk is a real life Tony Stark. The new battery factory going up is massive. If he wants tech, he has it invented.

[ditchcrawler]

My last set of wet lead/acid batteries lasted 10 years...

I know 100s that havent

[Arthur Brown]

One useful feature of Li-Ion batteries is that they have internal controllers for each cell. These controllers stop the charging when they are full and also stop the discharging before the batteries are empty. I have seen some solar panels that were (IIRC) 400vDC so that high voltage batteries could be easily charged, and the downleads cell to battery would lose less power by heating.

 

HOWEVER I still suspect that a fair stack of fork lift cells would offer performance and or price advantages, but maybe take up more floor space.

[George94]

The cost is a fraction of that of the Li-Ion batteries that you can buy for use in cars. It is still higher than any form of lead-acid battery, including the expensive spiral AGMs. However, it might almost justify the premium on the grounds of longevity - if it really does last as long as claimed.

 

No doubt the price will come down significantly. Lithium, once considered scarce, is being discovered in vast quantities.

[John Williamson 1955]

The full specification is here, about 3 screens down if you scroll:-

 

http://www.teslamotors.com/powerwall

 

7kWh or 10 kWh capacity, which isn't too bad, if you've got a space big enough to fit it, and capable of supplying 2kW continuous and 3.3kW peak at 350 - 450 volts DC. You also need an inverter to use it with AC equipment, at extra cost. So, it'll run either the kettle or the washing machine, and hope nobody turns on the straightening tongs or the hairdryer at the same time. Either that or you'd need to spend a fortune on an intelligent inverter that can do load sharing with the grid, similar to the ones used for solar PV panels, which for domestic kit, mostly work at the same voltages. This would be in addition to the one you've already fitted to the solar PV on your roof.

[George94]

Multi-billionaire and all around genius, Elon Musk, has discovered a way to power houses in the same way that people have powered boats for years. Except for using a lithium battery, what's different?

[Dave Clinton]

Multi-billionaire and all around genius, Elon Musk, has discovered a way to power houses in the same way that people have powered boats for years. Except for using a lithium battery, what's different?

That he's inspired people?

[Arnot]

Just as a matter of interest, if you are (interested) that is...

 

Have a search for Vanadium Redox Flow Battery. Now this is the future!

 

I guess what Elon Musk has done with the Powerwall battery isn't all that radical, especially if you are a boat owner or an "off gridder". But, and it's a massive BUT, he has my absolute admiration and respect for not only making it happen but doing it without a lot of government market support and at what is quite a reasonable price for the technology and quality.

 

I don't notice the corporate world queuing up to introduce new technology to the general benefit of the human race. Unless they can get a commercial stranglehold on it or keep to the ephemeral benefit products, they are noticeable by their absence.

 

Rantette over.... :-)

 

Arnot

[George94]

Just as a matter of interest, if you are (interested) that is...

 

Have a search for Vanadium Redox Flow Battery. Now this is the future!

 

I guess what Elon Musk has done with the Powerwall battery isn't all that radical, especially if you are a boat owner or an "off gridder". But, and it's a massive BUT, he has my absolute admiration and respect for not only making it happen but doing it without a lot of government market support and at what is quite a reasonable price for the technology and quality.

 

I don't notice the corporate world queuing up to introduce new technology to the general benefit of the human race. Unless they can get a commercial stranglehold on it or keep to the ephemeral benefit products, they are noticeable by their absence.

 

Rantette over.... :-)

 

Arnot

 

I think Musk will be able to establish a stranglehold by virtue of lower unit costs - thanks to his enormous investment. He is planning to make LOTS of money.

 

One thing that suprises me is the fact that there is almost no effort in this country to install heat pumps in domestic housing. Definitely a noticeable absence.

 

Maybe Musk has plans to change that situation too.

[Arnot]

Hmm let me think about this...

 

Being held in a stanglehold by a company who offers a better product at a lower price by investing.... Outrageous!

 

Run by an individual who can take a decision without having to get it approved by a committee... Anarchy!

 

And he makes money... Horrendous!

 

Elon Musk once said of what he does that the way to make a small fortune out of it.... was to start with a large one. It would be ill mannered not to assist.

 

Of course there is the state approved approach which is to motivate a bunch of spivs by throwing money at them and preventing any opposition. All fully regulated by a bunch of men from the Ministry.

 

 

Arnot

Edited May 6, 2015 by Arnot

[Jambo]

Just as a matter of interest, if you are (interested) that is...

 

Have a search for Vanadium Redox Flow Battery. Now this is the future!

 

I guess what Elon Musk has done with the Powerwall battery isn't all that radical, especially if you are a boat owner or an "off gridder". But, and it's a massive BUT, he has my absolute admiration and respect for not only making it happen but doing it without a lot of government market support and at what is quite a reasonable price for the technology and quality.

 

I don't notice the corporate world queuing up to introduce new technology to the general benefit of the human race. Unless they can get a commercial stranglehold on it or keep to the ephemeral benefit products, they are noticeable by their absence.

 

Rantette over.... :-)

 

Arnot

 

Flow batteries will be good for industrial and grid applications but I think they're a bit bulky for domestic and EV applications aren't they? It's been a while since I paid much attention to them and that could have changed.

 

Tesla did take a loan from the US government but they paid it off early:

 

http://money.cnn.com/2013/05/22/autos/tesla-loan-repayment/

[Jambo]

 

I think Musk will be able to establish a stranglehold by virtue of lower unit costs - thanks to his enormous investment. He is planning to make LOTS of money.

 

One thing that suprises me is the fact that there is almost no effort in this country to install heat pumps in domestic housing. Definitely a noticeable absence.

 

Maybe Musk has plans to change that situation too.

 

And good on him! One interesting thing about Tesla though is that they're releasing their patents on their EVs and the Powerwall. I have no doubt he's going to make a lot of money and I like the way he's going about that.

 

Regarding heat pumps, the government wants to fit something like 7 million in UK homes and businesses by 2030 but it's never going to happen. Unlike electric vehicles, heat pumps have to draw power at peak times. Our electricity supplies and grid simply won't be able to take it.

[George94]

 

And good on him! One interesting thing about Tesla though is that they're releasing their patents on their EVs and the Powerwall. I have no doubt he's going to make a lot of money and I like the way he's going about that.

 

Regarding heat pumps, the government wants to fit something like 7 million in UK homes and businesses by 2030 but it's never going to happen. Unlike electric vehicles, heat pumps have to draw power at peak times. Our electricity supplies and grid simply won't be able to take it.

 

They won't have to take it. Musky will have seen to that.

 

I am not against the man at all, indeed we need more like him, but it's not true to say he does it without government support. Nevada are giving him $1.25 billion.

[Dave Clinton]

 

And good on him! One interesting thing about Tesla though is that they're releasing their patents on their EVs and the Powerwall. I have no doubt he's going to make a lot of money and I like the way he's going about that.

 

Regarding heat pumps, the government wants to fit something like 7 million in UK homes and businesses by 2030 but it's never going to happen. Unlike electric vehicles, heat pumps have to draw power at peak times. Our electricity supplies and grid simply won't be able to take it.

So how come they are practically the default heating in new builds in Finland?

[John Williamson 1955]

Economically, for the short to medium term, heat pumps make sense where the alternative is electric heating or where you need cooling in Summer as well as heating in Winter.

 

Given the likely relative costs of energy sources in the UK in the near future, they don't make sense where mains gas is available.

 

As for heat pumps needing to draw electrical power at peak times, if we replaced all standard electrical heating with heat pumps, either ground source or air source, we would reduce the electrical peak heating load to about 20% of what it is now, burning about half the gas that the same amount of gas heating would need. Given that almost all our electricity is fossil fuel generated, this would actually be one of the few proposed green measures that would actually reduce total CO2 emissions in the UK.

 

Where they would really pay off is in France, with 80% nuclear power, which as of now is actually much cheaper per kilowatt hour than mains gas at off peak times. They've got so much nuclear electrical output available, they almost have to give it away at night.

[Jambo]

 

They won't have to take it. Musky will have seen to that.

 

I am not against the man at all, indeed we need more like him, but it's not true to say he does it without government support. Nevada are giving him $1.25 billion.

 

Those Powerwalls are not really aimed at storing electricity for space heating. The 10kWh one would run out of steam after an hour or two of heat pump demand.

So how come they are practically the default heating in new builds in Finland?

 

They are popular in Scandinavia but they have a lot of hydro and nuke power at their fingertips and the whole of Scandinavia has less than half the UK's population.

[Jambo]

Economically, for the short to medium term, heat pumps make sense where the alternative is electric heating or where you need cooling in Summer as well as heating in Winter.

 

Given the likely relative costs of energy sources in the UK in the near future, they don't make sense where mains gas is available.

 

As for heat pumps needing to draw electrical power at peak times, if we replaced all standard electrical heating with heat pumps, either ground source or air source, we would reduce the electrical peak heating load to about 20% of what it is now, burning about half the gas that the same amount of gas heating would need. Given that almost all our electricity is fossil fuel generated, this would actually be one of the few proposed green measures that would actually reduce total CO2 emissions in the UK.

 

Where they would really pay off is in France, with 80% nuclear power, which as of now is actually much cheaper per kilowatt hour than mains gas at off peak times. They've got so much nuclear electrical output available, they almost have to give it away at night.

 

The economic viability for electric heating is far from clear cut. You have to rip out the electric storage heaters and replace them with a wet central heating system (ideally underfloor) and hot water cylinder and then a heat pump is going to cost you in the region of £10k on top of that.

 

"if we replaced all standard electrical heating with heat pumps, either ground source or air source, we would reduce the electrical peak heating load to about 20% of what it is now"

 

I'd like to see a reference for that because I don't see how that can be correct. The vast majority of residential electric space heating in the UK is provided by storage heaters which draw most of their energy overnight. There is a reasonable amount of topping up during the day by householders because storage heaters generally perform abysmally but it's a small proportion of the total electric space heat demand.

Edited May 6, 2015 by Jambo

[John Williamson 1955]

 

The economic viability for electric heating is far from clear cut. You have to rip out the electric storage heaters and replace them with a wet central heating system (ideally underfloor) and hot water cylinder and then a heat pump is going to cost you in the region of £10k on top of that.

 

"if we replaced all standard electrical heating with heat pumps, either ground source or air source, we would reduce the electrical peak heating load to about 20% of what it is now"

 

I'd like to see a reference for that because I don't see how that can be correct. The vast majority of residential electric space heating in the UK is provided by storage heaters which draw most of their energy overnight. There is a reasonable amount of topping up during the day by householders because storage heaters generally perform abysmally but it's a small proportion of the total electric space heat demand.

There are air source heat pumps available that don't require any major building works, just a couple of holes in the walls for the pipes that carry the working fluid and the wiring. You replace the storage heaters with what looks like a standard fan assisted radiator, or just leave the storage radiators in place for when the heat pump fails. They've had one in the office at work for about 15 years now. I worked in an office where they had one fitted about 35 years ago, and the accountant said that it completely paid for itself within a few years.You can even buy a kit that lets you install it as a d-i-y project over a weekend or two.

 

When is the peak for storage heating power consumption? Pretty close to the peak period for my fan heater on the boat and the convectors I had in a flat about 3 homes ago. It runs all night, and is off all day, unless I'm in. Most domestic heat pumps operate at a multiplier of about 5, so for every kilowatt hour of energy they use, they shift 5 kilowatt hours of heat. which is where I got the 20% peak heating power requirement from. You may, however, be surprised at just how much commercial property is currently electrically heated by staff just turning on the wall mounted convector when they arrive, as the space for storage heaters is too expensive, and it's not worth fitting a wet system is the lease is only for a few months at a time, even ignoring the annual testing costs, then there are the 3 kilowatt fan heaters (Air curtains, which are supposed to direct almost all the heat inwards. Yeah, right) above most shop doors to entice you in.

[George94]

 

Those Powerwalls are not really aimed at storing electricity for space heating. The 10kWh one would run out of steam after an hour or two of heat pump demand.

 

 

 

Heat pumps are not electrical space heaters. They use a relatively small amount of electricity to extract heat (or "cool" in summer) from the surrounding air or water.

 

If gas is so cheap, let it be used to fuel power stations which in turn would provide the energy for heat pumps.

[Trousers1000]

At a recent meeting at the MCA that I attended,mother topic of allowing these types of batteries for use onboard merchant vessels and also as an alternative energy for lifeboats ( as they obviously have a finite amount of fuel) coupled with solar panels.

 

The current state of play is that not enough is known on the safety, and especially how to deal with the batteries onboard a vessel in the event of such occurrences as a fire, collision damage, excess heat, etc.

I meant.....the "topic"......... Sorry for the "mother" typo

[Jambo]

 

Heat pumps are not electrical space heaters. They use a relatively small amount of electricity to extract heat (or "cool" in summer) from the surrounding air or water.

 

If gas is so cheap, let it be used to fuel power stations which in turn would provide the energy for heat pumps.

Yes I know that. They can achieve coefficients of performance of a bit over 3 (i.e. 3 units of heat for every unit of electricity put in) but typically achieve much less than that and on cold days will effectively act as electric space heaters with a CoP of about 1.

[Jambo]

There are air source heat pumps available that don't require any major building works, just a couple of holes in the walls for the pipes that carry the working fluid and the wiring. You replace the storage heaters with what looks like a standard fan assisted radiator, or just leave the storage radiators in place for when the heat pump fails. They've had one in the office at work for about 15 years now. I worked in an office where they had one fitted about 35 years ago, and the accountant said that it completely paid for itself within a few years.You can even buy a kit that lets you install it as a d-i-y project over a weekend or two.

 

When is the peak for storage heating power consumption? Pretty close to the peak period for my fan heater on the boat and the convectors I had in a flat about 3 homes ago. It runs all night, and is off all day, unless I'm in. Most domestic heat pumps operate at a multiplier of about 5, so for every kilowatt hour of energy they use, they shift 5 kilowatt hours of heat. which is where I got the 20% peak heating power requirement from. You may, however, be surprised at just how much commercial property is currently electrically heated by staff just turning on the wall mounted convector when they arrive, as the space for storage heaters is too expensive, and it's not worth fitting a wet system is the lease is only for a few months at a time, even ignoring the annual testing costs, then there are the 3 kilowatt fan heaters (Air curtains, which are supposed to direct almost all the heat inwards. Yeah, right) above most shop doors to entice you in.

 

How do you transport the heat around the home without some form of central heating system? They can be used with warm air systems as well as wet central heating systems but fitting warm air systems is also not cheap.

 

Peak power demand from all consumption is in the evening and peak space heating demand tends to match this - people come home, sit around in the evening watching the telly when they need a nice warm temperature and then tend to dial back their heating when they go to bed. And sadly you just don't get a CoP of 5 out of an installed heat pump. Maybe in bench tests under ideal conditions but not in the real world and on a cold winter's day an air source heat pump is pretty much working like an electric radiator. Our electricity system has to be built for those cold winter's day.

[MtB]

Yes I know that. They can achieve coefficients of performance of a bit over 3 (i.e. 3 units of heat for every unit of electricity put in) but typically achieve much less than that and on cold days will effectively act as electric space heaters with a CoP of about 1.

 

This was my understanding too from the heat pump training course I attended 20 years ago.

 

That level of performance relies, however, on them being properly/regularly maintained. If the refrigerant levels are not maintained correctly the CoP tends towards 1:1 under all conditions.

 

In commercial installations this tends not to be an issue as firms maintain heat pumps properly but it's a Big Problem in domestic installations. Householders are reluctant to shell out several hundred quid a year to get theirs serviced and then they can get stupidly expensive to run. Hence the lack of domestic take-up in the UK. Annual servicing costs are rarely pointed out by peddlars of domestic heat pumps!

Edited May 7, 2015 by Mike the Boilerman