Ellis Heatmaster

[Rewilding]

Had to find a pub to warm my fingers...

 

I have an Ellis Heatmaster on my nb and has worked fine since I fired up for winter, until now.

 

I had the heating on for a an hour or so the other evening and noticed it had started to chill off despite the boiler still burning. So for an hour the radiators had been working as normal, but then suddenly just stopped. As if blocked, which I suppose may be the problem.

 

I wanted to drain the system, but have two questions. Firstly, is this the best thing to do? is it sludge or something in the system that is most likely? and secondly, how do I refill it? there is a small open topped box above the boiler with three pipes. The first is connected to the fresh water and on the left of the box, and has a valve on it which when opened pumps water into this little box. The second, at the bottom of the box, is connected to the top of the boiler and top of calorifier, and its behaviour suggests the whole box is like an expansion box (?). The third acts as an overflow, and the water drains into the engine bilge.

 

I just would like to understand this system a bit more, and most importantly fix the problem that means I can heat water but not the radiators...

 

Any help much appreciated, thanks!

 

Andrew

[Phil Ambrose]

I have an Ellis too,yes the box is an expansion box. Do you have a pump and is it working also what size are your pipes? There is a very comprehensive maintenance post that can be found on the search button, give it a go.

Phil

[Rewilding]

I've seen some of the posts by David about Ellis maintenance, as well as the mention that they had no new for a pump. Mine doesn't, and has been working fine without. Not sure of pipe size, but again, these haven't changed so why should it suddenly stop circulating?

 

Should the expansion bubble up? Because that has been happening...should it be full or empty? How can it go from running hot day after day to refusing to circulate?

[Graham Davis]

Duplication reported.

[Alf Roberts]

sounds like it needs topping up

 

...or refilling.

 

either way, not enough water

[Tony Brooks]

Had to find a pub to warm my fingers...

 

I have an Ellis Heatmaster on my nb and has worked fine since I fired up for winter, until now.

 

The first is connected to the fresh water and on the left of the box, and has a valve on it which when opened pumps water into this little box. The second, at the bottom of the box, is connected to the top of the boiler and top of calorifier, and its behaviour suggests the whole box is like an expansion box (?). The third acts as an overflow, and the water drains into the engine bilge.

 

I just would like to understand this system a bit more, and most importantly fix the problem that means I can heat water but not the radiators...

 

Any help much appreciated, thanks!

 

Andrew

 

 

Are you absolutely sure about that? It may be connected to the upper connection of the calorifier COIL but if it was the "top" connection that woudl be the domestic hot water take off pipe and the domestic water pump would would be pumping water out fo the box all the time.

 

1. Make sure that the inlet ballcock is not stuck up.

 

There is not much in the Ellis apart from a big box and a burner assembly. so I would suggest that you also look through the little window in the front of the boiler to make sure the pilot burner flame is not distorted or to small. Also check all the main burner flames are large and even (when the main burner is running).

 

The pilot light has a thermal probe that tells the control box the pilot light is burning correctly so the main burner gas WILL ignite if supplied. If this fails or if the pilot flame is too small or distorted the probe will not get hot enough so the main burner will not be supplied with gas. The usual reason for such problems is rust falling onto the burner or dust/spiders blocking the pilot burner or its air holes.

 

I should not encourage you to tamper with gas systems but if this is not a livaboard or hire boat I seem to remember from my Ellis that you can undo the gas pipe, undo a "ring" of screws around the plate that the controls are mounted on and the lift the whole burner and control assembly out of the boiler so you can clean the burners and their air holes. If you are a livaboard or are not 100% confident that you know how to ensure a 100% gas tight joint pay a Gassafe/CORGI professional to check the boiler.

[David Schweizer]

Had to find a pub to warm my fingers...

 

I have an Ellis Heatmaster on my nb and has worked fine since I fired up for winter, until now.

 

I had the heating on for a an hour or so the other evening and noticed it had started to chill off despite the boiler still burning. So for an hour the radiators had been working as normal, but then suddenly just stopped. As if blocked, which I suppose may be the problem.

 

I wanted to drain the system, but have two questions. Firstly, is this the best thing to do? is it sludge or something in the system that is most likely? and secondly, how do I refill it? there is a small open topped box above the boiler with three pipes. The first is connected to the fresh water and on the left of the box, and has a valve on it which when opened pumps water into this little box. The second, at the bottom of the box, is connected to the top of the boiler and top of calorifier, and its behaviour suggests the whole box is like an expansion box (?). The third acts as an overflow, and the water drains into the engine bilge.

 

I just would like to understand this system a bit more, and most importantly fix the problem that means I can heat water but not the radiators...

 

Any help much appreciated, thanks!

 

Andrew

 

Andrew, the Elliis Heatmaster is virtuially bomb proof and you state that the boiler is fired up, If you have conducted the flame test as suggested by Tony and all is OK, the problem would appear to be in either the primary or secondary heating pipework. Before suggesting any remedies we need a bit more information.

 

Is your calorifier single coil or twin coil? Single coil have four water connections two for heating feed and return (usually 22mm or 28mm) and two for domestic water flow and return (usually 15mm) . Twin coil calorifiers have six connections, two domestic water pipes and four larger heating pipes.

 

Does the calorifier heat up the domestic water even if the radiators remain cold?

 

Can your water normally be heated from the engine as well as the boiler, and if so, does the calorifier and/or radiators heat up with the engine running?

 

Do you have any additional header tanks in the system? ( some installations have a pressurised one at the far end of the system).

 

Is there any water in the header/expansion tank above the boiler?

 

Sorry about all the questions, but the answere may help us to eliminate some causes , and hopefully enable us to identify the possible causes for the heating failing.

 

Finally do you have a copy of the Ellis heatmaster installation and operation instrictions, they are not designed to identify causes for failure, but thay do help you to understand the boiler and associated heating suystems. If you want a copy I can email one to you as a set of attachments.

Edited December 14, 2014 by David Schweizer

[Rewilding]

Nothing wrong with the flame at all, no - and it heats the domestic hot water up as well as ever still.

 

It's twin coil, and the heating pipes are all larger than the domestic pipes - though I am not on board now to measure.

 

Engine does give me hot water, though I have never found it to do anything noticeable with the radiator temperature.

 

No knowledge of an additional header tank - just the tank above the boiler. This tank does have water in it when it all bubbles up and fills with water... there is a valve to fill up this tank with fresh water.

 

I don't have a copy of the instructions but have previously read through it.

Tony, sorry I meant the top of the coil rather than the domestic take off.

 

If your comment about the inlet ballcock is still relevant - what and where is that?

[Tony Brooks]

MY Ellis header tank had a mini domestic type ball cock to keep the header tank full and when you said valve I assumed (wrongly) this is what you had as well. I now assume yours is a simple tap that you operate as and when required.

 

Personally I feel it is a bit odd to put what may well be a heating circuit air vent into the header tank unless it enters above the water level. I would prefer it to be directed overboard so there is no danger of water sitting in the pipe making an airlock more likely. If that pipe does enter the header tank below the wtaer level I would suggests that you bleed all the radiators while keeping the tank full - once the problem is solved you can worry about antifreeze content.

 

Have you actually inspected both flames or are you just assuming that because the water is heated they must be OK. I suspect that when you press the red button to start the boiler if you hold it in long enough the main burner will ignite and the that burner will heat the flame failure probe but when the boiler thermostat cuts the main burner out the probe will cool so the main burner will be shut off. This is conjecture on my part but I would want to be sure this is not what is happening.

 

One more thing I forgot to mention about removing the control & burner assembly. You also need to pull the "cork" out of the hole halfway up the boiler so you cane VERY CAREFULLY free the thin thermostat tube.

 

I think the boiler thermostat uses an alcohol bellows to control the main burner gas flow and if that tube was damaged or for some other reason the alcohol was lost I think the boiler would never shut down so the water would boil. However there may be a back up system in the control box.

 

One more think to be absolutely sure about. The size and shape of the pilot light flame is VITAL in keeping the flame failure probe hot. simply looking at it now when it may be faulty is not a reliable diagnostic test. You need to compare it with a known working Ellis. AS an example that may not be directly applicable to the Ellis. The Alde 29xx boilers have an asymmetrical pilot flame and when the burner gets compromise it still burns but does not heat the flame failure probe sufficiently. On the basis of the reported symptoms I still suspect its the pilot light.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Tony Brooks

[Rewilding]

Not on board right now so can't check immediately, but I know the pilot burns with 3, possibly 4 jets with a decent size blue flame. When the thermostat cuts the burner, the pilot light still remains, and the system fires up again if I use some of the hot water/turn thermostat up. This all seems to work as I would expect it to, and indeed as I have always known it to.

 

The header/expansion tank (?) is above the calorifier, right up at the cabin top. Or do you mean where does the pipe connect to the tank? In which case yes, it's at the bottom.

[aread2]

Is there a heating pump? Is it running?

[David Schweizer]

OK. you indicate that your calorifier is twin coil, which would suggest that the problem lies within the secondary coil circuit or the radiators, but exactly where will require some investigation. My initial thought would be in the radiator valves which is where the smallest restrictions will be, alternatively there could be an airlock. but first a couple more questions.

 

Do you have more than one radiator, and if so do any of them get even slightly warm?

 

Have you felt the pipework leading to the first radiator to establish whether that gets warm ?

 

Do you have a single or twin pipe heating circuit? single pipe feeds heated water into the top of the radiator and feeds the cooled water back into the same pipe, twin pipe has a flow pipe and a separate return pipe.

 

Sorry about the additional questions but we need to look at tis problem systematicly.

 

One last point. may I reinforce Tony's advice in his penultimate paragraph. If you do decide to remove the burner unit do not damage the thin thermocouple pipe in any way. Unlike most domestic boilers, this is soldered into the control unit and cannot be replaced, damage it and you would have to try and source another complete control unit which are like hen's teeth to find, Foxton Boat Services did have a few in stock some years ago, but I do not know if they have any now.

[Rewilding]

Two radiators with twin pipe circuit. Hot water enters top right and the return is bottom left.

 

The pipe work is heating about two thirds of the way to the first radiator, say about 3 or so meters from the boiler. So no, nothing is getting to any of the radiators to warm them evn slightly. (They have always been quite bad though, obviously not this bad, but the bottom never heated much on either).

 

aread2, there is no pump in the system as it works by natural convection. Or at least, did.

Edited December 14, 2014 by Rewilding

[David Schweizer]

Not on board right now so can't check immediately, but I know the pilot burns with 3, possibly 4 jets with a decent size blue flame. When the thermostat cuts the burner, the pilot light still remains, and the system fires up again if I use some of the hot water/turn thermostat up. This all seems to work as I would expect it to, and indeed as I have always known it to. The header/expansion tank (?) is above the calorifier, right up at the cabin top. Or do you mean where does the pipe connect to the tank? In which case yes, it's at the bottom.

 

Are you sure there are only three or four jets alight, there shold be a wole bank of jets alight running back about eight or ten inches, if all you have is three or four, it would suggest that the burner is clogged with rust. or combustion debris and needs cleaning.

Edited December 14, 2014 by David Schweizer

[David Schweizer]

Is there a heating pump? Is it running?

Somewhere (maybe in the duplicate post) Alan indicated that his system did not have a circuolation pump.,

 

Two radiators with twin pipe circuit. Hot water enters top right and the return is bottom left.

 

The pipe work is heating about two thirds of the way to the first radiator, say about 3 or so meters from the boiler. So no, nothing is getting to any of the radiators to warm them evn slightly. (They have always been quite bad though, obviously not this bad, but the bottom never heated much on either).

 

aread2, there is no pump in the system as it works by natural convection. Or at least, did.

 

I am fairly confident in saying that you either have a blockage or an air lock. Lets deal with the airlock possibility first, With the boiler fired up and the calorifier hot, try opening the bleed valve on the radiator closest to the boiler, it will not hiss like those on a house system as the water is not pumped but fed by convection, and it may take some while for any air to be expelled, If that works proceed to the next radiator etc. I have found that giving the radiators a few hard slaps will sometimes dislodge an air lock.

 

If that doesnt work it is a slow process of undoing the radiator valves and checking them for blockages, but be prepared to collect a lot of water in the process, you will also need to ensure that the valve supplying water to the header tank is closed, or if there is no valve make sure the water pump is turned off.

Edited December 14, 2014 by David Schweizer

[DHutch]

Duplication reported.

Merged

[Rewilding]

Sorry, the 3 or four jets I reffered to were the pilot light, there is of course a large bank running down behind this that fire up fine.

 

I already tried bleeding, but only dribbles of water come out so assumed there was no air in there. I will do that again and check the other valves too.

 

If I drain a fair amount of water from the system - how do I refill it? and How do I know how much to fill it, there is no presure gaguge like a domestic system?

[David Schweizer]

Sorry, the 3 or four jets I reffered to were the pilot light, there is of course a large bank running down behind this that fire up fine.

 

I already tried bleeding, but only dribbles of water come out so assumed there was no air in there. I will do that again and check the other valves too.

 

If I drain a fair amount of water from the system - how do I refill it? and How do I know how much to fill it, there is no presure gaguge like a domestic system?

 

If water is dribbling out, it suggests that there is not an airlock in that particular radiator, but flow may be so poor that very little is getting through. I would assume that the system will refill from the header tank, which should have a ball valve to prevent over filling. Alternatively there couild be a direct filling facility from the domestic water supply, a feature which we have on our boat.

[Rewilding]

I am still confused as to whether what I have is a header tank or expansion tank. It's open top and only holds about 3 cups of tea... How am I supposed to fill the system from that? And is the second an automatic system? So it will automatically pull more water in if it's low?

 

I am returning to the boat now but have no internet, so thank you so much for all your help. I may be back later/tomorrow if things still aren't working out.

[Tony Brooks]

Has anyone recently changed or added antifreeze to the heating system. If so drain it all out, mix it up and refill. Hot antifreeze is denser than cold water so will often not circulate in a gravity system.

 

The tank you talk about is typical for many Ellis systems and it is both a header tank and expansion tank. That is why it should never be filled to the brim when cold.

 

Now you have made it clear that the Ellis is heating the domestic water properly but not the radiators it more or less rules out any burner or control issues.

 

My Ellis plumbing had a two way valve so it would heat just the calorifier in the summer but the radiators as well in the winter. Do you have oen and if so is it set to hot water only.

 

Far from all domestic heating systems have a pressure gauge and in any case it is only telling you about the pressure and maybe the amount of water in the expansion vessel. Typical header tank in the loft systems do not have such a gauge.

 

The system will refill from the header tank but if there is no ball cock then it is probably a two man job. One bleeding the air and one controlling the topping up.

[Rewilding]

Thank you for all the replys on this. I drained the radiators and took the piping apart where the hot water was stopping as if blocked. No obvious blockages however, but once all back together and re-filled it worked fine again!

 

Until the gas ran out.

 

Oh well.

 

Thank you all!

[David Schweizer]

Thank you for all the replys on this. I drained the radiators and took the piping apart where the hot water was stopping as if blocked. No obvious blockages however, but once all back together and re-filled it worked fine again!

 

Until the gas ran out.

 

Oh well.

 

Thank you all!

 

Glad to hear you have managed to clear whatever was stopping the heating from working, if yopu haven't found anytghing causing a blockage, it sounds as if it might have been an air lock.

 

Shame about the gas, but that shouldn't cause any problems once you have a new ctylinder connected. but it mught taks a couple of minutes holding the button down on the boiler before any gas gets through, amd the pilot can be igbited.

[Alf Roberts]

just curious; are these still available?

[David Schweizer]

just curious; are these still available?

 

No they haven't been available for more than 20 years. I know that when we bought our boat in1996 they were already no longer being sold. I remember speaking Mr Ellis (Snr) around that time, and he told me that the Heatmaster EEC registration had run out. and that renewing it would cost more than the estimated profit they would make over the period of registraion, so they stopped producing them. A pity really because they are far more robust than the only altrernative available, Something borne out by the fact that hundreds (if not thousands) still exist as original instalations in boats, and still working more than thirty later.

[rupertbear]

I have an Ellis Heatmaster on my nb and has worked fine since I fired up for winter, until now.

 

 

I'm pleased to hear that you have now sorted your problem.

 

I'd be grateful if you could give me some idea of the gas consumption of your Heatmaster?

 

I inherited one with the boat but it had been disconnected. I am considering having it checked and reconnected as an alternative to the back boiler but would like to get some idea of the running costs.

 

Thanks