Day boat, license, and Riperian Rights

[Guest]

It seems though (subject to confirmation) there may be an exception associated with this specific location.

 

If so yes I wish I lived there too.

[Paul C]

It seems though (subject to confirmation) there may be an exception associated with this specific location.

 

If so yes I wish I lived there too.

 

Correction - the exception exists for his neighbour's house - it remains to be seen whether the OP enjoys the same exception. I'd re-contact the solicitor and ask the neighbour for all the relevant background material which explains their situation.

[Guest]

Correction - the exception exists for his neighbour's house - it remains to be seen whether the OP enjoys the same exception. I'd re-contact the solicitor and ask the neighbour for all the relevant background material which explains their situation.

No correction required, I said 'specific' location meaning his specific section of the river front.

Edited September 3, 2013 by The Dog House

[bozlite]

No correction required, I said 'specific' location meaning his specific section of the river front.

As far as I understand it, no exception has been identified. He has a river frontage on which, as is completely normal, he is allowed to have a mooring without paying CRT. I don't see that there is any reason to assume he might not have to pay for a licence if he keeps a boat on that mooring.

[alan_fincher]

So you need to research whether the navigation rights extend across the full width of the river where you are, or whether your bank side lies outside of that. If it is the former, then you will be obliged to license the boat and pay for mooring (nominally a half rate of the rate set for the nearest long term moorings CRT operate - and how that works since the auction system started I have yet to ask).

 

Just as it used to Dominic.

 

There is still a published price list for every CRT permanent mooring site on the network, and this is how anybody is charged if either.....

 

1) They have held a mooring from before the introduction of Tenders and then Auctions

2) They have completed a three year contract for a mooring won by tender or auction. (Despite the rather wild claim that auctions set a fair market rate, after three years you revert to what you would have paid anyway, had they not introduced them )

 

So in general the EOG rate is based on half the cost for the nearest unserviced CRT towpath moorings, as you say, and that rate is available in the published price lists. But it is "based on", and if you ring CRT they will give you a number, but doubling up that number may not actually be an exact match for any of their nearby tow-path moorings. I have no idea quite why, and, when I asked, nor had the person I asked!

[Guest]

As far as I understand it, no exception has been identified. He has a river frontage on which, as is completely normal, he is allowed to have a mooring without paying CRT. I don't see that there is any reason to assume he might not have to pay for a licence if he keeps a boat on that mooring.

Hence I used 'may'

 

I do think it would be great though if it turns out it doesn't need to pay either....

[bozlite]

Hence I used 'may'

I do think it would be great though if it turns out it doesn't need to pay either....

Not having to pay for a mooring would be good enough for me!

[arpeeuk]

However, the River Kennet is different - it is an older pre-canal river navigation and CRT only have rights over the navigation, not the whole of the river. I know for example that at Greenham lock, where the lock cottage owners also have a set of moorings on a weir stream of the Kennet, that they are outside of CRT's jurisdiction, and do not have to pay for mooring rights or have the craft licensed (although if the craft want to cruise they obviously need to buy a licence to do that).

Hi Rob,

 

I know that this is correct at Kintbury too. The people whose houses have gardens down to the water own the river and do not need licences or need to pay mooring fees to C&RT. This right is jealously guarded by the owners and C&RT are sent packing with fleas in their ears if they try to enquire about the status of boats moored on this water.

 

It might be worth knocking on a few doors and seeing if one of the owners can assist further as C&RT may be trying to levy charges when they are not required.

 

Rik

[Rob S]

Gingerbeer, the boat is 15ft.

 

It is completly open and has no overnight capabilities. So realisically it has a range of about 2 hours from our house. As you can imagine, i'm a bit loathed to pay for a license that vovers the whole of the uk, when i have no chance of using 99% of it.

 

I would argue that they don't maintain my section of river, because i'm responsible for it. They seem to want it both ways, the owners to maintain the river frontage, and then pay CART to do it aswell

 

I have a driving license that i paid for once. I would argue that the river license is actually a tax. It certainly seems more like road tax than a driving license.

[FadeToScarlet]

You have a very aptly named boat!

 

I've always idly wondered, if CRT claim to own the water, and you own the bed of the river, could you charge them for storing their water on your property?

[Phil Ambrose]

So it seems the jury is still out on the mooring fees but I cannot see that a license is not required, it seems illogical to think that a whole bunch of people (hundreds?) Own a river,surely not?.

Phil

[EmmaB]

The true situation is very likely that CRT can charge you for a licence to put your boat in the navigable channel. Outside of that, if you don't navigate you don't need a license. It's certainly the case on the river Avon navigation at the other end. That also allows you to erect structures outside of the navigable channel.

 

However CRT have decided they will only sell you a yearly license if you use the navigable channel.. Of the legality of that I have no idea.

And mooring fees cannot be charged to riparian owners.

[mark99]

As mentioned before, if you dangle a rod and go fishing off your riverbank, you will have to buy an Angling Licence (from the EA) too. They are however, available by the day, week, year.

 

You could, if your frontage was long enough, rent it out to anglers say on a "day ticket" basis - and those anglers would need to buy a licence off the EA as well as pay you for your day ticket.

Edited September 3, 2013 by mark99

[bozlite]

Gingerbeer, the boat is 15ft.

It is completly open and has no overnight capabilities. So realisically it has a range of about 2 hours from our house. As you can imagine, i'm a bit loathed to pay for a license that vovers the whole of the uk, when i have no chance of using 99% of it.

I would argue that they don't maintain my section of river, because i'm responsible for it. They seem to want it both ways, the owners to maintain the river frontage, and then pay CART to do it aswell

I have a driving license that i paid for once. I would argue that the river license is actually a tax. It certainly seems more like road tax than a driving license.

So if you don't go very far in your car, you don't pay "road tax"?

[NigelMoore]

Between you and Dominic M, you have a decent grasp on the situation.

 

For comfort on the mooring rights, you don’t have to rely on a neighbour’s letter; BW publicly state the position correctly enough in their EoG Informative which you should keep a copy of –

http://www.cutweb.org.uk/bw/eogmooring.pdf

The bit relevant to you is:

 

“2. Natural parts of rivers managed by BW but which are not owned by it:

 

Where BW is navigational authority but does not own the bed of the river, a boater needs a licence from BW to cruise the river. However, the boater does not need to pay BW a mooring fee as well because BW does not own the river bed. As mentioned earlier common law rules of riparian ownership usually apply.”

 

There’s some bad law in there, but not so far as it affects your position re: mooring.

 

As to whether you need a boat licence as well [as the above informative claims], depends, as Dominic M has correctly said, on whether your boat would lie outside of the main navigational channel. Forget the comments of everyone who says otherwise.

 

To finesse the point though, insofar as the waters of a river fall within CART’s jurisdiction, the jurisdiction extends bank to bank, it’s just that there are limits to what the jurisdiction can extend to – you would be liable to the byelaws for example.

 

Depending upon the nature of your stretch of the river, it may not even matter whether a moored boat extended into the navigation channel or not – you would still not need a licence/certificate.

 

You should note that on the natural rivers, whether ‘canalised’ or not, that fell within the BW regime, the original public rights of navigation still persist, so that you only need to register a boat if your particular stretch is listed in Schedule 1 of the BW Act 1971, as added to in 1974 and 1995. The Avon is, from the tail of Hanham Lock to the tail of the bottom lock at Bath – but the Kennett is not.

 

Even if your boat was on the listed sections, the registration requirement [for what they call a Rivers Only Certificate] only applies once you leave the mooring and enter the main navigational channel –

 

Part II PLEASURE BOATS 4(1) “This part of the Act applies to the main navigable channel of each of the inland waterways specified in Schedule 1 to this Act which channel so specified is in this Act referred to as a ‘river waterway’.” – and – 4(2) “The description of any waterway contained in the said schedule shall be read subject to any order made by the Secretary of State for further defining the waterway by reference to a map.”

 

I can assure you that at no time since passage of the Act until now, has the Secretary of State ever further defined the navigation channel by any such maps.

 

So, - nice buy, enjoy; but do take up Dominic M’s advice to do your research as thoroughly as possible, it’s always the little bits of subsequent legislation you are not aware of that can trip you up. Invest in the K&A Acts and read very carefully along with his other suggestions.

 

p.s. IF you did in fact need to register your boat to move into the navigational channel from a section listed under the terms of the 1971 Act, then as at 1971 there were restrictions on the number of times you could apply for a short period registration:

 

“Provided in any one year there shall not be granted in respect of any pleasure boat more than one such certificate for a period of one month, or more than two such certificates fro a period of 15 days or more than 6 such certificates for a period of one day.”

 

That could cramp your style; I have not checked on the latest statutory restrictions if any in fact exist, but you would want to check, if they were applicable and you wanted to go that route – otherwise you are at the mercy of people who just assure you what they can do when it might not be the case at all.

 

[Rob S]

So if you don't go very far in your car, you don't pay "road tax"?

That's not the point is it. I pay 120 pounds road tax a year, and use my car every day. I'm questionning why i need to pay over £400 a year to store my boat on my property, when i should be able to treat it as a day cruiser and just buy day licenses.

 

I'm sure if the gov gave people the option to pay for road tax daily, many people would!

Nigel, thanks for that very detailed answer, I noticed you wrote on other forums anout riperian rights. Do you know if i have a right to navigate the river using these rights? As i said before the EA seem very keen to mention the rights when it involves doing things for them, but there is very little mention of the right to navigate the river. I've seen several sources mentioning common law and the right to navigate but where might i find more precise information?

Correction - the exception exists for his neighbour's house - it remains to be seen whether the OP enjoys the same exception. I'd re-contact the solicitor and ask the neighbour for all the relevant background material which explains their situation.

We would be covered the same exception

You have a very aptly named boat!

I've always idly wondered, if CRT claim to own the water, and you own the bed of the river, could you charge them for storing their water on your property?

Yes it is. I named it that as buying it caused so many headaches between me and the other half!

 

I did wonder about that, you have to ask where does it end? There water over my land, my boat on there water over my land, there air over my boat over there water over my land....it goes on.

 

Still maintain that they don't own the water. No one does. I'm allowed to abstract something like 30000 litres a year or something. I don't need to ask there permission, so am i stealling there water?

[bozlite]

when i should be able to treat it as a day cruiser and just buy day licenses.

Should be able to? You mean, you would like to be able to ... There are lots of things we'd all like to be able to avoid paying, but there you go ....

[Beaker]

Aaarrghhhh!!

 

I cannae take it any more!

 

<pedant>

 

It's "ripArian!"

 

</pedant>

[Rob S]

Aaarrghhhh!!

I cannae take it any more!

<pedant>

It's "ripArian!"

</pedant>

Thanks for the correction. That's how little info i could find....not even how to spell it properly. And apple don't include in the ipad dictionary for autocorrection!

Should be able to? You mean, you would like to be able to ... There are lots of things we'd all like to be able to avoid paying, but there you go ....

I mean i should be able to because it is on my property. Just because a charity has decided i owe them £400+ per year to keep a boat on water they don't own, over my own land.

[mark99]

I mean i should be able to because it is on my property. Just because a charity has decided i owe them £400+ per year to keep a boat on water they don't own, over my own land.

Ok lets do a deal - you pay for the flood defences and maintenance of navigation that I don't want to through my taxation and I don't live near any river/canal. In fact I live 500 foot above sea level and subsidise those that choose to live next to a river.

 

You have had some real good advice and time given here for free. You need now to arm yourself with this and do your own further site specific research.

Edited September 3, 2013 by mark99

[Paul C]

I mean i should be able to because it is on my property. Just because a charity has decided i owe them £400+ per year to keep a boat on water they don't own, over my own land.

 

Keeping (mooring) the boat there is free (because you own the land). Ideal if you simply want the boat moored there, but not go anywhere (some boaters seem to do this). If you want to use the boat for NAVIGATION, then you need the CRT licence.

[Rob S]

Ok, thanks for all the great feedback everyone. It's been really useful to get such a wide range of opinions. I shall carry on researching and see what i can dig up.

[Rob S]

Ok lets do a deal - you pay for the flood defences and maintenance of navigation that I don't want to through my taxation and I don't live near any river/canal. In fact I live 500 foot above sea level and subsidise those that choose to live next to a river.

 

You have had some real good advice and time given here for free. You need now to arm yourself with this and do your own further site specific research.

I do help maintain the navigation, because i'm required to keep my section of river clear of debris and obstruction. Me and my neighbours do a hell of a lot more along this stretch than CART, as i'm sure people who have tried zig zagging there way through all the overgrown trees will tell you! I also have to live with the fact that we may get flooded, and have to pay huge home insurance costs due to the proximity to the river, so it's not all plain sailing (no pun intended)

[Phil Ambrose]

Still reckon you need a license (insurance?)

Phil

[Rob S]

I may well do. I do have insurance though.

 

Although do i need a BSS? The boat is brand new, so I don't understand if i need a BSS?

I did find this while googling

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2011/889/pdfs/uksiem_20110889_en.pdf

 

I'm about 1km upstream from high bridge, so i am literally right at the end of the kennet and avon, before it becomes the thames. This is the issue, in that i could get a CART yearly license, but i would still need day licenses for the thames!! And a gold licence would be over 500 quid!