HS2 Northern Routes

[TheOldCrew]

I'm new here so excuse me if I upset any one!

First I would like to make it clear that if this government has found a pot of gold I think it could be spent on far more deserving causes than saving a few politicians and businessmen sixty minutes on their trips to and from London. I'm retired, live in Cumbria and generally can't afford to think about rail travel to London on the present network and I am sure HS2 will not be cheaper (even if we are on the train for less time)! My only rail commuting was from Carlisle to Aberdeen and I rather enjoyed watching the scenery pass by sedately.

 

When I do use the rail network to pick up the boat or car (as one does) then my trips from and to Cumbria could benefit from improvements to the network here in the north and HS2 will not do that.

 

As boaters my wife and I have pored over the maps (were they intentionally drawn up to be as difficult to follow as they are?) we breathed some sighs of relief and then exploded over others, particulary when looking at the Middlewich branch.

 

Of course the canals, railways and roads all follow similar paths and we are well used to having stretches of canal that are on our 'not to be moored on' list because they are too close to a motorway or railway. I too am a bit of a rail enthusiast and have been known to hover to catch site of a train or get a photo. But overnighting at Salt on the T&M this year proved too much, with the Pendilino's racing past through the night with the extra traffic for the Olympics. I agree that Motorways are far more likely to keep you awake than trains but I do not wish to even try mooring alongside the HS2.

 

Of course I probably won't have to, as I will have at least given up boating or be in my box before HS2 is running! However the damage is done and many home owners will be in a panic over far more serious financial and stressfull problems than any of us boaters who will in general be able to move on. (excepting those moored in Great Hayward marina that is)!

 

As to the Chesterfield Canal, I just despair at the lack of joined up thinking that allows this project to appear to destroy so much effort by so many. The world is mad and I need to get back on my boat and pull up the gang plank. I have just watched a program on TV whereby the council in Cheltenham have denied a woman the right to a driveway from the road to the front of her property so that she can park her car in front of her house whilst every other house in her road already has one. There are rules for some and non at all for others! Even without a planning application HS2 has done its damage already to many. If it goes ahead, then there will be years of disruption and chaos during its building and it is not without its links to the existing system, look at Crewe, that has to impact on the West Coast mainline. Not to mention disruption on the canals and roads too.

 

Now today on the news they have announced that Cumbria CC doesn't want an underground nuclear waste store in Cumbria (they want to leave it to rot above ground at Sellafield?) If I had £32b to spend I would give some priority to dealing with that little problem before it gets worse and stop all this nonsense about HS2. The UK is a small island and nowhere is that far that we need to travel so fast. Leave it to the French and the Chinese with longer distances to travel.

[cheshire~rose]

Welcome to the forum TheOldCrew.

 

May I just say it is lovely to get a first post from someone who is not is adding to the general discussion here with such a well written post(regardless of whether anyone agrees or disagrees with you)

[cheshire~rose]

It would seem that HS2 are prepared to listen to and discuss concerns over the proposed route.

On Wednesday there was a clip about how it affect Chesterfield Canal on ITV's Calendar programme which can be viewed here: ITV Calendar (scroll down to 9:30 pm, Wed 20 Feb 2013 "Confusion over HS2 plans")

 

Details of some of the Chesterfield Canal Trusts concerns are here: Chesterfield Canal Trust Website

 

The response below from Ian Jordan of HS2 Ltd

 

"The route north of Birmingham that was recently published is the Government’s initial preferred route and we are now able to address concerns about specific sites such as the Chesterfield Canal in more detail with local authorities.

We have recently met with Chesterfield Council* and discussions will continue.

A full public consultation will also open later this year and information gathered through the consultation will help inform the decision on the final route, which will include how the line can cross existing infrastructure such as canals."

 

Hopefully the various other canal trusts around the system have also got themselves on the HS2 radar and are managing to gear up for the public consultation too.

[KenK]

C&RT have also asked the goverment to afford the same planning protection to the waterways as that already enjoyed by the National Trust. If granted that would have a bearing on the HS2 planners.

 

Ken

[Doorman]

With the ghettoisation of working people, due to a Housing Benefit cap and a minimum wage that is far less than a living wage, you will find an increase in people having to commute.

 

Better in trains than cars.

 

 

Are you absolutely certain about that?

Edited February 23, 2013 by Doorman

[Guest]

NAO report calls HS2 benefits into question-

 

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-22543860

[cheshire~rose]

Further to todays announcment The Chesterfield Canal Trust have released a press announcement:

 

National Audit Office report slams HS2 but remains silent on damage already done

 

16th May 2013

 

Today’s report from the UK’s National Audit Office on the British High Speed rail line, known as HS2, is highly critical of the early programme preparation work undertaken, but does not cover the damage already done to economic regeneration projects blighted by the HS2 route.

 

One very popular local organisation, the Chesterfield Canal Trust, formed 35 years ago to campaign for the full restoration and use of the canal, saw its plans put on hold when the route for HS2 , announced in January 2013, cut through and ran along the line of the canal, at water level.

 

What’s more, no one in Government has told funding organisations how to treat applications from projects affected by the route – should the projects be funded on the off chance HS2 doesn’t happen or not?

 

Members of the Trust were stunned to read that the largest benefit in the economic case for HS2 - the rebalancing the economy, and journey time savings - is “UNCLEAR” according to the National Audit Office.

 

Reading that passenger demand for HS2 has been forecast on the “ASSUMPTION” that fares for HS2 will be no more expensive than current high speed and conventional rail, and that HS2 has not yet analysed the effect of premium pricing on forecast passenger demand, has left members open mouthed.

 

Chair of the Chesterfield Canal Trust, Robin Stonebridge, explained:

"On the day that the HS2 route was announced as cutting through our canal’s restoration route, our hopes of further funding were dashed. We were within days of submitting a bid to the Heritage Lottery Fund for £2 million to restore a three mile stretch of canal. That bid is now in limbo.

 

We have tried to engage with HS2 to sort out this horrible mess. We knew that it was based on faulty maps; we are very concerned that there are also faulty assumptions.

 

We have met with representatives of HS2, but they have been able to offer little hope of change until the end of the public consultation next year. Thus our funding streams have been blighted and the hopes and aspirations of hundreds of communities and tens of thousands of citizens have been put on hold.

 

The Chesterfield Canal Partnership has spent many years producing a case for the restoration of the remaining 8 miles of derelict canal. Every lock, bridge and aqueduct is described in detail as is the economic and ecological impact. Endless surveys, such as ground conditions and water supply, have been undertaken. At every stage we have published our plans, held public meetings and listened to what local people think. The whole canal could be finished, bringing a massive boost in jobs and tourism, for £35 million.

 

It is therefore extremely frustrating to read in the NAO report on HS2 Phase Two :
- That the objectives are unclear, i.e how building HS2 will contribute to rebalancing the economy between North and South;
- That HS2 has a weak and weakening business case;
- That the £33 billion costs of the project may not have included VAT;
- That the timetable is ambitious and challenging.

 

What is missing from the NAO Report is an assessment of the cost and damage that has already been done to existing and planned economic and social regeneration projects by announcing the route of HS2 in the manner it was announced. The unintended costs of HS2 may be far greater than the costs of the line itself.

 

There is widespread support for improving the public transport infrastructure in this country, but the improvements have to be realistic, affordable and they have to work. So far, £100 million has been spent on HS2, yet the Paving Bill allowing spending on it has not seen the light of day. We’ve slogged for 30 years to restore the canal – the total cost of restoration is £35 million and the benefit/cost ratio is far better!!”

 

Quote from Natascha Engel MP NE Derbyshire

(Citation:Hansard HC Deb, 15 May 2013, c720)

 

“The Chesterfield canal project, which regenerates very poor parts of the constituency, has also been operating for decades. The HS2 tracks will go right over the canal, and any match funding raised for the development of the canal has already stopped. These are important economic regeneration projects that have been stopped in their tracks because of the publication of a train line route, which has not even been finalised yet, let alone built.”

Anyone wishing to read the press release on the Chesterfield Canal Trust Website can do so here:

 

http://www.chesterfield-canal-trust.org.uk/index.php/latest-news/press-releases/452-national-audit-office-report-slams-hs2-but-remains-silent-on-damage-already-done

 

There are also links on that page to other articles on how The Chesterfield Canal is likely to be affected by the route of HS2

 

I have to admit I do love the artwork they used on their last "Cuckoo" magazine!

 

Edited May 16, 2013 by cheshire~rose

[Guest]

Quote -

 

- That the £33 billion costs of the project may not have included VAT;

 

utterly astonishing if correct.......

[cheshire~rose]

Quote -

 

- That the £33 billion costs of the project may not have included VAT;

 

utterly astonishing if correct.......

 

There are a lot of things about the plans that I find astonishing, the fact that so much has been spent on consultants who have used incorrect data and plans to produce this entire fiasco bewilders me.

[Guest]

Further doubt cast on the economic benefits for the North.

 

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-27184269

[cheshire~rose]

They need to just pull their fingers out and decide if they are doing it or not because the whole time it rumbles on there is the most terrible blight affecing individuals, businesses and organisations all along the route.

 

Only last week I was at the home of a friend who died recently with family members who had the estate agent around for valuation. The estate agent estimated the current value of the property to be around half what the family expected because the line is due to run across the corner of the estate and there are already several homes on that estate that are vacant and no one is showing any interest in.

 

In the mean time the family will have to continue to pay ground rent - and after a while council tax and they do not live in the area so all they relly want to do is wind up their late mothers estate and move on with their lives. It is causing genuine hardship to ordinary people in a massive way.

 

As for The Chesterfield Canal? They are not going to stop us! Business as usual....

 

This is a photo taken at Stavely Town Lock on Friday:

 

 

For the full details follow this link:

 

http://www.chesterfield-canal-trust.org.uk/index.php/latest-news/closing-the-gap/563-concrete-and-more-concrete

[NickF]

I am not sure I fully support the HS2, but here we are trying to protect what 200 years ago was a modern transport link that everyone objected to from a modern transport link that everyone objects to! I can see Machpoint005's point ... it is ironic.

[Guest]

I am not sure I fully support the HS2, but here we are trying to protect what 200 years ago was a modern transport link that everyone objected to from a modern transport link that everyone objects to! I can see Machpoint005's point ... it is ironic.

It's not just about the blight on canals.

 

Objections relate to the cost versus the benefits plus the widespread blight on the countryside and properties.

 

The impact on the 200 year system is but a part of it.

 

Besides where the objectors to canals not actually correct?? Was not any economic benefit derived from their commercial use actually relatively short lived in the big scheme of things.

Edited April 28, 2014 by The Dog House

[cheshire~rose]

The difference is that we now know exactly what the economic benefits of restoring the canal are - it is something that has been seen already, not just on The Chesterfield but all across the country. We have a very good idea of the cost of the restoration too - a tiny fraction of the cost of HS2, in fact a tiy fraction of the cost of the consultation for HS2

 

If they want to build their railway then bring it on, but they need to get on with it and make due consideration within the route for features such as the canal which their consultants said was derelict when in fact some sections were fully navigable

[Doorman]

There are a lot of things about the plans that I find astonishing, the fact that so much has been spent on consultants who have used incorrect data and plans to produce this entire fiasco bewilders me.

Quite frankly, I am astonished that anyone should be surprised by this revelation. This has been going on for years within consecutive government bodies and one wonders who are the genuine beneficiaries from their 'words of wisdom', the consultants themselves with their over inflated fee notes, or the opaque members of parliament of whom many will have some sort of association with companies who tender for the consultancy.

 

Ultimately, it's the tax payer who foots the bill for such extravagance. Mushrooms and manure come to mind.

[b0atman]

We are now paying over a million pounds a year for the staff on the HS2 project .

The people using this train will mostly be on company expenses which their firms offset against Tax so we will subsidise them to at least 20% of each ticket

Red hill marina turned down because of green belt But HS2 can go there

[Hawkmoth]

I'm usually for any modernisation, but in this case I reckon that it's just an ego trip for politicians, lawyers and developers.

For the saving of a few minutes on the journey the tax payers of this country will fork out billions on a project that only the rich will be able to afford to use.

The money could be much better spent on schools, hospitals and housing.

Bob

[Athy]

I'm usually for any modernisation, but in this case I reckon that it's just an ego trip for politicians, lawyers and developers.

For the saving of a few minutes on the journey the tax payers of this country will fork out billions on a project that only the rich will be able to afford to use.

The money could be much better spent on schools, hospitals and housing.

Bob

Ditto. I have loved trains and railways since my boyhood, not just vintage steam trains either - I was excited by my early trips on TGVs, but I can see no justification for this new line.

 

Greeno for you.

[cheshire~rose]

A train travels from one station to another and it is only in the places where there is a station allowing passengers to get on or off that any direct assistnace to the economy will be felt.

 

A high speed train has less stops and so any benefits or focussed n a few areas.

 

A boat travelling along the canal can stop anywhere and so small towns, villages and other businesses along find a direct benefit to their economy.

[cheshire~rose]

I am watching BBC Parliament to see the debate right now. I am looking forward to seeing what Natascha Engel has to say!