BW livery

[BenC]

We decided to re paint both boats over the summer! Can anyone please help with the right BW colours. The yellow I currently have is a bit orange. I would appreciate any help.

Thanks Ben

[dave moore]

Hi Ben

 

Craftmaster Azure Blue should do the job nicely, along with mid chrome yellow. I've got to do the lettering on a boat in that livery very soon, I'll ask the coach painter what he's used. Good luck!

 

Dave

[BenC]

Thanks Dave. It would be interesting to know what he used.

Ben

[dave moore]

The yellow used was Symphony Coatings ( formerly Rapid Paint) Golden yellow. Dave

[Laurence Hogg]

Which BW livery are you wanting?, after the DIWE variations, a set livery was produced. But as always there are serious variations to the blue depending on where the boat was docked. The only "defined" livery was for the Southern trading boats out of Bulls Bridge.

The details of the BW sheets are shown below, paint suppliers can now match the BW ref numbers, we used Turners in Hawks Green Cannock (01543 577168), the results were excellent.

 

 

 

These details were supposed to be a general livery for all depots, however only Bulls Bridge followed exactly. Depots such as Bradley used Manders Midnight blue which was locally made and stencilled the lettering in straight lines, Hayhurst at Northwich more or less followed the rules but docks like the one a Stockport adapted the LNER livery to blue and yellow.

[BenC]

Laurance I was looking for exactly what's on your list. The bulls bridge layout/ colours. I believe that was how Banstead was painted in The Bargee? Do you have any RAL numbers for the paint colours?

Thanks

Ben

[archie57]

As regards Bulls Bridge fleet, yellow lines 3 inches ish, bear in mind "Registered at" lettering has to be 2 inches. Also southern shading light green and black, to the right hand side, northern shading is LHS

[Paul H]

I think this document - which was produced in 2007 - should be treated with a certain amount of caution as Archie has already indicated.

The lettering for boat name and number were 4" not 5" and handrails were blue rather than red as standard - red was a boatman's emellishment.

 

Paul

[Laurence Hogg]

Laurance I was looking for exactly what's on your list. The bulls bridge layout/ colours. I believe that was how Banstead was painted in The Bargee? Do you have any RAL numbers for the paint colours?

Thanks

Ben

 

No but Turners will sort it. Ignore these posts referring to the date shown on the print out, that was the year the file was accessed, its from the original spec John Edwards holds in their database. Some posters on here just don't want to believe the truth! That IS the original spec as set out.

 

I think this document - which was produced in 2007 - should be treated with a certain amount of caution as Archie has already indicated.

The lettering for boat name and number were 4" not 5" and handrails were blue rather than red as standard - red was a boatman's emellishment.

 

Paul

 

That was the year it was printed out!! Its from the archived original spec, believe it or not, not the invention of so called "knowledgeable" enthusiasts who go by hearesay.

Edited July 13, 2014 by Laurence Hogg

[Paul H]

But the last paragraph makes it clear that it is not a contemporary document. Indeed it has been produced on a computer rather than a typewriter. I would guess it was produced by John Edwards when BW set up its Heritage Fleet.

 

In any case the sizing of the lettering is wrong as I indicated and I believe all red paint as distinct from red oxide was added by or at the request of the boatman and not part of the original spec.

 

Fortunately we have enough photographic evidence to show how things were actually done.

 

Paul

Edited July 13, 2014 by Paul H

[Laurence Hogg]

But the last paragraph makes it clear that it is not a contemporary document. Indeed it has been produced on a computer rather than a typewriter. I would guess it was produced by John Edwards when BW set up its Heritage Fleet.

 

In any case the sizing of the lettering is wrong as I indicated and I believe all red paint as distinct from red oxide was added by or at the request of the boatman and not part of the original spec.

 

Fortunately we have enough photographic evidence to show how things were actually done.

 

Paul

 

I am sick of these comments. It was copied from original documentation by John Edwards when the "heritage fleet" was being organized. Like its forbear GUCCCo colour layout, things were differed from almost from day one.

Stick with your photographic evidence and ignore original documents I really don't care, I just gave an answer to OP question based on original information, however you see that as next to useless, so be it, why bother to answer at all?

[BenC]

Thank you for all the replies! It wouldn't be the forum without some kind of disagreement!

All answers appreciated. I just want to make sure that our efforts create the best most realistic results. Which boats to you knowledge are the best example of a motor and butty in these colours.

[archie57]

I think that John Edwards original document was in fact a spec. issued to Jones of Brentford when the River boats were built

[archie57]

Also I believe that the "British Waterways" lettering was at one point done by transfer, with its RHS shading, hence the "flat" piece on the arc of the "Waterways" part which can be seen on pictures of lots of different boats - if all that makes sense!

[Paul H]

 

I am sick of these comments. It was copied from original documentation by John Edwards when the "heritage fleet" was being organized. Like its forbear GUCCCo colour layout, things were differed from almost from day one.

Stick with your photographic evidence and ignore original documents I really don't care, I just gave an answer to OP question based on original information, however you see that as next to useless, so be it, why bother to answer at all?

Please don't take it personally Laurence. Myself and other enthusiasts have benefited from your extensive photographic archive and we have agreed about much in the past. However as a historian I am sure you would agree about the importance of primary source material. Without sight of his source, John Edward's document has to be viewed as merely the opinion of a long term enthusiast/BW employee/working boat owner (for John was of course all three.) Some of it appears, at least to me, to be inaccurate.

 

I think that John Edwards original document was in fact a spec. issued to Jones of Brentford when the River boats were built

Seems unlikely as the spec features items such as stands not found on river class boats.

 

 

Also I believe that the "British Waterways" lettering was at one point done by transfer, with its RHS shading, hence the "flat" piece on the arc of the "Waterways" part which can be seen on pictures of lots of different boats - if all that makes sense!

Yes, the transfer (or possibly a stencil) was created on a much tighter arc and shorter length than suited the boats. The transfer was therefore cut between the two words and spread out on the cabinside with the result that it it was not a smooth arc with a flat or even slightly down turned bit in the middle and a big gap was often left between the words.

 

Thank you for all the replies! It wouldn't be the forum without some kind of disagreement!

All answers appreciated. I just want to make sure that our efforts create the best most realistic results. Which boats to you knowledge are the best example of a motor and butty in these colours.

Have you got access to back copies of Waterways Worlds? There were a number of "blue and yellow" articles in the late 80s and 90s or more recently in the magazine Narrow Boat. A number of Waterways pairs were turned out very smartly IIRC Stratford and Bideford were particularly nice.

 

Or as I believe you own Banstead - watch The Bargee!

 

Paul

Edited July 14, 2014 by Paul H

[cheshire~rose]

https://scontent.flhr2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17883822_10154348267732341_6393746650909114381_n.jpg?oh=c85c971b53845e4a475d6986b9a5ef0f&oe=598B31EERather than start a new topic I searched for the information I needed and this thread popped up, however it appears that the links to spec sheets for the fleet from Bulls bridge no longer link to the documents. 

I can appreciate that Lawrence may have felt that his documents were not appreciated having read through the thread and so, as we are hoping to repaint Python's cabin this summer and Python is a Bulls Bridge boat it would be very useful to be able to see the documents you have Lawrence. If you prefer to share them via PM that would be helpful. 

The information provided by others regarding colours is helpful but a RAL number could be even more helpful. 

The reason I ask is that Paintman, a local company producing high quality traditional coach enamel has approached us with a very generous offer to sponsor Python by supplying the paint we need.

This is a link to their website:

https://www.paintman.co.uk/

They do a lot of stuff for classic Land Rovers too which may interest a few people on here. 

I am meeting with the proprietor tomorrow and he asked if I had a RAL numbers and he will visit Python tomorrow with his colour charts but I do not believe the colour that was used on Python at her last repaint was quite right. It appears a couple of shades too light to me and when she has been moored up next to some other venerable old boats with BW livery it looks very light.  I know there are variations and I have heard the stories of the guys in BW yards grabbing whatever paint was to hand and mixing a bit of this and that in until it looked about right but if there is a recognised colour I want to know what it is so we can make sure Python looks right next time she gets an opportunity to moor next to other BW liveried boats. I thought inside of the engine room doors might have been the correct shade but I looked closely at some chips in the paint yesterday expecting to see the 1980's jade green underneath it and instead saw a lighter shade of blue so I am in danger of trying to match something that is completely wrong by trying to find a slither of old paint somewhere on Python. 

Some photos that Tim Lewis has recently dug out illustrate to me just how careful we have to be here this picture from the Cavalcade in the mid to late 80's: 

https://scontent.flhr2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17883822_10154348267732341_6393746650909114381_n.jpg?oh=c85c971b53845e4a475d6986b9a5ef0f&oe=598B31EE

Shows a very pale looking blue, some of which will be because the photo has faded a bit or is possibly a bit over exposed but compared to "Limehouse" the boat being towed it is much lighter. 

This photo shows Python looking like she has a very fresh new frock on 

https://scontent.flhr2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/17861954_10154348267742341_2454148266688565156_n.jpg?oh=d586b76c3eccee33987888156ee8b00f&oe=5994E51A

By comparison to the earlier photo it appears much darker and I suspect that could be the colour inside the engine room doors. I believe this photo to have been taken shortly after her last re-paint while in BW ownership. 

(and yes - this is further proof that those squiggles on the bow were applied by BW and whether they were an official part of the livery or not Python wore them when she was working for BW and Python will continue to wear them!) 

[David Mack]

Your first photo shows the pale blue and white (complete with wavey logo) which BW used from about 1970, and which replaced the dark blue and yellow livery you are seeking to replicate.

[cheshire~rose]

14 minutes ago, David Mack said:

Your first photo shows the pale blue and white (complete with wavey logo) which BW used from about 1970, and which replaced the dark blue and yellow livery you are seeking to replicate.

Thank you David

Do you know an approximation of when the darker blue and yellow started to be used?

[cheshire~rose]

Crikey!

I knew Python's blue was lighter than it should be but I didn't realise by how much:

https://scontent.flhr2-2.fna.fbcdn.net/v/t1.0-9/18119173_1386268141396627_5670921676719465809_n.jpg?oh=d6611c7c79322fcc16ee719b3a4a438d&oe=599484BB