Thinsulate insulation

[miles beyond]

Anyone had sufficient experience with this stuff - it is being used increasingly in some pretty expensive boats? But if you take a piece of it and put it in water, it is like a sponge. Or are my fears unfounded?

[DHutch]

Not used it myself, but have a look though these lot.

 

www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...search=Thinsulate

 

 

Daniel

[Supermalc]

Wish I could afford it for mine.

[miles beyond]

Not used it myself, but have a look though these lot.

 

www.canalworld.net/forums/index.php...search=Thinsulate

Daniel

 

Thanks Daniel. I've skimmed through a lot of that and while Thinsulate is mentioned, perhaps it is too new to evaluate thoroughly yet. It is certainly very easy to use, and it has impressive thermal and acoustic insulation properties. However I know it has its detractors and wondered if anyone else had firm evidence of any downsides to this material. The negative claim is that it will absorb condensation and that will create both rust problems and a loss of insulation effectiveness. And I have been told that it was used on some commercial aircraft and had to be ripped out for that reason. But whether that is true or urban myth I have no idea. But it's a worry!

Edited January 17, 2007 by miles beyond

[bottle]

Hi

 

I am not endorsing it in anyway (my builder does not like it but will fit it [ not quite he says that 3m will have to install it] if you demand it)

 

I am going with 'sprayfoam'

 

Thinsulate Acoustic Insulation is hydrophobic - it won't absorb water.

 

The above quote is from a site trying to sell it but you say it is like a sponge.??????????????

[Gary Peacock]

Forget it!

 

We had a very early introduction to it and I did some research into it and 3M's reasons for pushing it!

 

Marketing exercise springs to mind if I remember correctly.

[Gibbo]

Forget it!

 

We had a very early introduction to it and I did some research into it and 3M's reasons for pushing it!

 

Marketing exercise springs to mind if I remember correctly.

 

Can you expand on that?

 

I'm *really* curious!

 

I have some thinsulate gloves that work really ....... oh never mind, that's probably not quite the same stuff

 

Gibbo

[Supermalc]

When I had to do something about mine, as you literally couldn't hear yourself talk, we were talking about what there was on a friends boat, and he showed me. I was going to use it, until I discovered it was 80quid a roll.

 

In the end I struggled for a couple of days, and put the leftovers from my loft insulation, covered with foil. I then covered with plastic netting, on the suggestion of someone else.

 

 

I does work, and I've also now added more insulation to the outside, plus covering with an old carpet.

 

However the thinsulate was only as third as thick, and twice as good.

 

As to absorbing water ????? It's not supposed to, and is foil covered both sides (well on the side you don't stick on.

 

It's not very new either, as when I got some gloves made from it years ago, I discovered it was first invented for the trip to the moon.

[Moley]

Well they used it on Dover (or maybe that was another marketing ploy by 3M). I don't suppose they paid for half of what went into that boat, and guess there was a lot of advertising and product placement.

 

I did google it briefly when I was trying to decide on our insulation materials, but as it's more expensive than sprayfoam I really can't see it catching on.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I like my thinsulate gloves too, but then again, I've never tried sprayfoaming my hands

Edited January 17, 2007 by Moley

[Supermalc]

Thanks Gary...pleased I didn't spend my money now

[blackrose]

The negative claim is that it will absorb condensation and that will create both rust problems and a loss of insulation effectiveness. And I have been told that it was used on some commercial aircraft and had to be ripped out for that reason. But whether that is true or urban myth I have no idea. But it's a worry!

 

If it has the insulation properties described and it's fitted properly, there shouldn't really be any condensation.

 

I think I'd still rather have sprayfoam though.

Edited January 17, 2007 by blackrose

[miles beyond]

I have thinsulate (TI) gloves. They are superb as long as it is dry. If they get wet they are useless. And you can wring them out so they do hold moisture. So that concerns me.

 

Yes, TI is foil protected on both sides, but not at the ends where you have to cut to fit. I did have a small sample which I can't find now, but I remember dropping it in the sink and all I can say is it held a lot of moisture - it was sodden. Perhaps they have improved it, or I am missing the point somehow.

 

The fact is that it is being used increasingly in some top of the price bracket boats - I believe it is the insulation of choice for Reading Marine and I know Kingsground have used it in at least one recent boat.

 

I can't argue against sprayfoam - applied properly it is superb. Not applied properly or too thinly and you will find parts of the linings going black a few years down the line. Beware cheap lined out sailaways unless you see the foam applied beforehand!

 

But I was specifically trying to canvass opinions on TI.

[John Orentas]

I have still yet to see anything superior in performance, price, or convenience to expanded polystyrene.

[elessina]

Anyone had sufficient experience with this stuff - it is being used increasingly in some pretty expensive boats? But if you take a piece of it and put it in water, it is like a sponge. Or are my fears unfounded?

I have no experience of Thinsulate, but I am sure it will be fine for normal use, as will expanded polystyrene and most other forms of insulation.

 

But for liveaboard use Spray foam generally seems to be recognised as the best. Generally you can be sure that wherever sprayfoam is applied, there will be no condensation at all. That does not necessarily mean that a sprayfoamed boat will have no condensation, as this depends on how thoroughly it is applied as there may be parts that the spray foam is not applied to. But at least you know that those parts sprayed will not condensate. This is not true with all insulation because if air can get between the insulation material and the steel, condensation can still form.

 

We have spray foam and live aboard and I am pleased we chose sprayfoam. We get some condensation under the floor boards on the angled chines of our barge where there is no sprayfoam. I have placed some expanded polystyrene on the angle chines, works ok until the outside temperature drops to around zero, then condensation forms between the polystyrene and the steel.

 

A few more comments can be seen on another forum here

Ian

Elessina

 

 

I like my thinsulate gloves too, but then again, I've never tried sprayfoaming my hands

I have (unintentionally), it took me about a week to pick get it all off. Horrific stuff to get on your skin…. I had thin plastic gloves on but they split and the spray foam got underneath… only a quick 5min job with sprayfoam can touching up some underneath areas….. took 2 hours to get 80% off, the rest over the following days!!!. Longest 5min job I ever did!!!

Ian

[ChrisPy]

I have (unintentionally), it took me about a week to pick get it all off. Horrific stuff to get on your skin…. I had thin plastic gloves on but they split and the spray foam got underneath… only a quick 5min job with sprayfoam can touching up some underneath areas….. took 2 hours to get 80% off, the rest over the following days!!!. Longest 5min job I ever did!!!

Ian

which is why it is used (in a different guise) as marine gap filling glue. it's just about indestructable.

[blackrose]

I can't argue against sprayfoam - applied properly it is superb. Not applied properly or too thinly and you will find parts of the linings going black a few years down the line.

 

I found some areas under my bow deck where the sprayfoam had been applied too thinly. However, even where the sprayfoam was only a few mm thick there was no condensation (in winter with warm air in the area). The only areas of condensation were where the foamers had missed completely, like the back of a steel cross member under the deck.

 

I have still yet to see anything superior in performance, price, or convenience to expanded polystyrene.

 

I work on polymer foams and in terms of insulation and other performance factors PU (sprayfoam) beats EPS hands down. Quick summary: http://www.iowacoolers.com/structural_insu..._insulation.asp

 

Of course EPS is cheaper but then most inferior products are.

 

Convenience? It's probably not a good idea to try sprayfoaming your own boat (although I'm sure some people have done it). However it's fairly convenient to have a specialist company do the job.

Edited January 19, 2007 by blackrose

[DHutch]

I dont know what i would do if i where geting a boat build new now, but Emilyanne is sheet EPS thoughout, and i would be very tempted to go along the the lines of "if it aint broke, dont fix it".

- EPU is slightly more firesafe than fireretardent EPS which is i guess a plus point.

- Caurse you could aways goe the half-way-house, and do it with sheet EPU...?

 

 

Daniel

[blackrose]

I dont know what i would do if i where geting a boat build new now, but Emilyanne is sheet EPS thoughout, and i would be very tempted to go along the the lines of "if it aint broke, dont fix it".

- EPU is slightly more firesafe than fireretardent EPS which is i guess a plus point.

- Caurse you could aways goe the half-way-house, and do it with sheet EPU...?

Daniel

 

Yes Daniel, you're right. There's nothing "wrong" with EPS and until the advent of PU foams it was probably the best choice of material for the job. There's plenty of equipment on my boat that's not top of the range, but if it works ok it'll have to do. I certainly wouldn't be ripping out my lining to change the insulation if it is still performing adequately.

 

Expanded polyurethane foam sheet or board is available in the form of Kingspan amongst other brands. I think it's pretty good stuff and often comes foil backed on both sides. The advantage that sprayfoam has over PU board is that it's physically bonded to the steel during foaming. Also with Kingspan you've got to make sure you seal the seams between boards.

Edited January 20, 2007 by blackrose

[DHutch]

Yeah, if your using boards (be it EPS or PU) you do really have to paint the steel to prevent rusting.

- Then what we did on emilyanne put a layer of polyethylene damp proof membrane between the T&G lineout and the battens/insulation.

 

 

Daniel

[blackrose]

- Then what we did on emilyanne put a layer of polyethylene damp proof membrane between the T&G lineout and the battens/insulation.

Daniel

 

Probably a good idea for EPS & PU boards or rockwool.

[aread2]

A vapour barrier is now a requirement in building work to prevent vapour getting through to the dew point. Unless you tape the joints scrupulously with board insulation you'll get condensation on the steel. Spray foam forms it's own vapour barrier.

[miles beyond]

Well I can't disagree with 99.999% of these posts.

 

It seems that Thinsulate (my specific reason for starting this topic - to canvass views on it) has got to go some distance to establish a firm foothold then and right now the jury's out if only through lack of experience with stuff over the longer term.

 

Mind you I can remember people being highly suspicious of spray 12-15 years ago.

 

Perhaps in another 12-15 years it will be very different again - if this global warming malarky produces blisteringly hot summers lasting 9 months a year we'll all be looking for something that keeps the boat as cold as possible!! I jest.

[ChrisPy]

we'll all be looking for something that keeps the boat as cold as possible!! I jest.

spray foam certainly does that.

cold insulation and hot insulation are the same thing.

the coolest place when I was fitting out in the summer was inside the boat. never even broke into a sweat.

Edited January 26, 2007 by chris polley

[miles beyond]

spray foam certainly does that.

cold insulation and hot insulation are the same thing.

the coolest place when I was fitting out in the summer was inside the boat. never even broke into a sweat.

 

I know Chris. The idea just amused me. Like fitting an anti-matter inverse Morso Squirrel for example. Cheers!

[ChrisPy]

I know Chris. The idea just amused me. Like fitting an anti-matter inverse Morso Squirrel for example. Cheers!

I stay at the Sheraton Ankara, in a brand new building. The minibar fridge is installed in a kitchen base unit without any ventilation. It works away, consuming the amps, and heating the cupboard up nicley. At least the inside of the fridge is cooler than the cupboard. It's only about 20C inside the fridge.

Can't you do something similar in reverse with a heat pump and a pair of squirrels?