Setting up 240

[imranino]

Hello!

 

When we got our boat 18 months ago, it had a very simple 12v system, and all I've done so far is modernise it slightly - a few more cigar lighter sockets, all LED lights etc. But we still don't have any kind of 240 power setup.

 

We've got by so far with just 12v and that really fits most of our needs - charging phones, laptops and so forth. But the odd luxury here and there (blender, juicer, hoover) would not go amiss.

 

We don't have any immediate plans to get an inverter (£ flow) but probably will someday. So in the immediate future the only times we'll be using 240 power is when we have landline hookup (very rare as we are CCers) or when we run the gennie. I only really envisage fitting one double socket in the kitchen area, but might also put one by the bed and in the living area (thinking about future users if we ever decide to sell).

 

With all the above, what do I need to do in order to have this? I've had a look through the BSS website but couldn't quite understand what it all meant! Can I simply put a hookup socket on the outer cabin, run it to a socket in the engine room into which I'd plug in the battery charger, and a line running into the main cabin to a socket? Does there need to be a fusebox of some sort?

 

Excuse my ignorance, as you can tell from above please assume no prior knowledge!

 

Many thanks!

[leeco]

You need a small RCD or RCBO protected fuse box.

 

Edited May 22, 2014 by leeco

[Alan de Enfield]

Our 'old boat' had just what you described and passed the BSS several times - however - it failed the last test and I had to have an RCD (as per the post above) fitted (About £20 off ebay)

 

I dont know as 'liveaboards' if it has to be installed to BS standards (and by approved electricians - the same as you have to do with the gas-work )

 

It could be worth checking with the BSS folks.

 

Whilst you are doing it - put in more sockets than you think you will need (at least a double in each of the following - bedroom, kitchen, lounge) its easier to do it once than have to go back and retro-fit in the future.

 

Leave a length of 'extra' cable to ensure you have enough to 'play with' when installing an Inverter.

[leeco]

Our 'old boat' had just what you described and passed the BSS several times - however - it failed the last test and I had to have an RCD (as per the post above) fitted (About £20 off ebay)

 

I dont know as 'liveaboards' if it has to be installed to BS standards (and by approved electricians - the same as you have to do with the gas-work )

 

It could be worth checking with the BSS folks.

 

Whilst you are doing it - put in more sockets than you think you will need (at least a double in each of the following - bedroom, kitchen, lounge) its easier to do it once than have to go back and retro-fit in the future.

 

Leave a length of 'extra' cable to ensure you have enough to 'play with' when installing an Inverter.

Unlike electrics in houses that need to be inspected tested and certified to meet the BS7671 wiring regulations on boats it doesn't.

 

A BSS inspector will just have a look at the installation so that it meets the BSS standard.

 

Look here OP it has some good tips.

 

http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/boat-examination/non-private-boats/part-3-electrical-installations/

Edited May 22, 2014 by leeco

[Alan de Enfield]

Unlike electrics in houses that need to be inspected tested and certified to meet the BS7671 wiring regulations on boats it doesn't.

 

A BSS inspector will just have a look at the installation so that it meets the BSS standard.

 

Look here OP it has some good tips.

 

http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/boat-examination/non-private-boats/part-3-electrical-installations/

 

I know that is true for 'leisure boats' , and again, on leisure boats you can do your own gas installation., however as the OP is a liveaboard then the gas has to be installed and certified by a 'professional, certified' person - my question was is it similar for 'liveaboard electrical systems'

[Paul G2]

Unlike electrics in houses that need to be inspected tested and certified to meet the BS7671 wiring regulations on boats it doesn't.

 

A BSS inspector will just have a look at the installation so that it meets the BSS standard.

 

Look here OP it has some good tips.

 

http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/boat-examination/non-private-boats/part-3-electrical-installations/

 

Whether or not something needs to be inspected has no bearing on the quality of the materials and workmanship that should go into an electrical installation.

 

1) The rules/codes exist for good reason. They are simply iterations of minimum standards that should be met for a safe and effective system.

 

2) Doing it right seldom costs much more than doing it wrong, and is considerably less expensive than doing it a second time.

 

Get an electrician to do your electrical work and restrict the DIY projects to things that you are either skilled enough to do, or that don't have the potential to kill you or start a fire.

 

JMHO

[leeco]

 

I know that is true for 'leisure boats' , and again, on leisure boats you can do your own gas installation., however as the OP is a liveaboard then the gas has to be installed and certified by a 'professional, certified' person - my question was is it similar for 'liveaboard electrical systems'

Not on boats no but it has to be installed to meet the BSS standards.

 

Anybody can install electrical installations on boats as long as they follow BSS standards.

 

I'm not sure why boats don't come under the BS7671 and part P.

[b0atman]

Information of the consumer unit should be made known to the examiner .

ITS on the bank with the RCD

Since when is fuse protection on the boat not good enough ?

[leeco]

 

Whether or not something needs to be inspected has no bearing on the quality of the materials and workmanship that should go into an electrical installation.

 

1) The rules/codes exist for good reason. They are simply iterations of minimum standards that should be met for a safe and effective system.

 

2) Doing it right seldom costs much more than doing it wrong, and is considerably less expensive than doing it a second time.

 

Get an electrician to do your electrical work and restrict the DIY projects to things that you are either skilled enough to do, or that don't have the potential to kill you or start a fire.

 

JMHO

I agree as 240v can kill and start fires if you make a mistake.

Information of the consumer unit should be made known to the examiner .

ITS on the bank with the RCD

Since when is fuse protection on the boat not good enough ?

 

An RCD could save your life for the sake of £25

[Alan de Enfield]

Information of the consumer unit should be made known to the examiner .

ITS on the bank with the RCD

Since when is fuse protection on the boat not good enough ?

 

I explained that to the examiner (that there was an RCD in the electrical pillar on the pontoon) The argument was that I may 'plug in one day to a pillar without an RCD', - and, that anyway the BSS requirement was for one to be fitted in the boat.

 

It cost £20 and was a few minutes work as all the wiring was already in place, so not worth arguing about.

[Robbo]

 

I explained that to the examiner (that there was an RCD in the electrical pillar on the pontoon) The argument was that I may 'plug in one day to a pillar without an RCD', - and, that anyway the BSS requirement was for one to be fitted in the boat.

 

It cost £20 and was a few minutes work as all the wiring was already in place, so not worth arguing about.

 

Although it's wise to have a RCD you don't need one...

 

 

If your boat has a 240V supply it's strongly recommended that you fit a residual current device (RCD) to automatically disconnect the supply. This will prevent an earth leakage current flowing through a faulty appliance, and protects someone inadvertently touching a live circuit and getting an electric shock. [3.3]

[John V]

 

I'm not sure why boats don't come under the BS7671 and part P.

 

Because the standards are totally different. The average electrician wouldn't have a clue about the requirements and the last thing you need is an electrician wiring your boat like a house

[Keeping Up]

I was on a brand-new boat - a sailaway - that had been wired by a house electrician once.

 

He had even wired the loom from the engine to the dashboard using twin-&-earth cable(it was not a boat engine that came with a ready made loom, it was actually a Mercedes lorry engine) and it never occurred to him that it might make any difference which cable connected to what. Hence all the switches and gauges were randomly connected to the engine, and then swapped around until he got it to start. All went well until we went out on to the Trent at Beeston; as soon as we opened the throttle to river speed, the thin-walled rubber raw water inlet pipe (yes really!) just sucked in and stopped passing any cooling water so the engine overheated. This caused an alarm relay on the engine to operate, which unfortunately merely had the effect of putting the ammeter directly across the battery supply.

 

Drifting above a weir, on a sailaway that hasn't got any useful items like say an anchor, with a seized engine and a dashboard and wiring loom that are both on fire, is a slightly uncomfortable experience!

[leeco]

 

Because the standards are totally different. The average electrician wouldn't have a clue about the requirements and the last thing you need is an electrician wiring your boat like a house

I get that but when I rewire a house I have to do continuity tests and insulation resistance test and others before I can sign the job off.

 

How come you don't need to do these tests on boats.

[John V]

I get that but when I rewire a house I have to do continuity tests and insulation resistance test and others before I can sign the job off.

 

How come you don't need to do these tests on boats.

 

I did, which is why I stayed in business and was able to get insurance.

[smileypete]

The link in the sig of my post leads to an index of topics with a number on mains eleccy, maybe worth a read.

 

For a registered spark to do it would have thought £200-£250 might cover it as long as the bits aren't too dear and the consumer unit location and cable routing is fairly straightforward, BUT they should use fine stranded cable with the wire ends terminated with ferrules.

 

cheers, Pete.

~smpt~

Edited May 22, 2014 by smileypete

[Alan de Enfield]

 

Although it's wise to have a RCD you don't need one...

 

 

Can you provide any evidence for that statement ?

 

If you can then I can look at making a claim against the Surveyor (or the BSS) for refusing to issue the BSS until one was fitted. (as I noted it had passed a number or previous BSS surveys)

 

Is it a case of the usual inconsistent application of the BSS rules ?

[leeco]

 

Can you provide any evidence for that statement ?

 

If you can then I can look at making a claim against the Surveyor (or the BSS) for refusing to issue the BSS until one was fitted. (as I noted it had passed a number or previous BSS surveys)

 

Is it a case of the usual inconsistent application of the BSS rules ?

 

CH3 page 13

 

http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/180428/bss%20guide%202005%20complete%20web.pdf

 

Best Practice

If your boat has a 230/140V supply, we strongly recommend having a residual current device (RCD) to disconnect the supply automatically in the event of a fault, which may help protect someone from an electrical shock.

Edited May 22, 2014 by leeco

[Alan de Enfield]

CH3 page 13

 

http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/180428/bss%20guide%202005%20complete%20web.pdf

 

Best Practice

If your boat has a 230/140V supply, we strongly recommend having a residual current device (RCD) to disconnect the supply automatically in the event of a fault, which may help protect someone from an electrical shock.

 

Thanks for the link bu that is the old 2005 standard - the 2013 issue is the one that the surveyor 'failed' the boat on.

I have been unable to find a copy of the 2013 issue.

[leeco]

 

Thanks for the link bu that is the old 2005 standard - the 2013 issue is the one that the surveyor 'failed' the boat on.

I have been unable to find a copy of the 2013 issue.

I think this is the 2013 and it seems its still the same with RCDs

 

Page 24 - 3.5.1

 

http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/194782/2013ecp_private%20_boats_ed3_public_final.pdf

[Alan de Enfield]

Only the 'introduction' to the 2013 standards are published and in the 'electrical' section it simply quotes :

 

Electrical systems

8 All electrical systems must be designed, installed and maintained

in a way that minimises the risks of explosion or of fire starting

and spreading.

9 All electrical systems must be capable of being safely and quickly

disconnected from their power source(s) in an emergency.

[leeco]

 

I explained that to the examiner (that there was an RCD in the electrical pillar on the pontoon) The argument was that I may 'plug in one day to a pillar without an RCD', - and, that anyway the BSS requirement was for one to be fitted in the boat.

 

It cost £20 and was a few minutes work as all the wiring was already in place, so not worth arguing about.

Also boats might not come under BS7671 but marinas do come under BS7671 and they must fit RCDs to all socket outlets so you would or should never find a pillar without one fitted.

[Alan de Enfield]

I think this is the 2013 and it seems its still the same with RCDs

 

Page 24 - 3.5.1

 

http://www.boatsafetyscheme.org/media/194782/2013ecp_private%20_boats_ed3_public_final.pdf

 

Many thanks - interesting as it says :

 

Advice for owners – it is strongly advised that a Residual Current Device (RCD) is installed to provide appropriate electric shock protection on a.c. systems.

 

 

Advised but not compulsory, then in section 3:9:2 it goes on to say :

 

 

Applicability – in cases where the only power source is via a shore-power lead, an acceptable alternative to a consumer unit is a MCB or RCBO incorporated within the lead.

 

 

So a circuit breaker does not need to be installed on the boat - one 'within the lead' would be acceptable - I would argue that the breaker in the supply pillar is between the 'supply' and the boat and would therefore be covered.

 

I still cannot see the justification for 'failing' the BSS when there is no RCD / RCBO on the boat

[Keeping Up]

Also boats might not come under BS7671 but marinas do come under BS7671 and they must fit RCDs to all socket outlets so you would or should never find a pillar without one fitted.

Not everywhere with a pillar is a marina.

[leeco]

Not everywhere with a pillar is a marina.

Sorry I should of said Marinas and similar locations.

 

If its near a waterway then it comes under special locations.

 

http://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&frm=1&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Felectrical.theiet.org%2Fwiring-matters%2F41%2Fmarinas.cfm%3Ftype%3Dpdf&ei=1kt-U5zVNJSO7Abp0YGwBQ&usg=AFQjCNHgzpFKwBxL2KiLCgSyrTI4ePHrqg&sig2=iRqF0-qq2lITEdVXFPiuJg

 

 

Edited May 22, 2014 by leeco