OK - a bowthruster would have helped ... a lot.

[JohnOnTheWey]

I took the boat out for a troll down the Thames last Sunday. Lovely morning, blue skies, no rain and a gentle breeze. When I returned to the marina, the wind was gusting 4-5 and black clouds were gathering.

My mooring location means I have to execute a 180 turn to drive in bow first, between my home pontoon and the neighbouring broad-beam GRP cruiser. I decided, for a number of reasons (nicer view, better TV and WiFi signals etc) to try to reverse into my allotted slot. I tried a number of times to judge how far the wind would blow the bow around during the time it would take me to complete the reversing manouver, and I have to admit I failed utterly. (Wind was hitting me square on from the right, my pontoon's on the left and my neighbour's cruiser is on my right).

I was single-handed, unfortunately, but that all changed when the inevitable happened and I hit another boat (not a plastic-shattering happening, fortunately - the boat I hit was a steel wide-beam narrowboat and the contact was made quite gracefully) and the owner popped his head out of the hatch and asked if I wanted a hand. I gratefully accepted, but even with his help we couldn't avoid the effect of the wind blowing the bow out of alignment (which meant a blip of forward to try to bring it round, thus putting the stern out of alignment etc. etc.) We finally settled for stopping at 90 degrees to the mooring pontoon and hauling the boat into the berth by dint of brute force and ignorance.

I felt a bit depressed by the episode, but things were brought into perspective about 5 minutes after I finally tied-up. The heavens had opened and the wind was really howling, but I could still hear the scream of over-revved engines and desperate bursts of bowthruster as the owner of half-a-million squids worth of cruiser tried to get onto his mooring about 80 yards away from me. After quarter of an hour or so, he actually gave up and fled to the wide open spaces of the river to wait until things calmed down a bit.

 

I'm not trying to re-ignite the old old debate, by the way. Just relating a recent experience.

 

John

 

ps. Any hints and tips most gratefully received.

[blackrose]

Here's my tip: http://www.vetus.nl/images/albums/catimg/lg/31.jpg

 

Seriously though, I generally avoid going out at all if it looks like it's going to be windy - with or without a bowthruster. I know a lot of people do and it can be fine chugging along the river or canal, but it's the close quarter handling where you get into trouble. In his motor barge handling book Edward Burrel says something along the lines of: If you think of the sides of your boat as sails and then calculate that area in square metres, they're actually pretty large.

Edited October 3, 2006 by blackrose

[Hairy-Neil]

Here's my tip:

 

 

 

 

Read the post......JohnOnTheWey already mentioned a neighbouring moorer with one had had to give up.........

 

If you know what you're doing you can use the wind to your advantage.......ever wondered how it came to be known as a winding hole.....

Edited October 3, 2006 by Hairy-Neil

[Yoda]

Read the post......JohnOnTheWey already mentioned a neighbouring moorer with one had had to give up.........

 

If you know what you're doing you can use the wind to your advantage.......ever wondered how it came to be known as a winding hole.....

 

Take that as a joke I shall!!!!

[Moley]

Take that as a joke I shall!!!!

Wrong you'd be

[blackrose]

Read the post......JohnOnTheWey already mentioned a neighbouring moorer with one had had to give up.........

 

Read my reply... I said that I avoid going out on windy days with or without a bowthruster! The posted picture was just a joke (as the face as well as the start of the next sentence might have indicated), so don't get yer knickers in a twist!

 

Yes, I agree the wind can be used to manouvre if you know what you're doing, but it depends where it's coming from and where you're going. On the other hand, high winds or gales are to nobody's advantage. (Except those with wind turbines!)

Edited October 3, 2006 by blackrose

[Philskey]

Read my reply... I said that I avoid going out on windy days with or without a bowthruster! The posted picture was just a joke (as the face as well as the start of the next sentence might have indicated), so don't get yer knickers in a twist!

 

Yes, I agree the wind can be used to manouvre if you know what you're doing, but it depends where it's coming from and where you're going. On the other hand, high winds or gales are to nobody's advantage. (Except those with wind turbines!)

/quote]

 

I had the opportunity of going out on a boat last weekend with a bow thruster fitted. I was really surprised at how easy it was to manoevre the boat despite strong winds and driving rain. I do not claim to be the best at the tiller as I only have a three week share which is not a lot of practice in a year. One thing is certain my next boat will have one, I'm all for making life easier!

[Bones]

I do so adore the english weather, bright and sunny in the morning with a clear calm air enticing you into the open waters, and then when at your vulnerable moment the wind picks up and the skys open - not only that but I bet the sun promptly came out again once you were soaked!!!!!

 

[gaggle]

I took the boat out for a troll down the Thames last Sunday. Lovely morning, blue skies, no rain and a gentle breeze. When I returned to the marina, the wind was gusting 4-5 and black clouds were gathering.

My mooring location means I have to execute a 180 turn to drive in bow first, between my home pontoon and the neighbouring broad-beam GRP

 

ps. Any hints and tips most gratefully received.

move out of the marina.

the boat to your left and your right will not then block the views,tv signal or wifi signal and you will probably pay less for moorings.

[Noah]

...............at your vulnerable moment the wind picks up and..................

Yeah, like when I’m returning to a pontoon mooring with a sharp turn! I’m getting pretty good at steering in strong winds and towpath mooring by jumping off and getting the centre line quickly fixed (bollards, trees, fat kids) but I still struggle getting the boat into that slot on the marina single-handed. I line the boat up downwind and wait a few seconds to drift into position where a blast of reverse will get me into the mooring slot, easy. Just then the bloody wind dies and I’m stranded yards away looking ridiculous! That’s when I’d give a few grand for a bowthruster! Last week in a gale I did a few locks on a boat with a bowthruster and what a difference. When I get my Dutch barge………

 

Noah

 

 

move out of the marina.

the boat to your left and your right will not then block the views,tv signal or wifi signal and you will probably pay less for moorings.

I'd love to find an online mooring where I wouldn't get broken into every couple of months!

 

Noah

[gaggle]

got to say noah burglury of boats does not seem to be so rife that a boat is broken into every couple of months,across the network maybe but not heard of individual moorings having the problem.

liveaboards less so.

[Neil@CanalVoyagers]

Tips:

 

1) Any boat will naturally lay beam to the wind. This is the 'stable' position for the boat, and when maneuvering, its the one the boat usually wants to return to! Therefore, you can (sometimes) guess what the boat will try to do next and counteract its movement.

 

2) Propellers are optimised to push water forward. On the ascending side of the rotating prop, centrifugal force slings water up into the hull and is deflected sideways, causing sidewards thrust - called 'prop walking'. As a prop is more efficient in forward, this effect is more noticeable. If your prop turns anti-clockwise (from astern) its a left-hand propeller, and will pull the stern to the right in reverse. Of course, the opposite applies to a right-hand prop.

 

3) When reversing, as you are backing up and preparing to put the gear in forward to slow and/or stop the boat, put the helm over hard in the desired direction first. When the gear is put in forward, discharge current over the rudder will simultaneously slow and turn the boat.

 

Combining the use of prop walk and rudder deflected propeller wash is an approach known as 'back and fill', and comes from square-rigger days when ships in close quarters would backwind the sails to go forward.

 

A narrowboat could (potentially) be turned in just over a boat length with this method, but only in the direction that the prop facilitates. A left-hand boat will pull to starboard in reverse and therefore, whenever possible, tight turns should be carried out by making a port turn. The key components are judging timing and momentum.

 

In practice:

 

- Pick a point on the dock where you want the bow to end up (usually a cleat/bollard). Aim a third to a half of a boat length behind it.

- Proceed at a 30 degree angle, at slow speed, in a straight line towards the bollard (as best you can, avoiding obstructions).

- When you are about half a boat length from the dock/pontoon/towpath, swing the helm away from the dock to initiate the turn and simultaneously put the boat in reverse. Prop walk will pull the stern towards the dock. As soon as the boat stops (moving forwards), put the gear in neutral. If everything has gone perfectly, the stern will be swinging a little bit and will gently come to rest against the side.

- Timing, feel and finesse are everything, and so it takes practice on the calmer days! Every boat is different.

- Use 'burps' on the throttle to modulate the approach. The provide good forward momentum without adversely affecting prop walk.

[howardang]

Tips:

 

1) Any boat will naturally lay beam to the wind. This is the 'stable' position for the boat, and when maneuvering, its the one the boat usually wants to return to! Therefore, you can (sometimes) guess what the boat will try to do next and counteract its movement.

 

This of course only aplies to vessels which have a uniform side profile. If they have higher cabins at the back or front then they will weathercock either bow into the wind or vice versa respectively.

 

2) Propellers are optimised to push water forward. On the ascending side of the rotating prop, centrifugal force slings water up into the hull and is deflected sideways, causing sidewards thrust - called 'prop walking'. As a prop is more efficient in forward, this effect is more noticeable. If your prop turns anti-clockwise (from astern) its a left-hand propeller, and will pull the stern to the right in reverse. Of course, the opposite applies to a right-hand prop.

 

Actually, propellers push the water backwards, not forwards, when going ahead and therefore your suggestion about how prop walk (or "transverse thrust" to give it its Sunday name) comes about is not quite correct. The sideways force generated by a propeller is caused because as it rotates the lower blade meets more restistance from the water than the top blade which is near the surface. The top blade dissipates a proportion of its energy by churning the water whereas the lower blade meets more resistance and so has a bigger sideways element in addition to its backwards thrust. This causes the stern to move to starboard with a right handed prop when going ahead, and vice versa with a left handed prop. A good way of thinking about it is to imagine the forces involved if the propeller is only half submerged with the water line across the hub. The lower blade is meeting water restistance while the upper blade has none because it is turning in air. As the boat increases in draft and the prop becomes more and ore submerged the difference in sideways forces is reduced but the lower blades still generate more than the top. This has very little to do with water being deflected from the hull.

 

3) When reversing, as you are backing up and preparing to put the gear in forward to slow and/or stop the boat, put the helm over hard in the desired direction first. When the gear is put in forward, discharge current over the rudder will simultaneously slow and turn the boat.

 

Combining the use of prop walk and rudder deflected propeller wash is an approach known as 'back and fill', and comes from square-rigger days when ships in close quarters would backwind the sails to go forward.

 

I don't think you mean this - if you backwind a sail on a square rigged ship you stop vessel and then go backwards, not forwards.

 

A narrowboat could (potentially) be turned in just over a boat length with this method, but only in the direction that the prop facilitates. A left-hand boat will pull to starboard in reverse and therefore, whenever possible, tight turns should be carried out by making a port turn. The key components are judging timing and momentum.

 

 

In practice:

 

- Pick a point on the dock where you want the bow to end up (usually a cleat/bollard). Aim a third to a half of a boat length behind it.

- Proceed at a 30 degree angle, at slow speed, in a straight line towards the bollard (as best you can, avoiding obstructions).

- When you are about half a boat length from the dock/pontoon/towpath, swing the helm away from the dock to initiate the turn and simultaneously put the boat in reverse. Prop walk will pull the stern towards the dock. As soon as the boat stops (moving forwards), put the gear in neutral. If everything has gone perfectly, the stern will be swinging a little bit and will gently come to rest against the side.

 

Swinging the helm away from the dock would turn the boat towards the dock. You mean swing the rudder.

Finally, you should make it clear in your example a) right or left handed and which side alongside.

 

- Timing, feel and finesse are everything, and so it takes practice on the calmer days! Every boat is different.

- Use 'burps' on the throttle to modulate the approach. The provide good forward momentum without adversely affecting prop walk.

 

Sorry to be picky but I can imagine some people might get a little confused with the tips you have outlined above.

 

Regards

 

Howard Anguish

[JohnOnTheWey]

Sorry to be picky but I can imagine some people might get a little confused with the tips you have outlined above.

 

 

 

I think I'm inclined to agree with Blackrose's comment:

"...I generally avoid going out at all if it looks like it's going to be windy..."

 

John

[Bones]

Sorry to be picky but I can imagine some people might get a little confused with the tips you have outlined above.

 

Regards

 

Howard Anguish

 

I think it all works if you aren't surrounded by plastic boats trying to get in an awkward corner with the wind!

 

Just think John - you will get better and better at it with practice! I was impressed with your reversing the other night! Maffi seems to be learning lots of tricks too - it must be the advantage of being out and about at this time of year at the mercy of our delightfully unpredictable weather!

[Neil@CanalVoyagers]

Tips:

 

1) Any boat will naturally lay beam to the wind. This is the 'stable' position for the boat, and when maneuvering, its the one the boat usually wants to return to! Therefore, you can (sometimes) guess what the boat will try to do next and counteract its movement.

 

This of course only aplies to vessels which have a uniform side profile. If they have higher cabins at the back or front then they will weathercock either bow into the wind or vice versa respectively.

 

Appreciated that this only applies to a uniform side profile (all theory/rules/tips are based on assumptions). As the discussion revolved around a narrowboat, I would still argue the relevance of the point, as a nb has an almost uniform side profile (in general - an assumption).

2) Propellers are optimised to push water forward. On the ascending side of the rotating prop, centrifugal force slings water up into the hull and is deflected sideways, causing sidewards thrust - called 'prop walking'. As a prop is more efficient in forward, this effect is more noticeable. If your prop turns anti-clockwise (from astern) its a left-hand propeller, and will pull the stern to the right in reverse. Of course, the opposite applies to a right-hand prop.

 

Actually, propellers push the water backwards, not forwards, when going ahead and therefore your suggestion about how prop walk (or "transverse thrust" to give it its Sunday name) comes about is not quite correct. The sideways force generated by a propeller is caused because as it rotates the lower blade meets more restistance from the water than the top blade which is near the surface. The top blade dissipates a proportion of its energy by churning the water whereas the lower blade meets more resistance and so has a bigger sideways element in addition to its backwards thrust. This causes the stern to move to starboard with a right handed prop when going ahead, and vice versa with a left handed prop. A good way of thinking about it is to imagine the forces involved if the propeller is only half submerged with the water line across the hub. The lower blade is meeting water restistance while the upper blade has none because it is turning in air. As the boat increases in draft and the prop becomes more and ore submerged the difference in sideways forces is reduced but the lower blades still generate more than the top. This has very little to do with water being deflected from the hull.

 

My mistake. My understanding of the reasons for the effect was false, and thank you for clarifying. I would still mention that the outcome is still the same as originally described, and I personally feel it worthy of consideration in tight maneuvers. It also proves quite handy in wide locks - I use it to 'slide' across to make room for others I may be sharing with.

 

When reversing, as you are backing up and preparing to put the gear in forward to slow and/or stop the boat, put the helm over hard in the desired direction first. When the gear is put in forward, discharge current over the rudder will simultaneously slow and turn the boat.

 

Combining the use of prop walk and rudder deflected propeller wash is an approach known as 'back and fill', and comes from square-rigger days when ships in close quarters would backwind the sails to go forward.

 

I don't think you mean this - if you backwind a sail on a square rigged ship you stop vessel and then go backwards, not forwards.

 

In fact, backwinding the sails is a procedure used to stop/change direction, but is also used to slow a vessel down, in the same way that you pulse the motor in reverse to slow a nb. It was also used for close-quarters maneuvering in combination with rudder-deflected wash, but not prop walk as incorrectly stated.

 

- When you are about half a boat length from the dock/pontoon/towpath, swing the helm away from the dock to initiate the turn and simultaneously put the boat in reverse. Prop walk will pull the stern towards the dock. As soon as the boat stops (moving forwards), put the gear in neutral. If everything has gone perfectly, the stern will be swinging a little bit and will gently come to rest against the side.[/color

 

Swinging the helm away from the dock would turn the boat towards the dock. You mean swing the rudder.

Finally, you should make it clear in your example a) right or left handed and cool.gif which side alongside.

 

I do not mean swing the rudder. Swinging the helm away from the dock will tilt the bow in towards the dock ever so slightly. As I mention, you are simultaneously putting the boat into reverse. This will cause the bow to drift in ever so slowly, whilst the stern will drift round at a faster rate, effectively sliding the nb in sideways. Bow and stern reach the dock at almost the same instance when done correctly.

 

I did not feel it necessary to explain which side, as the method described is then generic for either a left or right-handed prop. Explanation of the direction of the walk was given earlier in the post.

 

Whilst I appreciate the comments, and accept my mistaken understanding of the theory behind the process, I do feel that the criticism of a technique that pre-dates pleasure boating to be unjustified.

[tomsk]

Tips:

 

1) Any boat will naturally lay beam to the wind. This is the 'stable' position for the boat, and when maneuvering, its the one the boat usually wants to return to! Therefore, you can (sometimes) guess what the boat will try to do next and counteract its movement.

 

This of course only aplies to vessels which have a uniform side profile. If they have higher cabins at the back or front then they will weathercock either bow into the wind or vice versa respectively.

 

Appreciated that this only applies to a uniform side profile (all theory/rules/tips are based on assumptions). As the discussion revolved around a narrowboat, I would still argue the relevance of the point, as a nb has an almost uniform side profile (in general - an assumption).

2) Propellers are optimised to push water forward. On the ascending side of the rotating prop, centrifugal force slings water up into the hull and is deflected sideways, causing sidewards thrust - called 'prop walking'. As a prop is more efficient in forward, this effect is more noticeable. If your prop turns anti-clockwise (from astern) its a left-hand propeller, and will pull the stern to the right in reverse. Of course, the opposite applies to a right-hand prop.

 

Actually, propellers push the water backwards, not forwards, when going ahead and therefore your suggestion about how prop walk (or "transverse thrust" to give it its Sunday name) comes about is not quite correct. The sideways force generated by a propeller is caused because as it rotates the lower blade meets more restistance from the water than the top blade which is near the surface. The top blade dissipates a proportion of its energy by churning the water whereas the lower blade meets more resistance and so has a bigger sideways element in addition to its backwards thrust. This causes the stern to move to starboard with a right handed prop when going ahead, and vice versa with a left handed prop. A good way of thinking about it is to imagine the forces involved if the propeller is only half submerged with the water line across the hub. The lower blade is meeting water restistance while the upper blade has none because it is turning in air. As the boat increases in draft and the prop becomes more and ore submerged the difference in sideways forces is reduced but the lower blades still generate more than the top. This has very little to do with water being deflected from the hull.

 

My mistake. My understanding of the reasons for the effect was false, and thank you for clarifying. I would still mention that the outcome is still the same as originally described, and I personally feel it worthy of consideration in tight maneuvers. It also proves quite handy in wide locks - I use it to 'slide' across to make room for others I may be sharing with.

 

When reversing, as you are backing up and preparing to put the gear in forward to slow and/or stop the boat, put the helm over hard in the desired direction first. When the gear is put in forward, discharge current over the rudder will simultaneously slow and turn the boat.

 

Combining the use of prop walk and rudder deflected propeller wash is an approach known as 'back and fill', and comes from square-rigger days when ships in close quarters would backwind the sails to go forward.

 

I don't think you mean this - if you backwind a sail on a square rigged ship you stop vessel and then go backwards, not forwards.

 

In fact, backwinding the sails is a procedure used to stop/change direction, but is also used to slow a vessel down, in the same way that you pulse the motor in reverse to slow a nb. It was also used for close-quarters maneuvering in combination with rudder-deflected wash, but not prop walk as incorrectly stated.

 

- When you are about half a boat length from the dock/pontoon/towpath, swing the helm away from the dock to initiate the turn and simultaneously put the boat in reverse. Prop walk will pull the stern towards the dock. As soon as the boat stops (moving forwards), put the gear in neutral. If everything has gone perfectly, the stern will be swinging a little bit and will gently come to rest against the side.[/color

 

Swinging the helm away from the dock would turn the boat towards the dock. You mean swing the rudder.

Finally, you should make it clear in your example a) right or left handed and cool.gif which side alongside.

 

I do not mean swing the rudder. Swinging the helm away from the dock will tilt the bow in towards the dock ever so slightly. As I mention, you are simultaneously putting the boat into reverse. This will cause the bow to drift in ever so slowly, whilst the stern will drift round at a faster rate, effectively sliding the nb in sideways. Bow and stern reach the dock at almost the same instance when done correctly.

 

I did not feel it necessary to explain which side, as the method described is then generic for either a left or right-handed prop. Explanation of the direction of the walk was given earlier in the post.

 

Whilst I appreciate the comments, and accept my mistaken understanding of the theory behind the process, I do feel that the criticism of a technique that pre-dates pleasure boating to be unjustified.

 

 

After that I think a little light reading may be in order.....War and Peace perhaps, or something easily digested, Proust for instance, may do the trick (Joke, good post fella)

 

 

Edited to give credit where credits due

Edited October 6, 2006 by tomsk

[Bones]

all good points Neil - sorry for my filppance - here is a beer... .

[Neil@CanalVoyagers]

Thanks guys.... sorry for the long post, I do tend to get carried away!

 

[tomsk]

Thanks guys.... sorry for the long post, I do tend to get carried away!

 

 

 

No Problem, as Bones says all good points....I have recently had a seriousness by-pass and struggle to remain sensible for longer than a minute at a time....I wasn't trying to rubbish your post, although to some my Proust post may appear mocking.......I apologise unreservedly

[Neil@CanalVoyagers]

No offense taken in the first instance.

 

[Bones]

No offense taken in the first instance.

 

excellent!!!!!!

 

After that I think a little light reading may be in order.....War and Peace perhaps, or something easily digested, Proust for instance, may do the trick (Joke, good post fella)

Edited to give credit where credits due

 

 

does that mean I can now laugh out loud at Tomsks comment?

my sides were aching from concealing it!

[Yoda]

excellent!!!!!!

does that mean I can now laugh out loud at Tomsks comment?

my sides were aching from concealing it!

 

Too much personal stuff on this board. People have a right to say or try to help another. There is not enough respect for each other before posting. Do you really mean to post that??????

[JohnOnTheWey]

Too much personal stuff on this board. People have a right to say or try to help another. There is not enough respect for each other before posting. Do you really mean to post that??????

 

Chill out you should Yoda. Mild banter was that ... all friends here we are.

 

OnTheWeyJohn

[Yoda]

Chill out you should Yoda. Mild banter was that ... all friends here we are.

 

OnTheWeyJohn

 

Beautifully put Mr John, but people like to go too far sometimes!!