Intermittant starter fault

[wandering snail]

Sometimes the starter will turn the engine over, sometimes it won't. Skipper's repaired the relay cos apparently they're not made for our Perkins M65 anymore (!?) and that seems to be working again. There's a new starter battery which also seems ok, including the wiring so what are we missing?

[Justme]

By relay I take it you mean the solenoid?

 

I would still say that is the solenoid thats at fault if you get a loud click when turning the key even when it does not turn over.

 

You would need to meter the thick wire to the actual starter whilst turning the key till the solenoid clicks to see if its getting power. If it is then its not the solenoid. Then its more likely to be the brushes.

[MtB]

A starter motor not used regularly tends to grow a film of corrosion on the surface of the solenoid contacts, leading to it sometimes working, sometimes not. Try just starting it more often!

 

MtB

[wandering snail]

A starter motor not used regularly tends to grow a film of corrosion on the surface of the solenoid contacts, leading to it sometimes working, sometimes not. Try just starting it more often!

 

MtB

Hoping this is all it is!

 

By relay I take it you mean the solenoid?

 

I would still say that is the solenoid thats at fault if you get a loud click when turning the key even when it does not turn over.

 

You would need to meter the thick wire to the actual starter whilst turning the key till the solenoid clicks to see if its getting power. If it is then its not the solenoid. Then its more likely to be the brushes.

According to the manual, it's an insulated negative earth relay, or put another way, a bloody great big solenoid. One of the main terminals had broken off inside the body which Skipper's replaced with a (non-copper) nut and bolt so praps it's not conducting enough electricity. But this wouldn't explain why it works sometimes?? Tomorrow will see if it always clicks when trying out Mike's idea!!

[ChimneyChain]

Bad earth ??

 

Darren

[wandering snail]

Bad earth ??

 

Darren

Yes maybe, see above about recent repair as the relay makes the earth connection.

[bizzard]

Yes maybe, see above about recent repair as the relay makes the earth connection.

Trie gowing dyreckt to the starter moter from the battterie pos+ poast with a hevy jumpa leed. and a leed from the injyn mass to the batterie neg- poast.

[Justme]

It the relay / solenoid on the starter or remote from it?

 

You can get generic remote ones that would do the job.

[wandering snail]

It the relay / solenoid on the starter or remote from it?

 

You can get generic remote ones that would do the job.

Yes it is remote but so far have only got details of one from the USA stocked by a Dutch dealer. That will be zillions more than one sourced from the UK if you know of such an animal. The Perkins dealer in UK never did get back to us....

How do you specify what you need sizewise or are they all the same?

 

Trie gowing dyreckt to the starter moter from the battterie pos+ poast with a hevy jumpa leed. and a leed from the injyn mass to the batterie neg- poast.

Now desperately trying to get our jump leads returned from a 'borrower' to give this a try, thanks.

[ditchcrawler]

Yes it is remote but so far have only got details of one from the USA stocked by a Dutch dealer. That will be zillions more than one sourced from the UK if you know of such an animal. The Perkins dealer in UK never did get back to us....

How do you specify what you need sizewise or are they all the same?

 

Now desperately trying to get our jump leads returned from a 'borrower' to give this a try, thanks.

Any chance of a photo

[Timleech]

Yes it is remote but so far have only got details of one from the USA stocked by a Dutch dealer. That will be zillions more than one sourced from the UK if you know of such an animal. The Perkins dealer in UK never did get back to us....

How do you specify what you need sizewise or are they all the same?

 

 

Is your electrical system isolated from the steelwork (assuming steel boat)? If it isn't, you shouldn't really need that solenoid and could go direct from starter body to battery. - IF my understanding is correct from your description.

 

Something like this ought to do the job

 

 

Tim

[Keeping Up]

Is there a battery isolator switch? They can be quite unreliable too.

[wandering snail]

 

Is there a battery isolator switch? They can be quite unreliable too.

Yes there is and Snail had a big bang on that side when the JCB hit which damaged our inverter, also on that side but surely it can't switch itself on or off, or can it??

 

 

Is your electrical system isolated from the steelwork (assuming steel boat)? If it isn't, you shouldn't really need that solenoid and could go direct from starter body to battery. - IF my understanding is correct from your description.

 

Something like this ought to do the job

 

 

 

Thank you for the link, it's similar to the USA/Dutch one and much cheaper!

As far as Skipper is aware, the boat is negative earthed so he was surprised that we needed an extra relay to earth it during start up but is this just to cope with the extra current required?

 

 

Edited April 11, 2013 by wandering snail

[Timleech]

The engine was probably supplied for isolated return as standard, it used to be the norm for marine engines.

 

Tim

[wandering snail]

Any chance of a photo

It's back in place now and Skipper can barely get his hand in there let alone a camera!! Heavy steel drum shaped thing, 4" long, 1.75" dia. with 2x8mm heavy weight connections and 2 light weight ones.

 

The engine was probably supplied for isolated return as standard, it used to be the norm for marine engines.

 

Tim

Ooh, can we do without it then and what does Skipper put in place instead? By the way, thank you for this!

[Justme]

If its drum shaped then it will be mounted on the starter so a generic one wont fit.

 

Best bet is to take the starter in to a vehicle electrical reconditioners.

[wandering snail]

If its drum shaped then it will be mounted on the starter so a generic one wont fit.

 

Best bet is to take the starter in to a vehicle electrical reconditioners.

It's mounted on a bracket on the engine, there's a separate 'normal' one on the starter motor.

[ditchcrawler]

This has come up before, I am not sure it was on CWF. I am trying to remember the theory behind it, I feel it ties in with preventing any current flow through the hull when the alternator is charging, which will also be insulated return. Where as most setups the engine is bonded back to neutral by a big hefty cable 24/7 forming a parallel circuit.

If I am wrong don't jump on my as the memory isn't what it use to be.

[Timleech]

 

 

 

Ooh, can we do without it then and what does Skipper put in place instead? By the way, thank you for this!

 

As a temporary measure, just put both of the large cable lugs onto the same stud on the solenoid.

That is IF my reading of the situation is correct.

 

Edit to recommend checking with a voltmeter, with the battery master switch ON, that there is no voltage difference between the two solenoid terminals. Then of course switch off the batteries before fiddling with the terminals!

 

What has made you decide that it's this soenoid that is at fault?

 

Tim

Edited April 11, 2013 by Timleech

[mattlad]

Sometimes the starter will turn the engine over, sometimes it won't. Skipper's repaired the relay cos apparently they're not made for our Perkins M65 anymore (!?) and that seems to be working again. There's a new starter battery which also seems ok, including the wiring so what are we missing?

Does it click or does it do absolutely nothing?

 

Is there a battery isolator switch? They can be quite unreliable too.

Battery isolator switches are reliable.

 

As in reliably unreliable..........

[bizzard]

Frankly I'd use jump leads and go direct from the battery to the starter bypassing all the other stuff to check out the starter and its own solenoid first.'' 2 mins to do this'', then if no go check out the other stuff ie, connections, terminals, isolator ect.

To do this---

Connect red jump lead to pos+ battery post and the other end to the top large terminal nut on the starters solenoid '' the one where the heavy cable from the battery is connected.''

The black jump cable connect to batteries neg- post, tother end clamp onto starter body or if an insulated starter to its earth- neg terminal nut.

Take a length of thinner wire and hold one bare end of it to the red jump lead clamp and touch the other end to the small terminal on the starters solenoid ''the one that has the wire from the starter button or key switch on it''

The starter should then spin the engine over.. bypassing and eliminating all other stuff.

Edited April 11, 2013 by bizzard

[wandering snail]

What has made you decide that it's this soenoid that is at fault?

 

Tim

Cos one of the bolts had sheared off!! Now replaced with a non-brass one so praps that's the problem. It does sound very laboured when trying to start but then sometimes it starts easily too!

 

Frankly I'd use jump leads and go direct from the battery to the starter bypassing all the other stuff to check out the starter and its own solenoid first.'' 2 mins to do this'', then if no go check out the other stuff ie, connections, terminals, isolator ect.

To do this---

Connect red jump lead to pos+ battery post and the other end to the top large terminal nut on the starters solenoid '' the one where the heavy cable from the battery is connected.''

The black jump cable connect to batteries neg- post, tother end clamp onto starter body or if an insulated starter to its earth- neg terminal nut.

Take a length of thinner wire and hold one bare end of it to the red jump lead clamp and touch the other end to the small terminal on the starters solenoid ''the one that has the wire from the starter button or key switch on it''

The starter should then spin the engine over.. bypassing and eliminating all other stuff.

Still waiting for the return of the jump leads..........will update.

[wandering snail]

Does it click or does it do absolutely nothing?

It clicks.

[wandering snail]

Thanks to all who responded. Now sourcing a new solenoid to replace the burnt to a cinder repaired one and have re-attached the 70mm cable that had mysteriously come adrift which might be why it sounded so laboured when it did try to start!

[wandering snail]

Engine's now starting again - in the end it all came down to rust between the starter motor and engine block. Thanks to all who gave helpful suggestions.