Composite tax

[Forest Gump]

would love to hear comments on composite tax which appears to be arriving at a marina near you soon!!

 

the tax is to cover the residential aspect of things - ie you can use the marina as an address and in theory you have a residential mooring, albeit still on a 12 month marina contract.....The Composite rate would provide some security against the council coming to move you on but as I understand does not allow you any more rights regarding using local facilities as strictly speaking you are not a "full payer"

 

One of the issues which appears to cause the biggest irritation is to fulfill the requirement, the valuation office require you to move off your home berth either some times a year or for longer periods say every six months for six months. It is an easy process of swapping with neighbours but some moorings have been selected for their outlook, mobile phone signal or easy access.

 

Has anyone else encountered this ?

does anyone move?
does anything happen if you don't?

 

any serious thoughts on this would be welcome

the gumpmaster

Edited January 12, 2014 by Forest Gump

[ditchcrawler]

Sounds like marinas are just looking for another way to make a few bob and wont be passing it on to anyone

[Higgs]

would love to hear comments on composite tax which appears to be arriving at a marina near you soon!!

 

the tax is to cover the residential aspect of things - ie you can use the marina as an address and in theory you have a residential mooring, albeit still on a 12 month marina contract.....The Composite rate would provide some security against the council coming to move you on but as I understand does not allow you any more rights regarding using local facilities as strictly speaking you are not a "full payer"

 

One of the issues which appears to cause the biggest irritation is to fulfill the requirement, the valuation office require you to move off your home berth either some times a year or for longer periods say every six months for six months. It is an easy process of swapping with neighbours but some moorings have been selected for their outlook, mobile phone signal or easy access.

 

Has anyone else encountered this ?

does anyone move?

does anything happen if you don't?

 

any serious thoughts on this would be welcome

the gumpmaster

 

It is being worked through at the large marina I'm currently at; this requirement to move. About 180 of the moorings are going to be residential in September. This is out of 540 mooring, plus. The council want the residential moorers to move. At present they are asking for three times a year, but I think the marina is negotiating for every six months. It is to do with the valuations and I don't fully understand the logic.

 

However, the cost for the residential charge is working out at around £150 a year. Apparently, if these moves don't take place, the residential moorers would be subject to the full band Council Tax.

 

This movement will be within the marina, but to a different mooring. Musical chairs.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Higgs

[Grace and Favour]

would love to hear comments on composite tax which appears to be arriving at a marina near you soon!!

 

the tax is to cover the residential aspect of things - ie you can use the marina as an address and in theory you have a residential mooring, albeit still on a 12 month marina contract.....The Composite rate would provide some security against the council coming to move you on but as I understand does not allow you any more rights regarding using local facilities as strictly speaking you are not a "full payer"

 

One of the issues which appears to cause the biggest irritation is to fulfill the requirement, the valuation office require you to move off your home berth either some times a year or for longer periods say every six months for six months. It is an easy process of swapping with neighbours but some moorings have been selected for their outlook, mobile phone signal or easy access.

 

Has anyone else encountered this ?

does anyone move?

does anything happen if you don't?

 

any serious thoughts on this would be welcome

the gumpmaster

Whilst I think 'Higgs' has addressed some points (though I do wonder if it's a Marina decision to want moorers to move a little - and not the Council's) I'm interested to learn of what council facilities the OP think they're prevented from taking full advantage of.

[Guest]

This movement will be within the marina, but to a different mooring. Musical chairs.

 

Bonkers! - what does that achieve?

[Higgs]

Whilst I think 'Higgs' has addressed some points (though I do wonder if it's a Marina decision to want moorers to move a little - and not the Council's) I'm interested to learn of what council facilities the OP think they're prevented from taking full advantage of.

 

I honestly don't think this is the case here. The marina is well used and any movement would not be in the marina's interest. Moorers generally like to keep a mooring until they decide to leave. The movements, I think, will just be between the residential. Swapping places. Although, I can't be sure. There's another meeting in March.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Higgs

[John Williamson 1955]

 

Bonkers! - what does that achieve?

Maybe it changes the council tax category from "Permanent residence" to "holiday home"?

[Alan de Enfield]

I beleive its down to 'who pays the CT'.

 

If the moorer moves to a different mooring then the mooring is not 'theirs' and the 'moorer' is not subject to CT. If the mooroer does not move then they have 12 month occupancy of one specific place (mooring) and the moorer will be charged full band A 'CT'

 

If the boats 'move' then the CT is applied as a value across the whole of the number of morings (180 ?) this results in a lower equivalent charge (per mooring) than if each paid seperately. The difference is that the Marina owner now pays the CT.

 

The marina owner then charges the 'moorer' 1/180th of the total amount by adding it to he mooring costs.

 

Example :

1) If the moorer had sole use of a mooring then band A would apply - about £1000 per year.

2) If the moorer moves, the Marina pay a reduced 'group rate' CT on the total value ie = £27,000 pa

3)Marina recharges moorer 1/180t of £27,000 = £150pa

 

From the VOA website :

 

Example 3

A man lives on a motor cruiser with living accommodation on board. He rents a berth in a marina comprising a finger pontoon at right angles to the bank with water supply and sewage pump-out. The marina operator controls access to the site and reserves a continual right to move the boat from its mooring. When the boat is absent, as it frequently is for weekends and holidays, and even though the boat owner pays rent continuously in order to reserve a berth at the site, the marina operator allows other boats to use the mooring.

 

Although the mooring is virtually in permanent use and affords self-containment to any boat with living accommodation, the cruiser owner's occupation of the mooring is non-exclusive and insufficiently permanent for him to be liable for Council Tax. The marina operator is in paramount occupation of the mooring for the purposes of his business of running a marina. If the other boats which use the mooring are also someone's sole or main residence, only the mooring would be domestic property and subject to banding. The boat itself would not be included in the valuation.

 

If the other boats which use the mooring are not someone's sole or main residence or there is no way of knowing what their use would be, the mooring will be non-domestic. If there are two or more such moorings in the marina, all the moorings and land under the control of the marina operator should be treated as one hereditament by virtue of the Multiple Moorings Regulations. The marina operator will be in permanent occupation.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Alan de Enfield

[Guest]

Maybe it changes the council tax category from "Permanent residence" to "holiday home"?

 

But you would think that to get that designation you would need to leave the marina all together

 

- What Higgs describes would be like residents on a holiday park swapping caravans!

[Forest Gump]

Thanks for the interest - to answer q's

 

the moving is down to the valuation office (which ever one you wish to use) - and it is to show that the berth is not exclusively yours - the mere fact that it is stated in the contract as not being yours (non exclusive) and the marina operator can if they wish move boats (although it is not common practice) does not appease the valuation office....

The point about people liking or choosing their home berths is valid and yes people using their boats for leisure are not obliged to become involved in moving around....It is not something the marina is demanding as pointed out - it is strictly a valuation officer - for their part it is best for the marina operator if the boats can stay in situ as they would have to become involved in switching over electrical supplies to new occupiers in the case of metered electric and a refund system for tokens

 

Composite tax - the next copied paragraph in relation to composite tax comes from the practice notes 7 of the valuation notices and if anyone wants the link or full name of the report to read ?? I will happily oblige

 

The big downside with a composite payment made by the marina is that it is simply an increase in business rates to keep the local council happy and therefore does not necessarily grant any access to local facilities e.g. schools, library, electoral register, etc. that we would get from paying Band A direct to the council.

[John Williamson 1955]

 

But you would think that to get that designation you would need to leave the marina all together

 

- What Higgs describes would be like residents on a holiday park swapping caravans!

I think most of us leave the marina from time to time, otherwise why live on a boat?

 

What Higgs describes would be more like residential park home owners swapping pitches.

[Higgs]

 

But you would think that to get that designation you would need to leave the marina all together

 

- What Higgs describes would be like residents on a holiday park swapping caravans!

 

I think Alan de Enfield's explaination probably fits the bill. We all think, on the surface, this movement does sound bonkers. If the regulations mean we are forced to move around, I guess we'll live with it.

 

The one useful thing it does come with, a postal address.

Edited January 12, 2014 by Higgs

[Guest]

I think most of us leave the marina from time to time, otherwise why live on a boat?

 

What Higgs describes would be more like residential park home owners swapping pitches.

 

Possibly but equally pointless.

 

And if you leave the marina why the requirement to move within it (or if you do does that cancel out the need to move within?)

[Forest Gump]

mr alan de enfield point - example 3 does not apply as most pontoons - finger pontoons DO NOT have sewage and water facilities alongside.....and although there may be water it is shared and there will not be any sewage facilities..

 

 

But you would think that to get that designation you would need to leave the marina all together

 

- What Higgs describes would be like residents on a holiday park swapping carav

 

exactly

[Guest]

Thanks for the interest - to answer q's

 

the moving is down to the valuation office (which ever one you wish to use) - and it is to show that the berth is not exclusively yours - the mere fact that it is stated in the contract as not being yours (non exclusive) and the marina operator can if they wish move boats (although it is not common practice) does not appease the valuation office....

 

It all smacks of petty bureaucracy in it's most extreme form.

 

You often can as per marina T&C's as you rightly say be moved of 'your' particular mooring on to another at any point by the marina owners, it's frankly petty and pathetic that they haven't accepted this.

[Alan de Enfield]

mr alan de enfield point - example 3 does not apply as most pontoons - finger pontoons DO NOT have sewage and water facilities alongside.....and although there may be water it is shared and there will not be any sewage facilities..

 

It was just an example - it is unlikely that any 'example' will 100% cover the situation.

 

Here is another example (no sewage) - put the two together and maybe its somewhere near the situation at Mercia :

 

Example 4

A couple live on a narrow boat as their sole or main residence. They pay a mooring fee to the British Waterways Board for one of several moorings along the towing path and a licence fee to be on the canal. They share a water tap with the other boats, but the nearest sewage disposal facility is some distance away. Periodically, they move the boat to dispose of sewage; and every few years the boat is taken into dry dock for essential maintenance. British Waterways Board reserves a continual right to allocate a different mooring, for example, in order to accommodate boats of different length at the site, but in practice the boat returns to the same mooring, which is not used by other boats in its absence It has a postal address and post is delivered direct to the boat.

 

The mooring is domestic property by virtue of s.66(4) and sufficiently defined as to form a separate hereditament. The boat is moored with a sufficient degree of permanence as to be enjoyed with the mooring and therefore should be regarded as part of the hereditament and be included in the valuation for banding purposes.

 

If however the separate moorings along the canal bank are not easily identified, either in the agreement with BWB or on the ground, and can vary each time a boat is moored, as the boat always returns to a different position, then the hereditament will comprise of the whole length of moorings along that part of the canal, and the rateable occupier will be the BWB. The boat will not form part of the hereditament because it lacks sufficient permanence to be enjoyed with the land.

 

If the moorings are solely occupied by boats which are the sole or residence of an individual, then there will be a single Council Tax banding of all the moorings. However, should pleasure boats also use the moorings, the moorings should be treated as a composite hereditament. In many cases a common sense view will need to be taken of the extent of the domestic and non-domestic parts, and regulation 7(1) of the Council Tax (Situation and Valuation of Dwellings) Regulations 1992 requires a band to be ascribed which reflects the value which would reasonably attributed to the domestic use. The distribution between domestic and non domestic use will therefore reflect how the market would view the use of the hereditament, if it were made available with vacant possession. The actual use of the moorings at compilation date, or a notional distribution based on the prevailing pattern of use along moorings in that locality can be adopted.

 

Where a single composite hereditament is appropriate, the non domestic part in this example will be included in the Central List assessment for BWB, and a single Council Tax band will be entered in the valuation list for the residential moorings.

[Forest Gump]

 

It was just an example - it is unlikely that any 'example' will 100% cover the situation.

 

Here is another example (no sewage) - put the two together and maybe its somewhere near the situation at Mercia :

 

Example 4

A couple live on a narrow boat as their sole or main residence. They pay a mooring fee to the British Waterways Board for one of several moorings along the towing path and a licence fee to be on the canal. They share a water tap with the other boats, but the nearest sewage disposal facility is some distance away. Periodically, they move the boat to dispose of sewage; and every few years the boat is taken into dry dock for essential maintenance. British Waterways Board reserves a continual right to allocate a different mooring, for example, in order to accommodate boats of different length at the site, but in practice the boat returns to the same mooring, which is not used by other boats in its absence It has a postal address and post is delivered direct to the boat.

 

The mooring is domestic property by virtue of s.66(4) and sufficiently defined as to form a separate hereditament. The boat is moored with a sufficient degree of permanence as to be enjoyed with the mooring and therefore should be regarded as part of the hereditament and be included in the valuation for banding purposes.

 

If however the separate moorings along the canal bank are not easily identified, either in the agreement with BWB or on the ground, and can vary each time a boat is moored, as the boat always returns to a different position, then the hereditament will comprise of the whole length of moorings along that part of the canal, and the rateable occupier will be the BWB. The boat will not form part of the hereditament because it lacks sufficient permanence to be enjoyed with the land.

 

If the moorings are solely occupied by boats which are the sole or residence of an individual, then there will be a single Council Tax banding of all the moorings. However, should pleasure boats also use the moorings, the moorings should be treated as a composite hereditament. In many cases a common sense view will need to be taken of the extent of the domestic and non-domestic parts, and regulation 7(1) of the Council Tax (Situation and Valuation of Dwellings) Regulations 1992 requires a band to be ascribed which reflects the value which would reasonably attributed to the domestic use. The distribution between domestic and non domestic use will therefore reflect how the market would view the use of the hereditament, if it were made available with vacant possession. The actual use of the moorings at compilation date, or a notional distribution based on the prevailing pattern of use along moorings in that locality can be adopted.

 

Where a single composite hereditament is appropriate, the non domestic part in this example will be included in the Central List assessment for BWB, and a single Council Tax band will be entered in the valuation list for the residential moorings.

 

Its interesting to note that law lords sitting on an appeal case stated that they could not make any sense of the documentation how could members of the public be expected to get the full picture ..

 

 

guess we could go on and on and there may be no answers......

Edited January 12, 2014 by Forest Gump

[Rod a mod from Tod]

I can see this mooring swap, especially the first couple of weeks after swapping, leading to some interesting encounters on returning back to base after an extended sesh in the the pub.

[Higgs]

It's going to be slightly more tricky for the wide beams. There's already a waiting list for them and fewer places to move to.

[Alan de Enfield]

It's going to be slightly more tricky for the wide beams. There's already a waiting list for them and fewer places to move to.

 

Presumably the widebeams already have moorings so its just a case of one 'pulls out' another 'pulls in' and they swap places - a bit like the visitors moorings in London (alegedly)

[Ex- Member]

Slightly

 

When I first glanced the title of this thread I thought it read composting Tax I shuddered being the proud owner of a composting toilet

 

Then reading the thread it seems like a load of BS to me anyway So my first assumption wasn't far wrong it appears

Edited January 12, 2014 by Julynian

[Higgs]

 

Presumably the widebeams already have moorings so its just a case of one 'pulls out' another 'pulls in' and they swap places - a bit like the visitors moorings in London (alegedly)

 

As long as they're working with even numbers or one vacant space. It isn't unknown in this marina for narrowboats having to wait for a change of place., when requested.

[Guest]

Opps deleted same point already made....

Edited January 12, 2014 by The Dog House

[Higgs]

 

As long as they're working with even numbers or one vacant space. It isn't unknown in this marina for narrowboats having to wait for a change of place., when requested.

 

Eer

 

Testimonial

 

" Higgs is a vacant space and a right proper charlie".

 

Signed, His ( I can't stop laughing at the gaff ) mate.

 

 

[Tuscan]

Only downside is the marina pays for a fixed number of berths , so if people move out and say only 150 of the 180 are filled then the price will go up, many marinas I imagine will also want their 10% to cover the hassle factor.