Mastervolt 2000/100 combi problem

[blackrose]

A neighbour of mine has just had an AC system installed on his boat along with a Mastervolt 2000/100 combi.

 

The combi is way over-specified for his needs but he got it for a good price.

 

I advised him to leave it on "charge only" while on shore power just in case the mains trips at the bollard and his inverter drains the batteries without him knowing. On that setting he still has power from the mains, however, he tells me that occasionally the charger trips and switches itself off for a couple of minutes before switching itself back on again and running through its charge cycle.

 

That doesn't sound right to me. He says his batteries are topped up. Does anyone have any idea why it's happening?

Edited September 6, 2014 by blackrose

[bottle]

Total guess, his load is greater than the shoreline can supply the Mastervolt senses this and turns the charger off.

 

A bit like 'Power assist' except it doesn't because it is set to charger only

 

Perhaps he could turn it to inverter whilst he is onboard and see what happens, only turning it to charger only when not onboard.

[by'eck]

A neighbour of mine has just had an AC system installed on his boat along with a Mastervolt 2000/100 combi.

 

The combi is way over-specified for his needs but he got it for a good price.

 

I advised him to leave it on "charge only" while on shore power just in case the mains trips at the bollard and his inverter drains the batteries without him knowing. On that setting he still has power from the mains, however, he tells me that occasionally the charger trips and switches itself off for a couple of minutes before switching itself back on again and running through its charge cycle.

 

That doesn't sound right to me. He says his batteries are topped up. Does anyone have any idea why it's happening?

If AC to Victron was being supplied by a generator, I would suggest waveform may be an issue, unlikely from shore power grid supply though. It could be intermittent mains over-voltage although it would have to be very high. Sterling Combi's are more likely to suffer from this, rejecting incoming mains when only a couple of volts over the national limit of 253 volts. Wonder if its just the charger tripping or is the pass-through interrupted as well?

 

Its a long shot but I believe there is a dirty AC setting (usually for generator use) which makes it less sensitive to such and may be worth a try.

[blackrose]

Total guess, his load is greater than the shoreline can supply the Mastervolt senses this and turns the charger off.

 

A bit like 'Power assist' except it doesn't because it is set to charger only

 

Perhaps he could turn it to inverter whilst he is onboard and see what happens, only turning it to charger only when not onboard.

 

I'm sure it's not that. He has a 16amp supply and is hardly using anything.

If AC to Victron was being supplied by a generator, I would suggest waveform may be an issue, unlikely from shore power grid supply though. It could be intermittent mains over-voltage although it would have to be very high. Sterling Combi's are more likely to suffer from this, rejecting incoming mains when only a couple of volts over the national limit of 253 volts. Wonder if its just the charger tripping or is the pass-through interrupted as well?

 

Its a long shot but I believe there is a dirty AC setting (usually for generator use) which makes it less sensitive to such and may be worth a try.

 

I'll have a look at his user manual and see if there are any other settings. I'll also check whether his mains in interrupted at the same time. I'm away until Tuesday and he works shifts so I might not see him until the weekend.

 

I don't have a combi, but my Sterling charger seems to cope with the mains supply fine. It seems like the more expensive and complex the equipment gets, the more problems it potentially suffers from.

Edited September 6, 2014 by blackrose

[Guest]

Total guess, his load is greater than the shoreline can supply the Mastervolt senses this and turns the charger off.

 

A bit like 'Power assist' except it doesn't because it is set to charger only

 

Perhaps he could turn it to inverter whilst he is onboard and see what happens, only turning it to charger only when not onboard.

Our Mastervolt did indeed do this when on shore power until I turned down how much the charger could've draw using the dip switches.

 

However what it didn't do was switch itself back on, I had to do this myself. It sounds like something else to me. However if it is it's easy to turn the amps down the charger draws as I say using the dip switches under the bottom panel.

 

The required settings are in the manual if he's got one, if not you can get a PDF copy on the mastervolt web site.

[blackrose]

Our Mastervolt did indeed do this when on shore power until I turned down how much the charger could've draw using the dip switches.

 

However what it didn't do was switch itself back on, I had to do this myself. It sounds like something else to me. However if it is it's easy to turn the amps down the charger draws as I say using the dip switches under the bottom panel.

 

The required settings are in the manual if he's got one, if not you can get a PDF copy on the mastervolt web site.

 

Thanks I'll have a look.

[nicknorman]

Our Mastervolt 12/2500/100 doesn't do this. We leave it on charge only when plugged into the marina for the reasons you say. There is a "dirty power" setting on our one but surely it shouldn't be needed on shore power. If it is new, I would send it back. If it is secondhand it may be faulty (and why it was sold).

 

Yes turning down the current is a good idea but really it shouldn't be the cause of this problem unless the mains supply is severely compromised

[by'eck]

Our Mastervolt 12/2500/100 doesn't do this. We leave it on charge only when plugged into the marina for the reasons you say. There is a "dirty power" setting on our one but surely it shouldn't be needed on shore power. If it is new, I would send it back. If it is secondhand it may be faulty (and why it was sold).

 

Yes turning down the current is a good idea but really it shouldn't be the cause of this problem unless the mains supply is severely compromised

As I understood the OP, the issue wasn't with the shore power supply tripping, but the Victron itself, before magically re-setting itself. That's why I didn't suggest turning down the charger power.

[nicknorman]

As I understood the OP, the issue wasn't with the shore power supply tripping, but the Victron itself, before magically re-setting itself. That's why I didn't suggest turning down the charger power.

I agree and that is what I thought I had said. I think turning down the max shore power is a good idea anyway - you don't need 100A charger when you are permanently on shore power and turning it down to a reasonable max value perhaps reduces the severity of a battery runaway. That's why I supported the idea, but I don't think it will fix the problem.

[bottle]

Pedant ON>>

 

As I understood the OP, the issue wasn't with the shore power supply tripping, but the Victron Mastervolt itself, before magically re-setting itself. That's why I didn't suggest turning down the charger power.

 

Pedant OFF

 

[by'eck]

Apologies if there was a misunderstanding Nick, but I doubt turning down the power of say a 100 amp charger is going to have much impact when a single cell in a battery bank fails short circuit. The battery concerned will become a 10 volt one so will cause some extra current draw from a charger probably holding it in absorb mode, but there will be substantial and greatest current from the other healthy batteries in the bank.

 

From memory it was only 15 amps or so being supplied from the charger on the couple of occasions its happened to me over the years. Note that in both cases the failure happened during a re-charge cycle with me in attendance and not whilst being left long term (several months in a year) on float.

 

ETA: Sorry bottle - as Nick reminds us Mastervolt is the best so fewest problems which creates a mindset to Victron issues

Edited September 6, 2014 by by'eck

[blackrose]

Could it possibly be the way it has been wired into the system? I assume the bloke did it correctly as he is employed by a hire boat company in the midlands as their electrician. It's not my boat so I'm not going to get involved in it any more than asking a few questions on the forum for the owner, but I just wondered if it was more likely to be the installation or the unit that's at fault?

I agree and that is what I thought I had said. I think turning down the max shore power is a good idea anyway - you don't need 100A charger when you are permanently on shore power and turning it down to a reasonable max value perhaps reduces the severity of a battery runaway. That's why I supported the idea, but I don't think it will fix the problem.

 

So as I don't have a combi myself, could you enlighten me please? It sounds like turning down the max shore power will also turn down the max output from the charger?

 

I can understand why one would want to turn down the charger while on shore power (25amps max would be quite sufficient), but why would one want to turn down the shore power itself when it's only a 16 amp supply? Have I misunderstood or are we talking cross-purposes?

Edited September 6, 2014 by blackrose

[nicknorman]

Apologies if there was a misunderstanding Nick, but I doubt turning down the power of say a 100 amp charger is going to have much impact when a single cell in a battery bank fails short circuit. The battery concerned will become a 10 volt one so will cause some extra current draw from a charger probably holding it in absorb mode, but there will be substantial and greatest current from the other healthy batteries in the bank.From memory it was only 15 amps or so being supplied from the charger on the couple of occasions its happened to me over the years. Note that in both cases the failure happened during a re-charge cycle with me in attendance and not whilst being left long term (several months in a year) on float.ETA: Sorry bottle - as Nick reminds us Mastervolt is the best so fewest problems which creates a mindset to Victron issues

It's an interesting point, I'm not sure to what extent the other batteries would pass large currents into a battery with a duff cell, due to the hysteresis in voltage between a battery on charge vs one on discharge. When I equalise my batteries I get just a few amps at 15.5v, for the whole bank. Take out 1 cell (1/6th) of the duff battery and I get 12.9v - more than the fully charged remaining bank. So with no charger on, the (say) 12.75v of a fully charged bank is only going to put in a few amps - or probably just an amp into one 110AH battery with a duff cell. Of course that will continue for a long time and cause the remaining cells to slowly but persistently gas, but will it get the duff battery hot, or just slowly deplete the good batteries? But add a charger in bulk at 14.8v and now we have an effective voltage to the remaining 5 cells of 6/5ths ie 17.75v equivalent. That is going to cause some major gassing and heating I suspect.

 

Anyway, I suspect the battery chemistry in such a failure is complex, but at the very least, turning the max current down gives me a cosy feeling that it can't decide to pump 100A x 14v (1.4kw) into my failing bank. There certainly seems no reason to have a high power charger whilst permanently on shore power.

[Nickhlx]

For these concerns I have been successfully keeping my bow thruster pair and my starter battery charged by a small 4 amp charger, so the max it will be able to deliver is 4 amps should a fault develop....

 

I also limit the draw by the Victron 12/3000/16 from the shore supply to about 2 - 3 amps as I am sure 500W to 750W is more than enough to trickle charge what are normally fully charged Trojans...

 

Nick

[Ssscrudddy]

My inverter/charger combo developed a problem where it kept losing shore power. It turns out I had a faulty RCD, enough voltage to make the yellow test button work & trip it, but not enough power getting through to use.

[phill]

A neighbour of mine has just had an AC system installed on his boat along with a Mastervolt 2000/100 combi.

 

The combi is way over-specified for his needs but he got it for a good price.

 

I advised him to leave it on "charge only" while on shore power just in case the mains trips at the bollard and his inverter drains the batteries without him knowing. On that setting he still has power from the mains, however, he tells me that occasionally the charger trips and switches itself off for a couple of minutes before switching itself back on again and running through its charge cycle.

 

That doesn't sound right to me. He says his batteries are topped up. Does anyone have any idea why it's happening?

 

According to p13 of the manual there are three conditions that cause protective shutdown. In all these cases the unit will restart automatically.

 

That's where I would start. RTFM

[blackrose]

I've just seen the guy again this evening. I didn't realise but when his inverter cuts out the mains on his boat cuts out too! This can't be anything to do with the combi settings or the batteries can it? It's got to be a faulty unit.

According to p13 of the manual there are three conditions that cause protective shutdown. In all these cases the unit will restart automatically.

That's where I would start. RTFM

 

p13 of the manual I'm looking at is about Power Sharing.

 

I'm just thumbing through his manual. This Mastervolt combi is far too complicated for its own good. I can't even get my head around some of these features!

 

I'm so glad I just have a separate inverter and charger... They do one job each and that's it!

Edited September 11, 2014 by blackrose

[phill]

I can't find the manual I was looking at but in this one it's page 15 and 16

 

http://images.mastervolt.nl/files/ManualMassCombi070717EN.pdf

[nicknorman]

I've just seen the guy again this evening. I didn't realise but when his inverter cuts out the mains on his boat cuts out too! This can't be anything to do with the combi settings or the batteries can it? It's got to be a faulty unit.

 

 

p13 of the manual I'm looking at is about Power Sharing.

 

I'm just thumbing through his manual. This Mastervolt combi is far too complicated for its own good. I can't even get my head around some of these features!

 

I'm so glad I just have a separate inverter and charger... They do one job each and that's it!

The unit has two outputs, one direct from the input and one switched between the incoming mains and the inverter. Services are normally connected to the latter. This means that if you switch the Combi off (or it switches itself off) the mains throughput from shore to boat is interrupted. Although you think this is "too complicated" it makes for seamless switching between shore power and inverter power without any manual intervention - when it is working properly! (ours has worked flawlessly for the last 3 1/2 years touch wood). Presuming the incoming shore power is reasonable it does seem likely that the unit is faulty.

[by'eck]

I've just seen the guy again this evening. I didn't realise but when his inverter cuts out the mains on his boat cuts out too! This can't be anything to do with the combi settings or the batteries can it? It's got to be a faulty unit.

 

p13 of the manual I'm looking at is about Power Sharing.

 

I'm just thumbing through his manual. This Mastervolt combi is far too complicated for its own good. I can't even get my head around some of these features!

 

I'm so glad I just have a separate inverter and charger... They do one job each and that's it!

 

Yes on end of page 15 into 16 there are three conditions that cause shutdown with auto re-set:

 

Inverter overload/short circuit - after 5 failed auto resets locks off permanently - reset via main switch

Unit overheat - auto reset when temperature falls within limits

Under and over AC input voltage - limits 207 - 265 AC volts in normal 100% mode

 

Faults in any of three conditions above are displayed by LED's - see page 35/36 - hopefully this will provide the answers.

 

There is also a push re-settable thermal transfer fuse (below left of AC input connection) that protects the transfer relay from overload. Not also that the AC output from this relay is to the Short Break AC output only. There is a second AC Power output which is fed directly from the AC input, although monitored for AC load when making decisions for Power Support/Sharing.

[blackrose]

 

Yes on end of page 15 into 16 there are three conditions that cause shutdown with auto re-set:

 

Inverter overload/short circuit - after 5 failed auto resets locks off permanently - reset via main switch

Unit overheat - auto reset when temperature falls within limits

Under and over AC input voltage - limits 207 - 265 AC volts in normal 100% mode

 

Faults in any of three conditions above are displayed by LED's - see page 35/36 - hopefully this will provide the answers.

 

There is also a push re-settable thermal transfer fuse (below left of AC input connection) that protects the transfer relay from overload. Not also that the AC output from this relay is to the Short Break AC output only. There is a second AC Power output which is fed directly from the AC input, although monitored for AC load when making decisions for Power Support/Sharing.

Thanks. I can't see the problem being inverter overload or overheat as he's not using the inverter, and there's no sound from the fan prior to shutdown. I think the fan is working during the charge cycle. I doubt the mains voltage is at fault as I've never had a problem with the charger on my boat, but then the mastervolt does seem like very complex and sensitive equipment, not what I would want on a boat but there you go.

[blackrose]

The unit has two outputs, one direct from the input and one switched between the incoming mains and the inverter. Services are normally connected to the latter. This means that if you switch the Combi off (or it switches itself off) the mains throughput from shore to boat is interrupted. Although you think this is "too complicated" it makes for seamless switching between shore power and inverter power without any manual intervention - when it is working properly! (ours has worked flawlessly for the last 3 1/2 years touch wood). Presuming the incoming shore power is reasonable it does seem likely that the unit is faulty.

Yes I can see how a correctly functioning combi would do seamless switching between mains and inverter, although having lived on boats for over 12 years I've never actually needed that particular facility myself. Personally I prefer to manually switch systems so that I'm always in control, even if that means a short break in power supply. It isn't really that much of an inconvenience.

 

The other advantage of simpler separate systems is that if one goes wrong you still have the other, and if faulty neither will affect the shore power supply to the boat. So if I were starting again I'd still fit a separate inverter and charger rather than relying on an all singing & dancing unit in one box. Just a personal preference.

Edited September 12, 2014 by blackrose

[by'eck]

Thanks. I can't see the problem being inverter overload or overheat as he's not using the inverter, and there's no sound from the fan prior to shutdown. I think the fan is working during the charge cycle. I doubt the mains voltage is at fault as I've never had a problem with the charger on my boat, but then the mastervolt does seem like very complex and sensitive equipment, not what I would want on a boat but there you go.

 

Another suggestion would be checking DIP switch settings - see page 31-33 of manual. Power Sharing and Power Assist can be controlled from these although also from a remote panel. Note that charger will effectively be disabled if the total AC drain on the outputs equals or exceeds the shore current setting in the Power Sharing mode, although this function can be turned off by setting DIP switch B - SW3 to ON.

[blackrose]

Thanks I'll go over to his boat now and have a look. But I think we must be looking at different manuals. p 31-33 of the manual I have is about the connections and is part of the installation instructions.

 

Edit:

 

Ok, after much messing about I've set dip switch A6 on to disable power sharing and I've set dip switch B2 on to reduce the battery charger current (>10 amp mains input setting).

 

Are there any other switches available to set up the combi or is it just these 2 sets of dip switches?

 

Also I've just noticed some other instructions to use the dip switches to configure the combi as a master or slave. What's that all about then? It's sounds like gay stuff!

 

When I fist saw his combi I was jealous, but I've got to say after messing about with it for the best part of an hour I'm not impressed. It's far too complicated. The user manual wasn't written for an average user - you almost need a degree in electronics to set the bloody thing up and they couldn't have made those dip switches any more difficult to operate. They're so small I could hardly see which one was which. Give me my bog standard Sterling charger and inverter any day of the week...

 

It seems like madness to pay £1400 for a top drawer combi and then have all this grief because it's not doing what it should be doing. It tripped out while I was over there. Why on earth doesn't it have a setting so that the shore power mains could bypass the combi? That would be sensible but it seems like Mastervolt have neglected simple, useful settings that would get you out of trouble and instead concentrated on all the complicated stuff. He only really needs shore power and a battery charger not all these different settings. Also it must be wrecking his batteries because it never reaches float before it trips out again and goes through it's full charge cycle. It's as I said in my last post: the problem with one box that's supposed to do everything is that when it stops working it doesn't do anything.

Edited September 12, 2014 by blackrose

[by'eck]

You certainly have a different manual to mine - Mass Combi 230 volt 12/2000-100 dated May 2007 - is this correct model?

 

DIP switch banks A & B only although there may be other user tweaks via panels or software interface.

 

DIP switch A SW 6 & 7 control battery type in my manual

 

The Master/Slave thing is if you want to run two synchronised in parallel to get twice the power.

 

In a manner of speaking it does have an AC output that bypasses the transfer switch and so inverter support. Its called the AC output (POWER) although I believe load on it is monitored for power sharing/support purposes.

 

These are other relevant settings from my manual:

DIP switch B

SW3 ON - power sharing disabled (previously mentioned)

SW4 ON - enables Power Support, OFF - disables (transfer switch open in this mode so no connection between assisting inverter and grid)

SW5 ON - enables Generator/Mains Support, OFF - disables (transfer switch closed in this mode so incoming grid/genny assisted by inverter)

SW6 ON - normal AC input frequency window, OFF - extended frequency window to cater for surging generators

SW7 selects remote control of charger/inverter or inverter only