New Rules for Narrowbaots on the Thames Tideway starting Sept 1 st

[stuart]

.....calling one of the 30ft Armed Police RIBS that operate on the tideway. If you failed to stop , you would be considered a threat, either to the Houses of Parliament or the MI5 building with predictable consequences ....

 

You can see the paper headlines now, "3mph Narrow Boat Terrorists Attack MI5 "

[William Martin]

It seems pretty simple and logical to me - if you are a novice narrowboat handler like me you have to join an organised convoy - that seems entirely sensible to me. I have not yet taken my NB down to Limehouse but I have taken racing canoes down there many times and it is potentially a very dangerous place. I would consider myself an expert canoeist but I would never go down there without full safety gear and as part of a organised safety covered event. The potential for disaster is enormous - I will be down there again next month in the Great River Race steering an 8 man canoe and I dread the section just past Tower Bridge where we can get very close to sinking.

 

If on the other hand you are a seasoned NB expert who wants to solo the tideway, then you will just have to make the effort to get your VHF license.

[NB Willawaw]

Ernie,

 

Have you looked at this one ?

 

http://www.priorymoorers.org.uk/pirates/gmdss.htm

 

I dont know if Bedford is too far from your locale.

 

Mark

 

Many thanks Howard, very useful information.

 

Does anyone know of any training courses in or around Hertfordshire? I have had a search on the web but could not find anything. The closest I have found is Southampton direction which would require a hotel for the night.

 

For the sake of £75 or so for the one day course and £20 for the license, I would be very tempted to just go and do the course, it certainly can’t do any harm. I do intend to do the Thames at some point in the next two years so may as well just get it over and done with.

 

Regards

Ernie

[John Orentas]

I think a requirement to carry a VHF set is not too extreme but everyone must bear in mind, and it hasn't been made clear on hear that in order to get the appropriate license you will have to have have taken the usually one day course before you are permitted to use it. It isn't just a formality either there is quite a bit of work to do including learning the phonetic alphabet.

 

As for the rest of it, I think we can overdo the regulation, remember that boat driving tuition is much the same as that for for a car, it will only teach you only the learning starting points without hitting too many things in the process, I would doubt the value of such tuition for anyone who has a year or so experience.

 

Someone mentioned 'outrunning those river buses'. It is the river boat skippers that are in need of the tuition and a bit of discipline. Their macho aggressive driving will cause a serious incident one day and when it does happen their guilt will not be recognised because 'he is a very experienced skipper with 25 year unblemished record on the river'.

[Ernie]

Ernie,

 

Have you looked at this one ?

 

http://www.priorymoorers.org.uk/pirates/gmdss.htm

 

Thanks John,

 

I have just applied for a place on their course on Saturday 2nd September. They are just up the road from me.

 

Regards

Ernie

[anhar]

Those supporting this rule are not considering one major reason that it makes little sense - the 45' limit. That means that most privately owned boats on the Thames, being plastic or other river cruisers below that length, will not require the radios and operator's licences. Readers here are defending it as if it was universal for virtually all boats but it is very far from that as you can see.

 

Thus the rule discriminates against most narrowboats because they are over 45' which are actually a minority on the Thames and permits most cruisers, which are the majority of private boats, to do the tidal trip. Where is the sense in that? It seems to me that this has been ill thought through. When it was decided that boats over 45' should be brought under the radio rule, I expect that they were thinking of much broader and bigger boats whilst at the same time obviously wishing to exempt pleasure boats like most Thames cruisers. Surely a similar exemption should have been extended to narrowboats too.

 

Anyway, as a Londoner wanting to make the trip I guess I'll have to fall in line and get me a radio and operator's licence at some stage. If you can't beat 'em...

 

Looks like one of those hand jobs is the cheapest set available.

 

regards

Steve

Edited August 22, 2006 by anhar

[William Martin]

a 30 foot plastic is quiet a nimble and light boat, easily handled and generally having an excellent power to weight ratio, ie the ability to get out of a tight spot under pressure - a 58 foot narrowboat weighing in at 16 tonnes is a totally different proposition - it is heavy and ponderous and because of its length, more suceptible to strong currents. Unlike plastics it also runs the risk of flooding and sinking. Additionally, unlike a small plastic, narrowboats can sink to the bottom, making recovery very difficult.

 

Anything over 45 feet on the tideway is either A) big and commercial - or a narrowboat - which is inherrently unsuited to a Tideway and in need of close regulation.

[John Orentas]

 

Anything over 45 feet on the tideway is either A) big and commercial - or a narrowboat - which is inherrently unsuited to a Tideway and in need of close regulation.

 

 

I would disagree with much of that and my opinion was confirmed by the lock keeper at Limehouse he said that narrowboats cope better with swell that most other boats and he was including big GRP cruisers in that.

 

On the face of it a narrowboat is vulnerable to a 'beam on' swell or wash but in practise they rarely occur and when they do a slight change of course gets over the problem. When viewed from the stern of a narrowboat a large wave on the starboard bow is by definition counteracted by a roughly equal one on the port side further back down the boat. The longer the boat the more marked this counteraction is, there have been times when the bottom-plate of my boat has almost come into view but surprisingly the boat hardly rolls at all.

[William Martin]

Fact is - Foolish Ugly Plastic Gin Palaces were designed for rushing the gaumless and vain around the Med coastline, while Narrowboats were designed for 4 foot of still water. I know which one I would prefer to be in on a bad day below Tower Bridge - despite its tastless lack of aesthetics!

[Ernie]

Ernie,

 

Have you looked at this one ?

 

http://www.priorymoorers.org.uk/pirates/gmdss.htm

 

Course is now a confirmed and paid for booking.

 

I have been advised by the instructor that it is a very full day and it is expected that I be fluent in the Phonetic Alphabet before attending on the day.

 

Incase anyone else is interested:

Dear Ernie

 

This is to confirm your place on the RYA VHF Short Range Certificate Course to be held on Saturday 2nd September 2006 at the above address. A map of how to get here can be found on the internet at:

 

http://streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=515113...p=newsearch.srf

 

The course will start at 9.30am prompt and will finish by 5.30pm. Coffee, tea, and squash etc will be available from 9.00am and throughout the day. There will be a 30-minute lunch break at 12.30pm when a light lunch will be available but feel free to bring your own "pack-lunch" if you prefer if you have any special dietary requirements. The total cost is £92 ie £70 course fee, plus £22 fee to the RYA for the issue of your Certificate of Competence; you will need to bring a passport size colour photo (not Polaroid) with you on the day. Thank you for paying by credit card online.

 

Please note that due to the delicate electronic equipment used on the course, you are asked not to smoke inside the building.

 

It is worth doing some background reading before coming on the day. In particular, it would be worth learning the "phonetic alphabet" (alpha, bravo, charlie etc), a copy of which is enclosed, before you come as it is not always easy to pick it up in a couple of hours. The RYA book G22/02 "VHF Radio including GMDSS" is provided as part of the course fee and contains everything covered on the syllabus. I will also give you various other useful handouts.

 

If you have any further questions don't hesitate to call me on 01264 339751 (weekdays) or 01462 815524 (weekends) or e-mail mike.costello@priorymoorers.org.uk

 

Best start prctising my alphbet then !!

Edited August 22, 2006 by Ernie

[bottle]

Ernie

 

Here is three to be going on with

 

Bravo, and Foxtrot Oscar

 

[NB Willawaw]

Oh thats easy ! abel, baker, charlie, dog

 

Just hire a video of the Battle of Britain film !

 

P.S For those of you who take life very seriously, I do know that the phonetic alphabet was internationalised after WW2.

 

When I was at sea, they made us learn phonetics for numbers as well !!!

Mind you, we also had four letter ship callsigns starting with G then as well.

 

 

Best start prctising my alphbet then !!

Edited August 22, 2006 by NB Willawaw

[bottle]

Here is a link to the NATO one that is used in America and Europe.

Edited August 22, 2006 by bottle

[GUMPY]

Here is a link to the NATO one that is used in America and Europe.

 

Thats the right one.

Many years ago when my daughter was a toddler we used to talk in front of her as most parents do since if you talk quickly they cannot follow what you are saying.

After a while we had to switch to spelling the words to prevent her from understanding.

As she was nearing school age she leant to spell and managed to guess most of what we talked about. it was at this time we switched to using the phonetic alaphabet, it made concversations very longwinded but gave us another year of privacy........

 

J

[Ernie]

A bit additional info on the license fee, it's going to be Foxtrot Romeo Echo Echo

 

See: http://www.ybw.com/ybw/vhf/news_releases/2...084849icom.html

 

Looks like I am doing the course a month too early - story of my life!!

[NB Willawaw]

As I understand it, its the ships radio licence that will be free from 1st October.

 

Presumerably, you can do your ticket now which as you have already said, includes the RYA fee.

 

You can then apply for the boat radio licence after 1st October ?

 

Incidentally, the company that I work for sells a VHF which records the last conversation it received on a chip. If you miss somebody calling you or dont get the name (there is nothing worse than having to guess a pronounciation or say "station calling .. please say again" etc), you can just replay it.

How clever is that !!

 

Its far too expensive for a small leisure boat and its a bit big compared to some of the Japanese sets on the market, but dont you just love technology ?

 

A bit additional info on the license fee, it's going to be Foxtrot Romeo Echo Echo

 

See: http://www.ybw.com/ybw/vhf/news_releases/2...084849icom.html

 

Looks like I am doing the course a month too early - story of my life!!

[tony collins]

Howard,

 

Do you have the VTS channel number handy for the Tideway ? is it one channel all the way through between Limehouse and Teddington ?

 

 

CH14 Teddington to Crayfordness

CH68 Crayfordness to Southend

CH69 Further out (if you dare!)

 

It seems that Howard is sticking to his threat not to take any further part in this debate. A big pity!

 

 

Tony

[alan_fincher]

What nonsense.

 

All I was doing was expressing my objection to these rules because I believe that they will serve to prevent most narrowboats from making this trip for the reasons I gave earlier. I don't know about anyone else but I find that really regrettable.

 

Howard then chose, completely wrongly, to assume this was a personal attack on himself, I don't know why. I was objecting to the rules, not Howard's message, which I welcome, showing them here. So Howard, I wasn't meaning to attack you personally and you shouldn't take it that away. I make no apologies however for stating my objection to these new rules because most narrowboats will now be unable to make the trip, which must be one of the great experiences on the inland waterways. I really don't see what's wrong with my saying so.

Steve, whilst I often don't agree with you, equally, I've defended many of your forthright views on other topics.

 

Often your views are some of the best argued I see on the forum, even sometimes when I think you are wrong.

 

However, you do have this very direct way of expressing certain views, that comes across as "I'm right on this - there can be no argument...."

 

For example....

 

Howard, narrowboats have no use for VHF at all. It's never going to save their life or do anything except gather dust.

You may not have meant your wrath to be vented at Howard, but you seem equally to not accept his vast experience of the river, nor to want to consider his own views on this topic.

 

In my view, if he can give a reasoned view why VHF radio might well be of benefit to a narrowboat on the tidal Thames going to or from Limehouse, that's more than good enough for me.

 

To me the one oddity remains why boats under 45 foot should continue to be exempted. I'd have thought a 23 foot Springer with a 9HP outboard for power could get themselves into at least as much trouble as a longer boat.

 

Howard, you seem to have the total support of most of those posting, so please, please, continue to give us your valuable inputs.

 

Alan.

[tony collins]

narrowboats have no use for VHF at all. It's never going to save their life or do anything except gather dust. Steve

 

Steve, It just might. In the event of an emergency, the PLA could issue an "all ships" warning and every one would be aware of the situation and take the necessary action. Those relying on mobile phones for instance would be ok if they wanted to contact the authority, but if it were the other way round, could they be expected to telephone every boat?

 

With regard to the length thing, I suppose they have to draw the line somewhere, there may not be that many boats under 45ft making journey anyway. Perhaps the increasing numbers of narrowboats, not most stable of craft, have forced their hands.

 

The suggestion might have come from the regular users of the river themselves.

 

Tony

[William Martin]

"I'd have thought a 23 foot Springer with a 9HP outboard for power could get themselves into at least as much trouble as a longer boat"

 

 

Agile nimble little boat that rides over waves - quiet unlike a NB

[anhar]

Tony, Alan

 

When I said that nb's have no use for VHF, I meant on the rest of the system not on the Thames. How many times in their canalling lives are most narrowboaters going to do the tidal Thames? Unlike myself and a few others most nbers don't live in London. They are based largely in the Midlands or further north because that is where most of the canal system exists.

 

Consequently these people will want to do the Thames maybe once or twice in their whole life. Now, they will have to install VHF and get the operator's licence just for that one trip. They will very likely have no other use for it elsewhere on the system. That is why hardly any nbs have marine VHF, it is just not needed in general. The outcome will be that large numbers will be denied the trip because it is hardly worth getting the equipment just for that one time. Therefore a large number of nbers will lose the opportunity to make what must be one of the most memorable journeys on the inland waterways. This was my point. I was arguing for all those other boaters there to whom this trip will now be out of bounds. And yes I know the answer is for them to get the radios etc. but in practice they won't for the reasons I've given.

 

In a sense I'm okay because I'm a Londoner, always have been. It's my town so I'll likely want to make this journey on several occasions, round the GUPA and back up the Thames. In fact I live not far from Brentford. In my case I'll probably therefore go for the radio and licence because I'll make repeated use of it.

 

regards

Steve

Edited August 23, 2006 by anhar

[Callum]

Don't they use VHF for the manned locks on the Severn? and other rivers? Probably wrong but thought they did.

[Silkhay]

Don't they use VHF for the manned locks on the Severn? and other rivers? Probably wrong but thought they did.

Yes they do, and on most of the Glos / Sharpness Bridges and its a lot easier to use than the mobile phone, you don't have to remember the number

[Alistair]

Yes they do, and on most of the Glos / Sharpness Bridges and its a lot easier to use than the mobile phone, you don't have to remember the number

 

and talking on a VHF set is *free*. I can see this taking off: if narrowboaters are obliged to get a radio just for the tidal Thames, they may well use it to keep in touch with their friends and comrades elsewhere on the network...

[Grumpy Bear]

A point of clarification on the legal requirements for your Marine VHF set. There are two.

 

Firstly - the installation must be licensed ie you must get a Ships Radio Licence from Ofcom. This is free from 1st October provided you apply on line. There is an admin charge if you want to use post/paper.

 

Secondly, the operator (ie at least one person on board) must have a "Certificate of Competence and Authority to Operate". This is also sometimes confusingly called the VHF Licence or VHF Ticket. To get this you must complete the RYA/MCA Short Range Certificate Course and pass the exam. There is NO CHANGE to this requirement. The RYA currently charges £22 for issue of the certificate on behalf of the MCA; the cost of the course on top of this varies between training centres.

 

If you are only going to use the VHF on the inland waterways, then find a training centre that knows about inland waterways - otherwise you may well only get told about using radio offshore.

 

Hope this clears up any confusion. More details at Priory Moorers Website

Mike