Trouble finding the right cooker

[MtB]

When things like this get difficult, it's often a Good Idea to ga back to the beginning and try again.

 

What's wrong with your current cooker? I'm wondering if it can be fixed.

 

 

MtB

[BlueStringPudding]

When things like this get difficult, it's often a Good Idea to ga back to the beginning and try again.

 

What's wrong with your current cooker? I'm wondering if it can be fixed.

 

 

MtB

 

1. Two of the four hobs don't work at all

2. Three hobs, the grill and the oven ignition don't work

3. the flames flicker on and off on all but the oven

4. the front enamel is peeling and there are rust spots

5. there's a weird sharp bit of metal hanging down from the top of the oven

6. It nearly failed me my last BSS and cost a bomb to make it just about pass

7. BSS inspector told me it would not get through my next BSS

8. Next BSS is in 6 weeks time or so

9. The ignition button is missing - I poke my finger in it to make it click

10. The grill pan height isn't adjustable without balancing it on a range of saucepans and frying pans depending on the fatness of the food being grilled

11. The grill is hot to the left and cool to the right

12. I dislike the whole cooker for all these practical, safety and aesthetic reasons

 

 

Edited to add: at least it's not green or white.

Edited February 21, 2014 by BlueStringPudding

[Dyertribe]

1. Two of the four hobs don't work at all

2. Three hobs, the grill and the oven ignition don't work

3. the flames flicker on and off on all but the oven

4. the front enamel is peeling and there are rust spots

5. there's a weird sharp bit of metal hanging down from the top of the oven

6. It nearly failed me my last BSS and cost a bomb to make it just about pass

7. BSS inspector told me it would not get through my next BSS

8. Next BSS is in 6 weeks time or so

9. The ignition button is missing - I poke my finger in it to make it click

10. The grill pan height isn't adjustable without balancing it on a range of saucepans and frying pans depending on the fatness of the food being grilled

11. The grill is hot to the left and cool to the right

12. I dislike the whole cooker for all these practical, safety and aesthetic reasons

 

 

Edited to add: at least it's not green or white.

Fair point, well made.

[Lampyrichard]

 

 

http://www.appliancesdirect.co.uk/p/hag51k/hotpoint-hag51k-gas-cooker#maindesc and http://www.yourspares.co.uk/parts/hotpoint/cookers-and-ovens/hag51k/parts/ys140592/hotpoint-hag51k-jets-kit-for-lpg-de-fendi-C00273303.aspx any use?

 

(That's links to a Hotpoint HAG51K and an LPG jet kit).

 

BSP - have you looked at this one linked to by Paul C, it seems to tick most of your boxes except that the igniter is powered by a 1.5V alkaline AA battery instead of the boat's 12V,

 

Manual is available here, with instructions on how to fit the nozzles also linked to above, so hopefully enough info to get a gas bod or boatyard to quote on doing the swap:

 

http://imagebank.indesitcompany.co.uk/brochures_online/pdf/Hotpoint/Cooking/HAG51_HAL51_52TGW_19508240302.pdf

 

The Rinnai boiler on OH's current boat has a battery powered igniter & you get plenty of notice when it's getting low as the 'ticks' get slower & slower, so hopefully not too much of a bind compared to having a permanent 12V supply...

 

I've bookmarked it as a possible replacement for the woeful Vanette oven I have on Zulu if I ever get around to sorting out the kitchen.

 

Richard

Edited February 21, 2014 by Lampyrichard

[BlueStringPudding]

Thanks Lampy and Paul. I hadn't seen the link to the LPG jets because I'd looked at that Hotpoint cooker on another website (maybe Currys) and it specifically said it was not convertible to LPG. (See my post #14)

 

Maybe they lied! http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/household-appliances/cooking/cookers/gas-cookers/hotpoint-hag51k-gas-cooker-black-16474969-pdt.html

 

I'm about to get excited again if this one really can be LPG'd.

Edited February 22, 2014 by BlueStringPudding

[MtB]

 

1. Two of the four hobs don't work at all

2. Three hobs, the grill and the oven ignition don't work

3. the flames flicker on and off on all but the oven

4. the front enamel is peeling and there are rust spots

5. there's a weird sharp bit of metal hanging down from the top of the oven

6. It nearly failed me my last BSS and cost a bomb to make it just about pass

7. BSS inspector told me it would not get through my next BSS

8. Next BSS is in 6 weeks time or so

9. The ignition button is missing - I poke my finger in it to make it click

10. The grill pan height isn't adjustable without balancing it on a range of saucepans and frying pans depending on the fatness of the food being grilled

11. The grill is hot to the left and cool to the right

12. I dislike the whole cooker for all these practical, safety and aesthetic reasons

 

 

Edited to add: at least it's not green or white.

 

 

Hmmm......

 

Apart from that, nothing wrong with it you say?

 

 

MtB

[BlueStringPudding]

 

 

Hmmm......

 

Apart from that, nothing wrong with it you say?

 

 

MtB

 

Apart from those 12 things, it's a fab cooker!

Thanks Lampy and Paul. I hadn't seen the link to the LPG jets because I'd looked at that Hotpoint cooker on another website (maybe Currys) and it specifically said it was not convertible to LPG. (See my post #14)

 

Maybe they lied! http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/household-appliances/cooking/cookers/gas-cookers/hotpoint-hag51k-gas-cooker-black-16474969-pdt.html

 

I'm about to get excited again if this one really can be LPG'd.

 

Uh oh - one website says this cooker has fan cooling. What does than mean and how is that powered - bearing in mind the ignition is battery so I was rather hoping it needs no electrical connection at all? Anyone got something similar on their gas cookers?

[MtB]

 

Uh oh - one website says this cooker has fan cooling. What does than mean and how is that powered - bearing in mind the ignition is battery so I was rather hoping it needs no electrical connection at all? Anyone got something similar on their gas cookers?

 

You can probably trust the manufacturer's site, which says its a static oven. No power supply stated either so chances of it having a fan are virtually zero.

 

http://www.hotpoint.co.uk/products/-/products/F062351

 

MtB

Sadly, this cooker can't be used BSP.

 

The installation instructions demand spaces each side when installed next to tall cupboards. See page 5 of the manual, figure A, here:

 

http://imagebank.indesitcompany.co.uk/brochures_online/pdf/Hotpoint/Cooking/HAG51_HAL51_52TGW_19508240302.pdf

 

 

MtB

[BlueStringPudding]

It's a wall not a cupboard. And it's got fireboard stuff and tiles on it. Why is that not allowed for this make of cooker? Is that the same for all cookers? I don't understand.

Edited February 22, 2014 by BlueStringPudding

[MtB]

It will be due to the effect where the gas flames spread out from the sides under a large saucepan on the hob and set fire to cupboards at the side higher than worktop height.

 

If your walls are fireproof enough then it may be safe. You might also have a problem getting it past a BSS if the BSS bod is tuned in to this risk, or sees the installation manual. Appliances must be installed in accordance with the instructions. Many are not though and no-one notices

 

MtB

P.S. forgot to say, similar gap requirements probably apply to all gas cookers.

[BlueStringPudding]

Damn expensive purchase if it fails the BSS though

[BlueStringPudding]

http://www.zanussi.co.uk/Support/Manuals/?product=948+905+408

 

So here's a Zanussi one. Not as sexy as the Hotpoint. Convertible to LPG and has battery ignition. The instructions clearly state that LPG cookers must not be installed on boats. Not this model - any LPG cooker (page 20). Is that referring only to Republic of Ireland!?

 

How the heck can BSS regulations follow the makers manual when it says stuff like that!?

[GoodGurl]

both 500 wide.

http://www.spirit-leisure-accessories.co.uk/ourshop/prod_2068913-Stoves-500DIT-T3-LPG-Cooker-12v-ignition.html
----------------------------------------------------
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stoves-500-DIS-T3-LPG-Cooker-12volt-ignition-4-burner-hob-mobile-homes-boats-/250908629034

[Paul C]

Further to my quesion above about how to install a built-in cooker, if it's possible with my galley layout, here's a photo of how the current cooker is fitted:

 

 

This is an oooold photo from when I bought the boat. But the way the cooker stands in that nook remains the same.

 

YouTube is failing me on "how to install a built in cooker" to try and work out whether it's even possible.

 

Swap location of cooker and fridge. Mount cooker a little to the right of the old fridge location. Relocate/remove shelves and install a cooker splashback or use one with a lid.

[MtB]

http://www.zanussi.co.uk/Support/Manuals/?product=948+905+408

 

So here's a Zanussi one. Not as sexy as the Hotpoint. Convertible to LPG and has battery ignition. The instructions clearly state that LPG cookers must not be installed on boats. Not this model - any LPG cooker (page 20). Is that referring only to Republic of Ireland!?

 

How the heck can BSS regulations follow the makers manual when it says stuff like that!?

 

The manual is obviously wrong!

 

Very unusual.

 

 

MtB

[Tony Brooks]

 

The manual is obviously wrong!

 

Very unusual.

 

 

MtB

 

Maybe its not CE marked for marine use so they are covering their backs.

[BlueStringPudding]

 

Swap location of cooker and fridge. Mount cooker a little to the right of the old fridge location. Relocate/remove shelves and install a cooker splashback or use one with a lid.

That's a massive undertaking and means a full remodelling of the kitchen, ripping out units and work surfaces to widen the fridge space to be big enough for a cooker, loss of or relocation of work surfaces and then needing to fireboard and tile and new cooker space. Also rerouting the gas pipes and ensuring the plumbing pipes behind the fridge are protected from heat. And behind the fridge are al the busbars for the electrics, I don't want those at the back of a gas cooker.

 

As mentioned above, I don't intend to redesign the entire kitchen because of one appliance. I'll find the right appliance.

[MtB]

 

Maybe its not CE marked for marine use so they are covering their backs.

 

It was the manual's statement that all LPG cookers are banned on boats that is, QED, wrong.

 

 

MtB

 

 

 

(Keeping editing, I'll get it right in the end!!)

Edited February 22, 2014 by Mike the Boilerman

[BlueStringPudding]

both 500 wide.

http://www.spirit-leisure-accessories.co.uk/ourshop/prod_2068913-Stoves-500DIT-T3-LPG-Cooker-12v-ignition.html

----------------------------------------------------

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Stoves-500-DIS-T3-LPG-Cooker-12volt-ignition-4-burner-hob-mobile-homes-boats-/250908629034

 

Thanks, Goody. But neither are freestanding, I've already looked at these. Which takes me back to my question in post #23:

 

" If I could understand what sort of structure a built in cooker has to be fixed on or to, it'd help to see whether it's something achievable with my kitchen layout that won't cost me the earth to pay someone to do.

 

My current cooker is freestanding. I expect for a reason. So I'm trying to replace like for like. Maybe that's not necessary?"

 

The manual is obviously wrong!

 

Very unusual.

 

 

MtB

 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrgh!

 

 

I just want a bleedin' cooker! If the manufacturers cant even write a manual and vendors cant agree on the dimensions or whether they're LPG convertible or not, what the heck chance does anyone have of choosing a fecking cooker that'll get through a BSS and fit what is a pretty standard sized narrowboat galley!? :banghead:

[BEngo]

 

Thanks, Goody. But neither are freestanding, I've already looked at these. Which takes me back to my question in post #23:

 

" If I could understand what sort of structure a built in cooker has to be fixed on or to, it'd help to see whether it's something achievable with my kitchen layout that won't cost me the earth to pay someone to do.

 

My current cooker is freestanding. I expect for a reason. So I'm trying to replace like for like. Maybe that's not necessary?"

 

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaarrrrrrrrrrgh!

 

 

I just want a bleedin' cooker! If the manufacturers cant even write a manual and vendors cant agree on the dimensions or whether they're LPG convertible or not, what the heck chance does anyone have of choosing a fecking cooker that'll get through a BSS and fit what is a pretty standard sized narrowboat galley!?

 

As well as the usual gas supplies, power etc, a built in cooker will require a hole in a worktop for the hob, a bit smaller than the hob and probably rectangular with rounded corners. You will also need a cupboard for the oven unit to sit in. The units for ovens in houses are pretty much standard cupboard units, with a shelf positioned to support the oven - usually with the oven at eye-level. There is insulation on the outside of the oven unit and usually an air gap all round as it sits in the cupboard. There may be no back, or holes in the back for ventilation. Depending on the oven units installation instructions the cupboard may need some extra heat protection inside. This often comes with the oven.

 

Sizes etc. are all dependent on what you buy. I would not buy anything without first reading the installation instructions and checking that it can be fitted in your kitchen without a major refit. Most fixed-base suppliers are OK with you reading the instructions ( they are usually in the oven), or Google may be your friend if you have a model number.

 

N

[BlueStringPudding]

Thanks BEngo. That sounds complicated - are you describing a separate oven and hob though? Or a one piece built-in cooker?

 

 

I wonder if any of the BSS examiner types on this forum could share their thoughts on this thread? Ultimately if they look to a manufacturer's manual and the manual is wrong, and they know its wrong - what next!? Does a £500 brand new appliance get written off? Do they all really examine the manual or use their own knowledge of boat safety to judge the suitability of the cooker installation?

 

I need some help here.

[MtB]

The basic problem that free standing cookers are deeply unfashionable in boats and you are being extremely picky about what you want.

 

The Bompani white, single cavity, no ignition cooker is the one that sells in volume to the peeps who want a free standing cooker!

 

In addition, I think your current cooker should never have been fitted there and BSS bods have failed to notice the side clearance contraventions, should you find and read the installation manual for it.

 

I agree with Bengo, best to stop looking for something that never existed and fit a separate hob and built in oven.

 

 

MtB

[BlueStringPudding]

It's a hireboat, Mike. Built to a template same as a squiillion other hireboats, and has passed safety standards / every BSS since it was built in 1997/8. Cant have been that dangerous.

 

Clearance was not failed to be noticed by my last BSS. The cooker was pulled forward slightly and a baton fitted to prevent it pushing too close against the back wall. There was no safety concern about side clearance at all. Your statement about side clearance has only appeared in one Hotpoint manual. Not in the Zanussi or Indeset ones I've read. So how can you imply it was a failing of all previous BSS examiners regarding side clearance if only one manufacturer - who didn't build my cooker - states the need for side clearance of high walls?

 

The single cavity cookers are a nightmare for space. You have to open the huge door and leave it open while grilling. I consider that dangerous for anyone including myself walking by. I use the grill almost daily, often twice a day. Accident waiting to happen IMHO. If my safety standards are higher than BSS ones, then I'll go with my instinct.

 

I don't understand your advice to fit a separate hob and oven. Why? I have already asked whether it's feasible to change my freestanding set up for built in. But why two separate units when there are so many single piece built in cookers? What is being gained from splitting the appliance, except for money in the pocket of the carpenters and fitters? Splitting the appliance sounds like over engineering a solution and creating more problems.

Edited February 22, 2014 by BlueStringPudding

[Lampyrichard]

http://www.zanussi.co.uk/Support/Manuals/?product=948+905+408

 

So here's a Zanussi one. Not as sexy as the Hotpoint. Convertible to LPG and has battery ignition. The instructions clearly state that LPG cookers must not be installed on boats. Not this model - any LPG cooker (page 20). Is that referring only to Republic of Ireland!?

 

How the heck can BSS regulations follow the makers manual when it says stuff like that!?

Well if the Zanussi manual writers are following normal convention, then yes the basement / boat restriction is only referring to RoI regs, as the whole comment is contained within the paragraph / bullet point starting 'For appliances installed in the Republic...'

 

If they really meant to cover the whole of the EU then that restriction should have had its own paragraph.

 

Unfortunately the Zanussi also has space requirements either side. Under Location of appliance at the end of p19 it says:

 

If fitted next to or between two base units a minimum space of 1mm must be left between each unit and the sides of the appliance. The hob

must be set to a minimum of 7mm above the adjacent units. (Note: The levelling feet fitted to the appliance will achieve a nominal height of 907mm -5+ 13mm. Base units not meeting the above

conditions must be a minimum of 100mm away from the hob.

 

My bold. The accompanying picture at the top of p20 assumes that you can meet the +7mm requirement, so it doesn't represent your installation.

It looks likely to be buried somewhere in all freestanding cooker instructions as MtB says.

However, as you point out, the sides of the alcove are protected with fireboard & your boat has passed every BSS, so maybe a call to BSS office to see if you can get some proper guidance on your installation that you can wave at future inspectors.

eta Indesit have exactly the same requirements as Hotpoint (unsurprising as they're the same company).

Edited February 22, 2014 by Lampyrichard

[Paul C]

That's a massive undertaking and means a full remodelling of the kitchen, ripping out units and work surfaces to widen the fridge space to be big enough for a cooker, loss of or relocation of work surfaces and then needing to fireboard and tile and new cooker space. Also rerouting the gas pipes and ensuring the plumbing pipes behind the fridge are protected from heat. And behind the fridge are al the busbars for the electrics, I don't want those at the back of a gas cooker.

 

As mentioned above, I don't intend to redesign the entire kitchen because of one appliance. I'll find the right appliance.

 

Yep, is a solution, probably not the best solution though. It does seem to be an unusual cooker location though. I know Black Prince ex (and current) hire boats are very numerous, but they do have kitchens on the small side. I reckon your options are (in order of preference)

 

1) go for a 240V ignition model. This opens up the choice to a wider number of cookers

2) go for a secondhand, compliant, cooker.

3) go for the £550 cooker

 

I'm not sure there's that many cookers which are happy to be boxed in quite so snugly, detailed browsing of their installation manuals would reveal the situation. If none can be boxed in, then there's:

 

4) shuffle around appliances in the kitchen so you can fit a cooker of your choice.