Lister 2 cy air cooled LR series ref 652LR219.

[QDos]

A few questions for the group as I am new reasonably new to the Canal.

Brian is 33ft built in 1990 , owned by me for 6 months and lived in during the week - brought as a neglected shell and I am sorting the inside - Water , 12V/240V , Gas and fit out etc ,hull and paintwork booked in for March. My attention is now on the engine. It starts from cold very well (except the day after a long run - took all 3 new batteries to get going yesterday) - it seems to run hot but maybe I'm not used to aircooling - I put a bilge blower in the 4" outlet duct but it melted !.

The main issue is ( I thought that this was initally due to overheating) is that it runs fine , if a bit noisy with some black exaust , for 20-30 mins then seems to lose power , we struggle on for 30mins or so trashing the engine , the exaust getting more and more smokey speed down to 1 mph (we actually went backwards in a strong gust of wing over the weekend) until we stop for a cool down and a fiddle - usually involving bad language and cut hands on that bloody aluminium ducting. 30 mins later start up and off we go - engine sounds fine, speed 3.5 mph maybe for another 30 - 40mins untill the same again - must be overheating ?? however we noticed a couple of things:

• Runs fine between locks - no matter how many locks so long as they are close together and engine used back and forward in lock.
• Seems to be rejuvinated after a very short stop - no time to cool down
• Seems to find lots of power if revved hard in reverse then "slamed" into forward -if you keep doing this every 15mins you can go all day (still gets hot and difficult to start the next day)

Does anyone have any suggestions ? - I have very limited access as it is crammed into a small space ( can post pics) - the only engineer I have had look very soon after I brought it said he could not get at anything unless I cut out access panels in the deck and sides. I think that it has been neglected since 2006.

 

 

[mrsmelly]

Hi

 

My first boat had a hand start LR2 fitted, no oil filter, no oil pressure light, no nowt. Fantastic and pushed my 56 foot narrowboat all over the system including tidal Trent ( Though not recomended on that engine ) It had a very tiny fuel filter that was the only weak point on it so I changed it once in my five years of ownership of the boat. It smoked like hell on load so one day I whipped the heads off ( complete doddle ) and put new valves, springs etc and injectors at a cost twenty years ago of something like three and six ish. It still smoked but it made me feel better Keep the engine they are great.

 

Tim

[MoominPapa]

• Runs fine between locks - no matter how many locks so long as they are close together and engine used back and forward in lock.
• Seems to be rejuvinated after a very short stop - no time to cool down
• Seems to find lots of power if revved hard in reverse then "slamed" into forward -if you keep doing this every 15mins you can go all day (still gets hot and difficult to start the next day)

Does anyone have any suggestions ? - I have very limited access as it is crammed into a small space ( can post pics) - the only engineer I have had look very soon after I brought it said he could not get at anything unless I cut out access panels in the deck and sides. I think that it has been neglected since 2006.

 

It's very likely, at this time of year, that you're picking up leaves on the prop. They really mess up the water flow over the blades, and give all the symptoms you're seeing, but float off as soon as the prop stops, so unless you know, it's incredibly hard to diagnose.

 

A quick burst of reverse whenever the boat starts to slow or the engine bog down may be all you need.

 

MP.

[QDos]

Thanks - I will look out for leaves , there were certainly a lot about. One of the things I do when stopped is lift the weed hatch to have a look at the prop , mostly its clear. The problem however has been ongoing since buying the boat 6 months ago - we only worked out the quick fix reverse/forward routine over the last few days on the water.

 

 

Q

[MoominPapa]

Thanks - I will look out for leaves , there were certainly a lot about. One of the things I do when stopped is lift the weed hatch to have a look at the prop , mostly its clear. The problem however has been ongoing since buying the boat 6 months ago - we only worked out the quick fix reverse/forward routine over the last few days on the water.

 

 

Q

What gearbox do you have? I wonder if the reverse clutch is dragging when you're in forward gear? Maybe a leaky hydraulic valve that lets pressure slowly build in the reverse actuating cylinder?

 

MP.

[QDos]

Hi MP

I'm not on Brian at the moment so I will check tomorrow when I am

 

I think it's a Lister HL 150 hydraulic reverse - will let you know , I do know that the gearbox dipstick has a red top and allmost impossible to reach !

 

Q

[Stilllearning]

It almost certainly is leaves on the prop, hard to believe, but incredibly common , and annoying! From your description it is a Lister gearbox, I suggest you don't slam it into reverse but just ease into neutral then reverse for a second or two on a regular basis - the usual suggestion being just as you go through a bridge hole. This gets leaves off the prop and avoids picking up sunken nasties that get dropped off bridge parapets by thoughtless so and sos.

[QDos]

Thanks - leaves are no 1 , reverse gear drag no 2. After the hull blacking has been done and the paint job , may look at a reconditioning the engine next year.

 

Cheers

Q

[Erie Canal]

Hi, mine had similar problems this summer till it gave up altogether. For me it was a clogged fuel pump ( and water in diesel!) and given and oil change she been running beautiful since. ( I have LP 2 cylinder air cooled, owned for a year) hope you get her sorted soon,

[Albion]

Thanks - I will look out for leaves , there were certainly a lot about. One of the things I do when stopped is lift the weed hatch to have a look at the prop , mostly its clear. The problem however has been ongoing since buying the boat 6 months ago - we only worked out the quick fix reverse/forward routine over the last few days on the water.

 

 

Q

The lack of leaves when you look is fairly common. By the time you've got the weed hatch up the leaves have floated off because, unlike a solid obstruction, there's nothing to keep them hanging around once the prop stops turning. Try bursts of reverse and see what happens but be prepared to do it annoyingly frequently because they soon build up again. If the reverse burst doesn't work then you've got to look elsewhere for your problem.

Roger

[PhilR]

Quotes from OP in red:

 

I put a bilge blower in the 4" outlet duct but it melted

 

we struggle on for 30mins or so trashing the engine

 

Seems to find lots of power if revved hard in reverse then "slamed" into forward

 

Is that 4 " diameter outlet ducting? and now many outlet ducts? If you melted a bilge blower it sounds like serious overheating due to inadequate sized ducting, but the boat has been in service since 1990 so it would help if you can provide a bit more info........ presumably, it has survived OK till now.

 

*trashing* doesn't sound good for the engine.

 

Slammed into forward doesn't - even if the box is an LH150

[Iain_S]

May be a daft question, but do the outlet ducts finish up outside the engine compartment?

 

Iain

[Bee]

Run it without intake or outlet ducts and see what happens, shouldn`t get hot enough to melt anything, smoky could be blocked air filter (not cooling air) or overloaded engine, gearbox is possible but I don`t know much about your `box, I would think if it is trying to go fwds and reverse at the same time it would get v. hot. Leaves are a damn nuisance and they will prevent the prop from pushing at all but they should not overload the engine.

[QDos]

Hi

Thanks for the comments - have some pics of the set up but cant seem to upload ?

 

The air out splits int 3 x 4" aluminium ducts , 2 run for 1-2 meters to outlet grates in the stern and one goes into a length of square section pvc pipe down the length of the internal space - a form of heating. I put the bilge blower in the one that runs to the port side about 40 cm from the air box attaced to the engine - on reflection not a good move but hey ho nothing ventured ......

Someone has mentioned overfilling with oil and I suspect that I am overfilled as my dipstick has 3 lines on one side and one on the other - the oil is filled to the highest one 50cm up the stick.

The Gearbox has "LISTER L.H.I HYDRAULIC REVERSING GEARBOX" on it and as fas as I know has not been serviced or lubricated for at least 8 years.

 

Must admit I use the terms "Thrash" and "Slam" partly for emphasis as I am an Mechanical Engineer by education and do have some affinity for moving parts!

 

Q

[PhilR]

I've just noticed you mention 3 x 4" aluminium ducting.

 

When aluminium ducting is used on SR2's, 2 x 6" ducting is normally used. This is slightly below the Lister recommendations of 60 sq ins for outlet ducts and 78 sq ins for inlets, but it is common practice on the canals and seems to work OK.

 

According to my arithmetic each 4" duct has a cross section of 12.5 sq ins and each 6" duct has a cross section of 28.2 sq ins. But when the trunking is longer than 6 feet allowances have to be made and your long 4" duct through the cabin would probably only count as approx 6 sq ins.This gives you a total cross section of 31 sq ins which does seem inadequate, even though the LR is a smaller engine than the SR.

 

But, having said the above, the LR2 in Brian has presumably performed OK for many years? It will probably be worth checking out before Spring and also a good clean of the cooling fins on the cylinder barrels.

 

I don't think you mentioned cooling (inlet) air ducts. Does the boat have any? They might be inadequate too.

 

Do you have an oil pressure gauge on Brian? In the absence of other instruments they can give a good indication of if and when the engine is getting too hot.

[QDos]

Hi - have now had a few days cruising since :

 

• Replacing all battered and bent Alu ducting
• Changing the Oil and filling to the correct level
• Extending the air inlet with 2" dia SS pipe to a "fresh air" part of the engine bay

 

Conclusions : Sounds quiet , much less black smoke , more power - even managed 3.8 mph on a straight bit of the cut !! - the good news.

 

The bad news is that the engine is still running hot with the engine bay smoking after a few hours continuous motoring and there is still a power advantage gained with occasional forward /reverse of the throttle (not convinced it's leaves).

 

Following the calcs of PhilR - at the engine end I have a short steel box bolted to the cylinder head that has aprox 6" of steel pipe 100mm dia that splits into 3 x 100mm dia alu ducts , 2 of these go at right angles through vents to the outside - min vent dia = 50 cm 2 each and the third vent down the cabin in a box section of around 45cm 2. This gives a total area of vent of approx 145cm2 or 22.5" sq in old money - even less than PhilR's 31" sq and probably the reason for my cooling problem.

I have never been one for believing that the people that originally design things get them right and suspect that Brian (named after the magic roundabout snail) has always had a bit of a speed problem and is only happy at < 3 mph.

 

Next move is to clean the fan and cylinder heads if I can get to them, as I suspect they will be clogged up with leaves etc..... unless anyone has other suggestions on how to keep cool ?

 

Q

[Stilllearning]

Some thoughts for you :

The dipsticks on Listers can have very confusing markings, so refer to the manual for the right volume of oil, then note where that comes up the dipstick.

Cleaning the cooling fins on the cylinders is well worth it, but a bit of a faff - lots of sharp edges on the casings apart from anything else.

Cooling ducting on the boats I worked on were cloth, fixed on square brackets on the engine and leading to the outside world on the hull side, about 6" x 4" roughly?

Understandably you are still sceptical about leaves on the prop - try cruising along at a low rev setting, looking back at the prop wash, then slip it into neutral for a few seconds, then back into gear. Once you are used to the way the wash comes out of the back of your boat, you will know just by looking if there is anything on the prop, be that a bit of weed, a plastic bag or leaves. We have just got a new boat, and on the cruise home I spent a while looking back to learn how this boat's prop wash should look.

Good luck.

[PhilR]

Hi - have now had a few days cruising since :

 

• Replacing all battered and bent Alu ducting
• Changing the Oil and filling to the correct level
• Extending the air inlet with 2" dia SS pipe to a "fresh air" part of the engine bay

 

Conclusions : Sounds quiet , much less black smoke , more power - even managed 3.8 mph on a straight bit of the cut !! - the good news.

 

The bad news is that the engine is still running hot with the engine bay smoking after a few hours continuous motoring and there is still a power advantage gained with occasional forward /reverse of the throttle (not convinced it's leaves).

 

Following the calcs of PhilR - at the engine end I have a short steel box bolted to the cylinder head that has aprox 6" of steel pipe 100mm dia that splits into 3 x 100mm dia alu ducts , 2 of these go at right angles through vents to the outside - min vent dia = 50 cm 2 each and the third vent down the cabin in a box section of around 45cm 2. This gives a total area of vent of approx 145cm2 or 22.5" sq in old money - even less than PhilR's 31" sq and probably the reason for my cooling problem.

I have never been one for believing that the people that originally design things get them right and suspect that Brian (named after the magic roundabout snail) has always had a bit of a speed problem and is only happy at < 3 mph.

 

Next move is to clean the fan and cylinder heads if I can get to them, as I suspect they will be clogged up with leaves etc..... unless anyone has other suggestions on how to keep cool ?

 

Q

 

It does look like your outlet ducting might be of inadequate cross section. If the engine is overheating in this cold weather, you will obviously have a bigger problem in summer .

Before doing any major alterations it might be worth disconnecting the outlet ducting and try a run with the deck-boards removed.

 

Some thoughts for you :

The dipsticks on Listers can have very confusing markings, so refer to the manual for the right volume of oil, then note where that comes up the dipstick.

Cleaning the cooling fins on the cylinders is well worth it, but a bit of a faff - lots of sharp edges on the casings apart from anything else.

Cooling ducting on the boats I worked on were cloth, fixed on square brackets on the engine and leading to the outside world on the hull side, about 6" x 4" roughly?

Understandably you are still sceptical about leaves on the prop - try cruising along at a low rev setting, looking back at the prop wash, then slip it into neutral for a few seconds, then back into gear. Once you are used to the way the wash comes out of the back of your boat, you will know just by looking if there is anything on the prop, be that a bit of weed, a plastic bag or leaves. We have just got a new boat, and on the cruise home I spent a while looking back to learn how this boat's prop wash should look.

Good luck.

 

The sump capacities of most of the LR2 and SR2's are both 9½ pints (5.4 litres).

[QDos]

Thanks - no trips planned in Jan so should be able to get at the fan etc ..... will check how much oil I have put in allthough pumping it out is very difficult as even the smallest tube in the sump pump kit wont go down the dipstick pipe . I work with comp air and got a small bore pipe for instrument air that did the trick. Dont have deck boards only a 14" X 6" cover that I remove when cruising anyway , a local marine engineer recomended cutting out the deck and side panels and putting in more deck hatches to get access to the engine.

 

Is it possible to retrofit an oil pressure gauge to this engine ?

 

Q