Fatal accident at Alrewas

[William Martin]

I have managed to spend hours at the helm of Cruiser and Semi Trads totally oblivious to this danger - no marks to the several hire companies over the years none of which ever pointed this danger out. Now that this sad accident and its ensuing report have made me aware of it, it is blindingly obvious - but how did I get so far without realising it?

 

It is like the dangers of the boat pole - a very helpful sales assistant at Kings Lock Chandlery expalined that one to me.

 

Too many dangers go unmentioned.

[Moley]

no marks to the several hire companies over the years none of which ever pointed this danger out.

Full marks then to Alvechurch (Anderton) who advised on the dangers of tiller and ropes on our first time out.

 

It is like the dangers of the boat pole - a very helpful sales assistant at Kings Lock Chandlery expalined that one to me.

Now you've lost me, unless you're talking about pushing from directly behind a wooden one.

 

Acquired a nice aluminium one on our hols (scaffolders shouldn't really leave 'em lying around near the cut )

[Hairy-Neil]

This was the repeat of a similar accident in Birmingham about 10 years ago. A female group leader on a school party boat out of Braunston did pretty much the same thing.

[blackrose]

Total rubbish. Steering from the counter of a trad boat is a modern phenomenon,as is the coiled rope hung over the tiller pin......

 

Surely there's a less confrontational way of disagreeing with someone and putting your point across?

[Hairy-Neil]

 

Too many dangers go unmentioned.

 

Would maybe put some people off if they knew the dangers.

[blackrose]

It is like the dangers of the boat pole - a very helpful sales assistant at Kings Lock Chandlery expalined that one to me.

 

Too many dangers go unmentioned.

 

In that case please mention them! What are the dangers of (the misuse of) the boat pole?

Edited September 25, 2006 by blackrose

[charles123]

I believe the trad stern is safer that the cruiser in respect of a tiller jolt knocking the steerer off balance for the reasons stated that you steer from within the hatches, I spend very little time steering from outside the hatches since you cant swing the tiller. I have noticed quite a few trads with a steerers seat, these must be risky and I doubt you can steer safely anyway perched up there. I have a cranked brass tiller arm which must help reduce risk as I put it in the up position when mooring etc, very handy and well worth the expense. Nor do I coil ropes round the tiller pin, have never seen the sense in that.

 

Charles

[alan_fincher]

Nor do I coil ropes round the tiller pin, have never seen the sense in that.

I'd add that the only time I'd ever have a rope on either of the rear studs is when I'm about to use one to moor up.

 

Mine stays ready for use, coiled up, on top of my sliding hatch, and can be hooked on in seconds if required.

 

Personally, I'd never have ropes on the rear deck, nor hanging from the tiller or tiller pin, (whatever style of stern I was trying to navigate with).

 

I DO accept that there is a considerable danger with trad sterns if people have (and use) those "Taff rail" type seats. But I can't see how you can associate the words "Taff rail" and "Traditional", and I struggle to see how anyone can really be incontrol if trying to use the tiller seated that far back, (and presumably out of reach of the engine controls, normally INSIDE the cabin, surely ?).

[William Martin]

"In that case please mention them! What are the dangers of (the misuse of) the boat pole?"

 

and I quote...

 

 

1) Never use it as a lever - the wood will snap potentially leaving a long spike sticking up for you to fall on - apparently a boater has been impaled in just such a manner

 

2) Never place yourself at the end of the pole, ie: always have the end over your shoulder behind you. 10 or 20 tons of moving boat on one side, the solid bank on the other, you in the middle, well lets just say, the pole will push through your chest long before it snaps.

 

More of that kind of wisdom that once pointed out is very obvious, but we dont always see.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

"Surely there's a less confrontational way of disagreeing with someone and putting your point across?"

 

Thank you for that!

[charles123]

"In that case please mention them! What are the dangers of (the misuse of) the boat pole?"

 

and I quote...

1) Never use it as a lever - the wood will snap potentially leaving a long spike sticking up for you to fall on - apparently a boater has been impaled in just such a manner

 

2) Never place yourself at the end of the pole, ie: always have the end over your shoulder behind you. 10 or 20 tons of moving boat on one side, the solid bank on the other, you in the middle, well lets just say, the pole will push through your chest long before it snaps.

 

More of that kind of wisdom that once pointed out is very obvious, but we dont always see.

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

"Surely there's a less confrontational way of disagreeing with someone and putting your point across?"

 

Thank you for that!

 

Many will disagree but I dont have a boat pole, or short or long shaft, or a shaft with a hook on the end, have simply never needed one as I never fancied trying to pole 19 tons of hull, any situations that have arised have been resolved with engine power. I have used them on a previous boat and found them awkward to use, heavy, hazardous to others when swinging around and not easy to get them off and on the roof

Having them on hire boats is asking for trouble

Mind you might be handy one day if running out of stove fuel on a freezing winters night and a saw to hand but thats as good as I can say about one

 

Charles

[Moley]

1) Never use (boat pole) as a lever - the wood will snap potentially leaving a long spike sticking up for you to fall on - apparently a boater has been impaled in just such a manner

 

2) Never place yourself at the end of the pole, ie: always have the end over your shoulder behind you. 10 or 20 tons of moving boat on one side, the solid bank on the other, you in the middle, well lets just say, the pole will push through your chest long before it snaps.

I guess you could always use one of those new-fangled Bow Thrusters instead of a pole?

 

coat - quick!

[Hairy-Neil]

"In that case please mention them! What are the dangers of (the misuse of) the boat pole?"

 

and I quote...

1) Never use it as a lever - the wood will snap potentially leaving a long spike sticking up for you to fall on - apparently a boater has been impaled in just such a manner

 

2) Never place yourself at the end of the pole, ie: always have the end over your shoulder behind you. 10 or 20 tons of moving boat on one side, the solid bank on the other, you in the middle, well lets just say, the pole will push through your chest long before it snaps.

 

 

 

Not recommended to use one from a moving boat. An exception is when reversing it can reasonably safely be used to keep the front of the boat in the centre of the canal, standing facing back watching what the steerer/boat is doing is best.

 

I wouldn't be without a cabin shaft, is a wonderful tool..........who needs a weed hatch....

[blackrose]

"In that case please mention them! What are the dangers of (the misuse of) the boat pole?"

 

and I quote...

1) Never use it as a lever - the wood will snap potentially leaving a long spike sticking up for you to fall on - apparently a boater has been impaled in just such a manner

 

2) Never place yourself at the end of the pole, ie: always have the end over your shoulder behind you. 10 or 20 tons of moving boat on one side, the solid bank on the other, you in the middle, well lets just say, the pole will push through your chest long before it snaps.

 

More of that kind of wisdom that once pointed out is very obvious, but we dont always see.

 

Nasty! Yes, it's obvious now you mention it, but hadn't thought of it myself. This safety advice (+ the dangers of getting knocked off the stern we've talked about), should be in one of those BW leaflets they send out with our licences, and also distributed by BW to all hire companies to give to their customers.

 

Rob @ BSS does this come under your remit?

 

Many will disagree but I dont have a boat pole, or short or long shaft, or a shaft with a hook on the end, have simply never needed one as I never fancied trying to pole 19 tons of hull, any situations that have arised have been resolved with engine power. I have used them on a previous boat and found them awkward to use, heavy, hazardous to others when swinging around and not easy to get them off and on the roof

Having them on hire boats is asking for trouble

Mind you might be handy one day if running out of stove fuel on a freezing winters night and a saw to hand but thats as good as I can say about one

 

Charles

 

I'm sure there are cheaper sources of firewood!

 

A pole might be useful if your engine cuts out or you get something wrapped round your prop, especially if there's nobody on the towpath to throw a rope to.

Edited September 25, 2006 by blackrose

[DHutch]

Oh deary me...

 

I mean, at the end of the day, life is potentially dangous, thats just a fact.

- Being better educated can, and often does, help. However, it will never substitude common sence, and a bit of thought about the problem in hand.

 

The problem is is commonsence is becoming so much less common, and nobody stops for just one moment to stand back and THINK for one mement about what they are actally doing!

 

 

 

 

Take the boat pole discution for instance, common sence says that if you take a long thin wooden pole, and apply a large bending moment on it (such as leavering somthing) it will bend, and inevitably, if bend enough, snap, possably splitering in the process. WELL, knock me down jimmy!

- Simularly, if you consider for one moment whats likly to happen if you get between 20tons of moving boat and a solid object, boatpole or no boatpole, surly if common ruddy sence that its going to be a bad idea! Would you jump infront of a car coming towards you?

 

Without meaning to personaly insult to William, anyone who needs a "sales assistant" to explan the above is an idiot!

 

 

 

 

 

 

The case of the rudder pulling the tiller over to one side when reversing is a more complicated one. And one that i can see could catch out the unexpecting hirer the first time the really open it op in reverse.

- And i think that it would be fair to say that hire companys should idealy warn people of this, partiularly in light of the recent incedent the alrewas.

- However, theres no end of little things that you could say that about. And the hirebase simply cant tell everyone everything. Ive been on canals all my remebering life, and properbly clock up 70+days boating a year. Yet im still learning flatout!

 

You cant tell everyone everthing everytime.

 

 

Daniel

[DHutch]

I never fancied trying to pole 19 tons of hull, any situations that have arised have been resolved with engine power.

So what happens when you run around, in the middle of the canal.

- Stuck fast, unable to move the boat with the propeller, with 4ft of water all around you. Rev the engine anyway?

 

Or as blackrose pointed out, what about if you got something wound around your prop and needed to get to the side? Maybe your drifting towards a weir? Or coasting towards a line of moored grp boats?

 

Alternativly your manouving in a stupidly tight marina, in the howling wind, surounded by 40 boats all with there £40,000 paint job gleaming at you?

 

The possabilys where a boat pole is invaluable are endless. And you would be supprised how easy it is to man-handle even the more heavy of boats.

- Emilyanne is about 22tons on average, but i can easly pole her 300yrds up the canal for water, and back again, winding if thats appropreate.

- If you have access to a dencent towpath, a pair of you can bowhawl her for several miles with very little affort at all. Maybe you should try it oneday!

 

 

 

Daniel

[blackrose]

Oh deary me...

 

I mean, at the end of the day, life is potentially dangous, thats just a fact.

- Being better educated can, and often does, help. However, it will never substitude common sence, and a bit of thought about the problem in hand.

 

The problem is is commonsence is becoming so much less common, and nobody stops for just one moment to stand back and THINK for one mement about what they are actally doing!

Take the boat pole discution for instance, common sence says that if you take a long thin wooden pole, and apply a large bending moment on it (such as leavering somthing) it will bend, and inevitably, if bend enough, snap, possably splitering in the process. WELL, knock me down jimmy!

- Simularly, if you consider for one moment whats likly to happen if you get between 20tons of moving boat and a solid object, boatpole or no boatpole, surly if common ruddy sence that its going to be a bad idea! Would you jump infront of a car coming towards you?

 

Without meaning to personaly insult to William, anyone who needs a "sales assistant" to explan the above is an idiot!

The case of the rudder pulling the tiller over to one side when reversing is a more complicated one. And one that i can see could catch out the unexpecting hirer the first time the really open it op in reverse.

- And i think that it would be fair to say that hire companys should idealy warn people of this, partiularly in light of the recent incedent the alrewas.

- However, theres no end of little things that you could say that about. And the hirebase simply cant tell everyone everything. Ive been on canals all my remebering life, and properbly clock up 70+days boating a year. Yet im still learning flatout!

 

You cant tell everyone everthing everytime.

Daniel

 

Got to disagree with you on this one Daniel.

 

I do not regard myself as an idiot and I don't think that I would ever use a boat pole in this way, but nevertheless I hadn't thought of it & I'm glad that William pointed it out to me. Sometimes through lapses of thinking we do stupid things, even though we may not be stupid.

 

In the same way that I always tell any family or guests visiting my boat to keep their arms & legs within the boat's profile when we approach bridges & locks, I would also now tell anyone who I asked to use my boat pole how to use it properly. I would rather be a heath & safety bore for 2 mins at the beginning of a boat trip than wondering after an accident if it would have made any difference had I gone over a couple of points first.

 

It's axiomatic that "commonsense" isn't necessarily common.

 

For example, it's also commonsense to look out for motorcyclists before pulling out onto a road in your car, but being reminded of this by the use of shocking TV adverts has statistically brought down such fatalities. They wouldn't pay for these adverts if it didn't work, and being a motorcyclist myself I appreciate them, just as I appreciate William's post.

 

As you say, you can't tell everyone everything all the time. However, you can tell people who are engaged in potentially dangerous activities things that may not have occured to them and which may save their lives.

Edited September 26, 2006 by blackrose

[anhar]

I'm with Daniel on this. William sounds like the chairman of his local H&S club where even getting up in the morning requires legislation to prevent people injuring themselves. We have far too much H&S nonsense these days trying to rule our lives in every area.

 

We all know the often ludicrous lengths to which these laws sometimes go in order to prevent people injuring themselves. The effect is that loads of everyday things that everyone took for granted many years ago are either now banned or require a 19 man team of safety experts to be present before they can be done, thus effectively banning them anyway.

 

I thought nearly everyone on the forum agreed with that kind of view and am surprised that we have nannies here too.

 

regards

Steve

[Bones]

I'm with Daniel on this. William sounds like the chairman of his local H&S club where even getting up in the morning requires legislation to prevent people injuring themselves. We have far too much H&S nonsense these days trying to rule our lives in every area.

 

We all know the often ludicrous lengths to which these laws sometimes go in order to prevent people injuring themselves. The effect is that loads of everyday things that everyone took for granted many years ago are either now banned or require a 19 man team of safety experts to be present before they can be done, thus effectively banning them anyway.

 

I thought nearly everyone on the forum agreed with that kind of view and am surprised that we have nannies here too.

 

regards

Steve

 

Steve,

No offense, but I think you are confusing health and safety law with simple education. There are many things I take for granted as being common sense, but having had a wide range of people on my boat I do not take anything for granted. To me it is common sense not to jump onto the bank with a rope but rather step onto it. This was not common sense to a first timer who slipped on the grass and fell between the boat and the bank and was injured. One crew member also managed to snap my brand new boaters pole in half - I was amazed. Thankfully the individual was not harmed.

There is a big difference between education and simple instruction, over law. I don't want health and safety to jump in and insist we follow their rediculous rules. However, I for one certainly value my friends, and even strangers lives more than to rely on what I regard as common sense. Afterall, common sense usually only prevails once one is experienced.

 

Valueing a life, and being keen to ensure that something we as boaters love, is as enjoyable to those for whom it is a new experience is not being a nanny, its called being decent and exercising common sense.

 

Mort

[anhar]

Steve,

No offense, but I think you are confusing health and safety law with simple education. There are many things I take for granted as being common sense, but having had a wide range of people on my boat I do not take anything for granted. To me it is common sense not to jump onto the bank with a rope but rather step onto it. This was not common sense to a first timer who slipped on the grass and fell between the boat and the bank and was injured. One crew member also managed to snap my brand new boaters pole in half - I was amazed. Thankfully the individual was not harmed.

There is a big difference between education and simple instruction, over law. I don't want health and safety to jump in and insist we follow their rediculous rules. However, I for one certainly value my friends, and even strangers lives more than to rely on what I regard as common sense. Afterall, common sense usually only prevails once one is experienced.

 

Valueing a life, and being keen to ensure that something we as boaters love, is as enjoyable to those for whom it is a new experience is not being a nanny, its called being decent and exercising common sense.

 

Mort

Hi Mort

 

In general I agree with you. It's about line drawing. Obviously beginners need some safety tips, no argument there. However perhaps I should have been specific in my criticism where I believe William went too far with H&S. Here is his earlier comment to which I was referring specifically.

 

From a health and safety point of view a trad stern is a nightmare - the operator stands unprotected about three feet away from a potentialy fatal source of danger, the cruiser being only a little better in that what protection there is does not guard against the most likely accident, the swinging tiller.

 

This to me is way over protective and definitely in the H&S supernanny class.

 

I'd meant to respond to it earlier, but some writing work got in the way. Damned work is so inconvenient don't you think, even though these days I'm virtually retired. So I did not intend to criticise everything in the thread, it was the above comment in particular that I found a little excessive. Alright then, seriously excessive.

 

(Was going to say "over the top" but I dislike that cliché because it is used wrongly. Dating from WW1, it never meant excessive, it meant going from relative safety in a trench into the unknown, and thereby facing a high risk of death or serious injury. Thus if used metaphorically as now, it should be used to refer to facing very serious risks from an earlier safe position, not merely saying or doing something considered excessive.) All of which explanation makes me sound like a pompous ass I am well aware.

 

regards

Steve

[Bones]

Steve,

I see, thank you for explaining that to me, I see you were refering to the quote rather than Daniels comment about common sense. Common sense can never be relied on - one just has to watch Oxford students trying to get out of a department with a turnstyle door - they seem to fail to quivver in confusion before asking someone to assist them - despite uge big arrows pointing to the huge button to press to exit. Were we to rely on common sense the world would be a very peculiar!

Mort

 

I was posting as William was, and it seems he has made things clear and we are all singing from the same hymn sheet - greater awareness. I am very pro this.. I wonder what we can do about it?

Edited September 26, 2006 by Bones

[William Martin]

"Without meaning to personally insult to William, anyone who needs a "sales assistant" to explain the above is an idiot!"

 

 

Thanks for the insult - you are very lucky to have been born with such total instinctive wisdom!

 

My point remains - this tragic accident serves to illustrate that some dangers are less obvious than others, and I for one am very happy to have things pointed out to me by sales assistants or online forums.

 

It seems to me that standing on the rearmost part of any narrowboat within the arc of the tiller during maneuvers is very very dangerous. This has never been pointed out to me before. A cruiser stern in particular encourages such a position, perhaps compounded by the lack of perceived danger due to the presence of a rail. Up until now I have tended to stand in exactly that position using the logic that I am ready to push off or jump off if required. I am going to stay within my semi-trad haven from now on.

 

 

 

"sounds like the chairman of his local H&S club"

 

Quiet the opposite - I have never advocated legislation, I hate it. My points have all been about greater awareness and therefore better safety through intelligent self regulation - AWARENESS, steeringwheel spike, not speed cameras! That is the great benefit of a forum like this, the sharing of information, the greater awareness. I for one benefit greatly from the learning experience of these exchanges - hopefully we all do and are happier, safer boater as a result. Who knows, this thread may unknowingly have saved my life!

 

 

"From a health and safety point of view a trad stern is a nightmare - the operator stands unprotected about three feet away from a potentialy fatal source of danger, the cruiser being only a little better in that what protection there is does not guard against the most likely accident, the swinging tiller.

 

This to me is way over protective and definitely in the H&S supernanny class. "

 

I think we qualified this further on in the thread - the apparently incorrect practice of standing right back out of the hatch/doorway is dangerous - not the correct procedure of remaining there in safety.

[Guest]

 

 

It seems to me that standing on the rearmost part of any narrowboat within the arc of the tiller during maneuvers is very very dangerous. This has never been pointed out to me before. A cruiser stern in particular encourages such a position, perhaps compounded by the lack of perceived danger due to the presence of a rail. Up until now I have tended to stand in exactly that position using the logic that I am ready to push off or jump off if required. I am going to stay within my semi-trad haven from now on.

 

 

My thoughts entirely, I am certainly reviewing the situation.

[alan_fincher]

There has been much debate here that assumes the poor individual was swept over the side by the swing of the tiller.

 

I must admit when I first read the report, I made a different assumption, thinking perhaps that he had just reversed hard and struck the side, simply sending him off balance.

 

I've been back and re-read it, and, unless I'm missing something, I can't actually see anything that conclusively says what happened, nor mentions any tiller involvement.

 

So whilst I do accept possible dangers from being swept over by a tiller, can we at least accept that this is only MAYBE what happened here ?

 

Unless anyone knows for certain, the actual explanation may be quite different, as the report simply doesn't go down to the fine detail.

 

(I'd even go as far as to suggest that possibly the only person who might have known for definite, sadly isn't now around to tell the tale )

[John Orentas]

Is it just me! When I try standing in front of the tiller my neck starts aching within 2 minutes, resting my chin on my left shoulder feels very unatural. In truth the only time I do it is in heavy rain whe I can hide behind the doors with my brolly.

 

Yes I have often wondered what would happen if the rudder hit something very solid when reversing, a good reason to reverse slowly.

[Bones]

My thoughts entirely, I am certainly reviewing the situation.

 

 

I thought the rails on the back of a cruiser stern WERE for sitting on - it never occured to me not to, and I certainly won't now!

Edited September 26, 2006 by Bones