STERLING ALTERNATOR TO BATTERY CHARGER

[chris w]

Another way of checking the effect of the alternator controller for those who already have one fitted is to insert a switch into the FIELD CONTROL wire that runs between the controller and the regulator (the wire you had to add).

 

Monitor the charging current with the switch closed and the switch open. Closed, the charging system is using the controller and open it's using the internal regulator. There is no danger of damaging the controller or the alternator by using this switch. (It's basically what the internal regulator is doing internally).

 

Chris

Edited November 14, 2006 by chris w

[Gibbo]

Gibbo

 

Your assertion that internal alternator regulators don't have temperature compensation is certainly not correct for my regulator. I just took a spare regulator for an Isuzu 80A alternator (A127 type) and connected an indicator bulb across the brushes. I then applied an increasing voltage from a power supply and monitored the voltage at which the indicator just extinguished. I also monitored the temperature of the regulator.

 

At room temperature the cut-out voltage was 14.6 volts. I then applied a hot air gun until the regulator case temperature was 60degC. In between this temperature and room temperature the regulator cut-out voltage dropped until at around 60degC it was down to 13.4v.

 

The A127 type alternator is one of the most ubiquitous around so this is not some kind of esoteric regulator. Certainly this internal regulator would never charge the batteries like an external controller despite its having a high nominal charge voltage at room temperature

 

Chris

 

"Temperature compensation"" adjusts the charge voltage according to the temperature of the batteries.

 

"Alternator temperature protection" reduces alternator output when the alternator gets too hot.

 

The two are *completely* unrelated. You are clearly confusing the two.

 

Internal regulators have alternator temperature protection. They do *not* have temperature compensation. They do *not* adjust the charge voltage according to the battery temperature. Many alternator controllers do.

 

Very few external regs have alternator temperature protection. This is why they *sometimes* burn the alternator out.

 

I have never said anything different.

 

Gibbo

 

you forgot to switch your emoticons back on

 

My Sterling one has a battery AND an alternator temperature sensor.

 

That doesn't negate my statement that most of them don't. The sterling is a rarity.

 

Gibbo

 

Gibbo,

Thanks for that, it does sound like (in my specific case) sticking to the 160a on my domestic bank and the 50 on my starter/bow thruster will be the way to go. Will save me a few bob and keep things simple.

Les

 

I think so. You just need to check the charge voltage from the alternator as standard.

 

And if it's low then an external regulator would be a better bet than the alternator to battery charger (assuming you can handle the more complicated installation).

 

Gibbo

 

Hi Pete,

Good advice I think. My boat is on order but not due to be delivered till next Aug so can't measure anything !! I'm just trying to finalise the electrical spec for the fit out currently.

Not sure if anyone out there has a Shire 65 that could measure the aternator output ? (I know Ledgard have sold some of these engines)

Les

 

I did it on a few at Nantwich Canal Centre (dealers for Barrus/Shire - I was based there for 3 years). That's where my figures came from.

 

14.4 or 14.6 volts. 150 amps when cold, very quickly falling to 100 amps once warmed up.

 

Gibbo

[blackrose]

This I have to take slight issue with. A normal external controller will actually do a better job.

 

Where the alternator to battery charger scores is in two places.

 

A) It's easier to fit.

It can be fitted to installations that will not permit a "normal" alternator controller to be fitted.

 

It's performance is nowhere near as good as a "normal" external alternator controller.

 

And no I'm not prepared to go into why on here.

 

Gibbo

 

I didn't realise that, I thought they did the same thing.

 

Anyway, perhaps I was thinking of amps not volts when I said the alternator won't give peak output for very long. Will an external alternator regulator make a difference here? Would it increase the amp output & charging efficiency of my 70amp alternator even though I am already getting 14.2v?

Edited November 14, 2006 by blackrose

[chris w]

Gibbo

 

You're the one who seems to be missing the point. If the internal regulator reduces its charging voltage as it warms up then it can't be charging the batteries as effectively as an external controller.

 

After all, I was only heating it to about 60degC. Alternators can and do run perfectly happily at higher temperatures than these so, even at the fairly modest temperature of 60C, my internal regulator would be useless at charging the batteries in any reasonable time.

 

It would definitely seem sensible of course to get an external controller with alternator and battery temperature monitoring and protection.

 

 

"Temperature compensation"" adjusts the charge voltage according to the temperature of the batteries.

 

"Alternator temperature protection" reduces alternator output when the alternator gets too hot.

 

The two are *completely* unrelated. You are clearly confusing the two.

 

You're just being deliberately awkward and childish because I've poked a hole in your argument. You know exactly what I mean by temperature compensation when I'm testing an alternator controller. I'll spell it out for you in case you're not sure. The alternator's internal regulator compensates for a rising alternator temperature by reducing the charging voltage which in turn will reduce the charging current which will reduce the tempertaure of the alternator. Hence, certainly for the widely-used A127 alternator regulator, it won't charge the batteries as effectively as an external controller.

 

I think you're letting your commercial interests interfere with your ability to be disinterested.

 

Chris

Edited November 14, 2006 by chris w

[Gibbo]

I didn't realise that, I thought they did the same thing.

 

Anyway, perhaps I was thinking of amps not volts when I said the alternator won't give peak output for very long. Will an external alternator regulator make a difference here? Would it increase the charging efficiency of my 70amp alternator even though I am already getting 14.2v?

 

It will increase it marginally in that a slightly higher charge voltage will produce a slightly higher charge current. Obvious really. But in this case the difference will be marginal.

 

But as mentioned in another post sometimes the alternator can be burnt out with external controllers. This problem is *nowhere* near as common as some people make out. I think I've probably come across it twice in 20 years and several hundred (maybe thousand, who knows?) boats.

 

If you email me off list I'll show you a cheaper and better way

 

Gibbo

 

Gibbo

 

You're the one who seems to be missing the point. If the internal regulator reduces its charging voltage as it warms up then it can't be charging the batteries as effectively as an external controller.

 

And the external controller thus overrides the internal temperature protection thus putting the alternator at risk, very clever!

 

After all, I was only heating it to about 60degC. Alternators can and do run perfectly happily at higher temperatures than these so, even at the fairly modest temperature of 60C, my internal regulator would be useless at charging the batteries in any reasonable time.

 

You were heating the *regulator* to 60degC. What temperature do you think the stator would be at to get the reg that hot? 100? 120? 140? higher?

 

It would definitely seem sensible of course to get an external controller with alternator and battery temperature monitoring and protection.

 

Indeed. And then the external controller can reduce the charge voltage/current (to protect the alternator) in exactly the same way as the internal regulator so what's the point?

 

It will sink in eventually with everyone that in 99% of cases external controllers are a complete and utter waste of money. They weren't 10 years ago. But this isn't 10 years ago. This is today.

 

Why on earth do you think your mate Charlie went to all the time and trouble to develop the alternator to battery charger?

 

Because he knows the reality about alternator controllers. It wasn't because he ws bored!

 

Gibbo

[JohnO]

supposed to be working so just a quick one.....

Another point alot of people are not aware of is the alternator needs to spin at at least 4000 RPM for the digital amplifer to "kick in"

SO

a engine ticking over

a slow revvin vintage engine

or

a pulley ratio of less than 3:1

means the active part of charger will not work

basically

with a 3:1 pulley ratio your engine would need to be turning over at least 1333.3333333333 RPM for the charging unit to produce the managed fast charge

 

 

John

 

To whose alternator controller are you referring? The Sterling one doesn't need a "kick".

 

Alternators themselves only need a high rev "kick" if the alternator charging light becomes disconnected or blows. This light provides some initial current to the alternator rotor in order to magnetise it and thereby allow it to start producing output. Once the engine starts the alternator then provides its own rotor feed.

 

If the light fails then some alternators will start producing output at high revs due to some residual magnetism in the rotor. Once "kicked in" like this the alternator will then run normally at all revs until stopped again.

 

Chris

 

I refer to the [sterling ABC] [Alternator to Battery charger] [Digital Advanced Alternator Regulator] prehaps "kick" is the wrong expression BUT

i am talking about the the controller not the the alternator.

"Until the alternator is spinning at 4000 RPM the Digital Split power amplifier will not be enabled" [kick in]

that is a quote from Mr Sterling himself.

until then there is no management to the domestic bank so the point i am trying to make is basically unless you are cruising at 1333 RPM+ this unit will not charge your batteries any more efficiently SO running your engine whilst moored is not going to help

[chris w]

Gibbo

 

By fitting a diode in the field circuit presumably, which then needs to be monitored carefully because it won't switch itself back to normal when the charge is finished.

 

Now, who would sell one of those monitors that could switch the diode out when done by checking the voltage..... Smartgauge isn't it?

Edited November 14, 2006 by chris w

[Gibbo]

Gibbo

 

By fitting a diode in the field circuit presumably, which then needs to be monitored carefully because it won't switch itself back to normal when the charge is finished.

 

Now, who would sell one of those monitors that could switch the diode out when done by checking the voltage..... Smartgauge isn't it?

 

The diode doesn't need to be switched out. Charging batteries at 14.6 all day from an engine is fine. I charge mine *much* higher than this. They last longer, they get a better charge, they don't sulphate up.

 

If this isn't the case why aren''t all the vehicle batteries worldwide being killed within a matter of months.

 

Too many people are living in the dark ages with batteries. The chemistry of batteries has changed *drastically* in the last 10 years.

 

It's time to read up on the subject at todays state of the art, not 20 years ago.

 

Gibbo

 

Gibbo

 

By fitting a diode in the field circuit presumably, which then needs to be monitored carefully because it won't switch itself back to normal when the charge is finished.

 

Now, who would sell one of those monitors that could switch the diode out when done by checking the voltage..... Smartgauge isn't it?

 

And if you think I am on here to try to sell stuff you are *sorely* mistaken.

 

As others have pointed out many times on various news groups and forums, even if every narrowboater in the country bought all their equipment form the same supplier it still wouldn't be enough to keep that one supplier in business. The market simply isn't even a drop in the ocean compared to other markets.

 

It's a sad reality that if the inland waterways market disappeared hardly any suppliers of electrical equipment would even notice. It really is so insignificant.

 

I am here because I am into boats, canals and electrics. No other reason.

 

I find your post offensive in the extreme.

 

Gibbo

[chris w]

Gibbo

 

I find your post offensive in the extreme.

I think you're either being very disingenuous here or else you've led a very sheltered life Edited November 14, 2006 by chris w

[Yoda]

Gibbo

 

I think you're either being very disingenuous here or else you've led a very sheltered life

 

Stop it you two. Keep this on an engineering level otherwise I shall smack hands.

[chris w]

JohnO

 

"Until the alternator is spinning at 4000 RPM the Digital Split power amplifier will not be enabled"

 

Can you point me to the manual where that appears please as I've looked through the Alternator Controller handbook and the one for the Alternator-to-Battery charger and I can't see it.

 

thanks

 

chris

[chris w]

Yoda

 

I love it when you're dominant

[JohnO]

JohnO

Can you point me to the manual where that appears please as I've looked through the Alternator Controller handbook and the one for the Alternator-to-Battery charger and I can't see it.

 

thanks

 

chris

 

 

I have not seen this written anywhere, Mr Stirling told me personally.

[chris w]

Hi John

 

I'll give them a call as that doesn't make sense to me. I'm not doubting what you say, I just would like to know the context.

 

1. A vast number of narrowboats could never get their alternators up to 4000rpm as they would need to be running their engines at over 2000rpm.

 

2. Why is it necessary electronically?

 

The only reason I know for ever having to run an alternator that hard is if the charge light has blown and you have no imediate replacement. The high revs will usually cause the alternator to self-start due to residual magnetism.

 

Chris

[DHutch]

Too many people are living in the dark ages with batteries. The chemistry of batteries has changed *drastically* in the last 10 years.

Can you clarify exactly *how* the chemistry of wet (flooded cell) lead acids has changed in the last ten year?

- Really,i would be genuial interested in your comments on this?

 

 

Daniel

[MICHAEL SANDERSON]

Hi Whammy

I've recently fitted this unit to an Isuzu 42 with twin 70 amp alternators. It's easy to fit, works well and the Sterling price list has a very easy to understand wiring diagram for all its products.

 

Can anyone tell me how I would know if one alternator failed, as they are connected together.

 

I also fitted a Sterling 20 amp Pro Digital charger for use with shore power at the moorings.

 

Mike

[John Orentas]

Hi Whammy

I've recently fitted this unit to an Isuzu 42 with twin 70 amp alternators. It's easy to fit, works well and the Sterling price list has a very easy to understand wiring diagram for all its products.

 

Can anyone tell me how I would know if one alternator failed, as they are connected together.

 

I also fitted a Sterling 20 amp Pro Digital charger for use with shore power at the moorings.

 

Mike

 

 

Hi Michael.

 

I assume you have fitted one of those clever little units that take the output from your two alternators and combine the two.

 

Ask matron or one of those nice very big gentlemen in the white coats, they will tell you all about it so don't worry about a thing. When they bring you your nice new jacket put it on and see how it looks but don't let them fasten the straps at the back.

[MICHAEL SANDERSON]

John - I was posting to Whammy and I was asking for help

 

I think you are just taking the p*ss

 

Mike

[DHutch]

Basicaly, what john is trying to say is, its very difficult to tell at all.

- And in his slightly "humourous" way, he's making hes option that conecting the two alternators together in the first place, is a mistake. Which, tbh, i agree with really.

 

 

 

Daniel

[MICHAEL SANDERSON]

Yeah - thanks Daniel - It was my first post on the forum after lurking for 18 months and it wasn't the answer I was looking for at that time of morning!

 

Mike

[Sir Nibble]

that is a quote from Mr Sterling himself.

Yea, and he told me that "An alternator is only a single phase device"

so is he a fool or a liar?

I reckon that if someone were to post that "Alternator X has a regulator that does Y and I know because I am chief of design for the manufacturer" then someone else (probably half a dozen someone elses) would say "Well I saw an article in "Narrowboat nobber" magazine that contradicts that, so you're wrong".

When someone looks for an answer straight from the horses mouth, it doesn't help when the horses can't agree and are stirred up by donkeys pretending to be horses.

We need a proper study carried out into narrowboat charging, I am personally convinced that the search for Amps to boost Ampere hours is futile since these external regulators are mostly doing buggerall until the engine revs have you nudging the speed limit, and often a 150A alternator will produce LESS than the 50A unit it replaces because it is operating far below its design speed. I would like to see a little less over driving of machines with higher field input and some effort applied to getting more REAL power in through the pulley, unlike Gibbo, I have seen DOZENS of heat damaged alternators on yachts where engine usage patterns are somewhat different and the alternator is driven fast enough to really make use of the boost, and is frequently whipped to death as a result.

Snibble now steps back and awaits the coming of the inquisition to burn him for his heresy.

[John Orentas]

I would not criticise Mr Sterling or his company, from what people say on here and other places he seems to treat his customers very well. Having said they I would not speak of him in the reverential tones that others do. After all he does sell some very dodgy equipment, not least this 'Connect all your alternators together and see them die together' contraption. That is the product of a diseased brain.

 

We found out too recently that all or most of what he sells are badged units made in the far east so we don't really know to what degree he is in control of things.

 

*If he did say an alternator is a single phase device that really would be surprising, even I know they are fundamentally a nominal 100 volt 3 phase job.

 

*Quote see Snibble.

Edited November 15, 2006 by John Orentas

[Sir Nibble]

If he did say an alternator is a single phase device that really would be surprising,

Maybe he didn't, maybe I'M the liar!!

I think he didn't expect me to know any better and was just arguing his corner.

[chris w]

We found out too recently that all or most of what he sells are badged units made in the far east

It's not difficult to find this out because Sterling state it in their catalogue.

 

According to Sterling, it's nothing to do with labour rates but everything to do apparently with the price of components in Europe, which are twice the price of the same components in the Far East from where Europe is sourced mainly.

 

Chris

[TeeELL]

Not at all sure that I should be sticking my head above the parapet in this thread but - here goes:

 

Lesd - you ask if anyone could measure the output on a Shire 65. You really need to identify the alternator that is due to be fitted and the anticipated RPM at which it will run. Armed with that information anyone with a similar set-up could provide your answer whatever the engine - although it could only ever be a guide - I guess.

 

General - I've read through this thread and all the technical stuff has wizzed over my head although I'm sure the 'main players' have enjoyed the joust. So here I am, in the same position as several others, wondering if combining my alternators is a good or a bad idea. Trouble is the people who suggested it to me have the system fitted to their boats and are very happy with arrangement and I am just the dummy who thinks - 'that makes sense, using the otherwise wasted energy from the starter alternator'. The dummy will now go and sit in the corner and reflect - probably conclude that the 'leave well alone/K.I.S.S principle' is the way ahead (saves money too!!)