Lees Narrowboats

[minerva]

Surely out of all the members on this forum, someone is legally trained?(to advise)....

 

To me, and as you state Moley, I think its getting to a point where indeed a solicitor should be involved with a build, It concentrates the mind a bit, knowing you could/would be nailed!...maybe it might make these fly by night companies think twice about things then....why should fly by nights have the legal protection, if they are a Ltd company? and who in gods thought up the "Ltd.," anyway? its just harbouring these people, is it not? its making it 'legal' for them to do this to customers, is it not?

[sail-it-away]

well a few including ours wanted a £500 deposit to book the build slot...but your right, the next one is mebbe £15-20K at least to get started....(on your build)

well a few including ours wanted a £500 deposit to book the build slot...but your right, the next one is mebbe £15-20K at least to get started....(on your build)

 

High there,

 

I realise that its a bit late to comment on this topic and perhaps it should start another but this story links to other misbehaiving companies that I feel need airing in order to warn others that may fall into thier hands along the way.

 

I would like to say something about the company in Morroco that LEES NARROWBOATS were dealing with.

 

I too was conned (it's the only word that fits) by the Managing Director of the company AGADIR YACHTS in MORROCO (I would like to use his name, as I feel that he is responsible for my plight, let me know if I have the right to) who led me to believe that he/his company would build Narrowboats for a company that I was setting up with a friend.

 

We are both familly men with young children and had a dream to build a company one that we could pass down through the ages, the idea was a good one, we believed in it but alas it was not to be.

 

In the January of 2006 I went to Morroco to finalise the deal, the agreement was that I would go halves with the M.D/Agadir Yachts who would build a 58ft narrowboat and I would organise everything in order to place it at the Crick Boat Show in May 2006.

 

Our company were due to pay a deposite of 10,000euros of which the M.D verbally accepted 7,300euros ( watch out for that one, get it on paper that they agree to accept this figure as your deposite otherwise (one year) later they will try useing it against you)

 

We were informed that construction had started, we set everything up including the mouring at the Crick Show.

I returned to Morroco in the March to see it under construction and came back with such high spirits for the future but it was not to be.

 

The end of April 2006 we started to hit a wall of silence, couldnt get the M.D on the phone, he was not answering emails or messages untill the 21st of May (the show was the 27th) a classic excuse ' a narrowboat for another client had fallen off of the back of a lorry' he needed to use the man power to repair it and thought there would have been time for the two.

 

We gracefully accepted his regrets and his promises to partisipate with all losses from the show he said that he would deliver the narrowboat in France which of coarse never happened, he offered the chance to recuperate losses by selling boats that were already finished in England, we had a buyer only to find that they were no longer available.

 

This is when the company name LEES NARROWBOATS first hit our ears, the M.D of AGADIR YACHTS wrote and told us that they were 'aparently crooks' he forgot to mention his companies involvement with them, we found this out at a much later date.

 

Aparently LEES NARROWBOATS had very similar dealings with AGADIR YACHTS, aparently being offered the exact same boats to sell as we were.

 

In the january of 2007 He wrote to us sayint that AGADIR YACHTS was merging with MARITAN once done he would be aible to talk financial issues.

 

After sending many email messages to which he responded with thrieghts of his solicitor we discovered in the March that the Company had once again changed it's name this time to HALIEUROP SHIP YARDS MARITAN All with the same Managing Director.

 

My point being that even with all the good intentions in the world No one can see into the future, if you are let down by the boat builder who have taken the deposites but not delivered the goods, you are left high and dry. A viscious circle for both client and salesman, as one person mentioned earlyer that buying an unbuilt boat is risky but it's hard once you have set off in search of your dream and payed over a certain sum (which no one would want to loose no matter how little) not to carry on to the end, unfortunaitly we have to put our trust in others in order to make our dreams come true.

 

We had to close our company before it even got off the ground our Dreams are Shattered, We have tried in vien for over a year now to recuperate the losses from the M.D who had promised to pay but as of yet it has not happened.

 

I thank the lucky stars that it was only us that lost out where our company was concearned, we got off lightly in the sircumstances as we could have quite easilly got stung along as others had, if the boat had arrived for the Show and we were lucky enough to get orders we too would have taken deposites of which we would have had to pay AGADIR YACHTS in order to start the building. They would not have delivered and we would have to pay back the deposits which we no longer had which would end in us being Bankrupt.

[WJM]

"My comments were directed towards actual boat builders who start fron scratch and have to buy steel costing thousands, then build a boat to your spec and requirements. Roles reversed I would want to see a whole load of commitment from my customer before the welder was arced up!"

 

 

 

and tomorrow Tesco will ask you for some money up front to buy the flour for the bread you will be buying next week! Dream on, a business that cannot support its own cash flow is very high risk, and not a place to store your unsecured money.

[blackrose]

I realise that its a bit late to comment on this topic and perhaps it should start another but this story links to other misbehaiving companies that I feel need airing in order to warn others that may fall into thier hands along the way.I would like to say something about the company in Morroco that LEES NARROWBOATS were dealing with.I too was conned (it's the only word that fits) by the Managing Director of the company AGADIR YACHTS in MORROCO (I would like to use his name, as I feel that he is responsible for my plight, let me know if I have the right to) who led me to believe that he/his company would build Narrowboats for a company that I was setting up with a friend.

I don't really understand how anyone in the UK would think they could do business with a company situated outside the EU - in North Africa, where they have few rights & prospects for legal recourse, and not realise that they stood a fairly good chance of being ripped off? By the way, did you know that there are also some business opportunities with Nigerians on the internet who say they want to use UK bank accounts to channel their funds? Sorry but the phrase "Mug Punter" springs to mind.

 

and tomorrow Tesco will ask you for some money up front to buy the flour for the bread you will be buying next week! Dream on, a business that cannot support its own cash flow is very high risk, and not a place to store your unsecured money.

Whilst agree in principal, in practice very few builders will not ask for a deposit & staged payments - even the big builders who one would have thought do not face cashflow problems. Edited November 13, 2007 by blackrose

[Gary Peacock]

The only advantage to be gained by building outside the UK is to be the first to do it.

 

Imitating those that did it first is a dangerous road to take and eventually when many are trying to do it there will obviously be a change in the market that will impact on those that first came up with the concept too.

 

The volume of narrowboat builders with now reduced sales is unsustainable the end results will be of no surprise whether they are built in the UK or not.

 

Too many boats too few customers obvious result.

Edited November 13, 2007 by Gary Peacock

[Bojangles]

Just be firm when negotiating.

 

I have recently ordered a hull and paid £500 deposit. The remainder to be paid when the hull is complete and I am satisfied etc.

 

I have negotiated for it to be fitted out by another Company. I've paid a £500 deposit and I've agreed to make stage payments after the work has been carried out and ownership of all fitted items has been passed to me.

 

Both Companies have been established for many years and fairly well known etc. If both of these reputable Companies go down the pan ( unlikely) I'll lose a grand max; I accept that risk.

 

Reputable boat builders understand a customers caution in parting with money on the basis of promises and possible 'flying pigs'. If, as a purchaser, you are proven to have the funds available and also be a serious and reliable a reputable boat builder does not want to lose your business and throw away potential profits. They will therefore negotiate terms with you.

[moggyjo]

Poland seems to be becoming a popular place for people getting their boats built

[Gary Peacock]

Poland seems to be becoming a popular place for people getting their boats built

 

 

Because it costs less than building them on Gordo's "Fantasy Island" these days!

[anthony]

My recent visit to Cheshire Narrow Boats comfirmed a lot of things about some boat builders to me.

 

I recall being told ''we all have different companies/businesses we have to protect ourselves'' what from bankruptcy Chris!!

 

Guess where im not buying a boat from?

Edited November 13, 2007 by anthony

[Gary Peacock]

My recent visit to Cheshire Narrow Boats comfirmed a lot of things about some boat builders to me.

 

I recall being told ''we all have different companies/businesses we have to protect ourselves'' what from bankruptcy Chris!!

 

Guess where im not buying a boat from?

 

 

You can have some real fun looking at the various identities boatbuilders have, two isn't unusual but some have many more! Rightly or wrongly it is a very common business tactic worldwide.

[Deepinvet]

I don't really understand how anyone in the UK would think they could do business with a company situated outside the EU - in North Africa, where they have few rights & prospects for legal recourse, and not realise that they stood a fairly good chance of being ripped off? By the way, did you know that there are also some business opportunities with Nigerians on the internet who say they want to use UK bank accounts to channel their funds? Sorry but the phrase "Mug Punter" springs to mind.

 

Whilst agree in principal, in practice very few builders will not ask for a deposit & staged payments - even the big builders who one would have thought do not face cashflow problems.

 

 

'I don't really understand how anyone in the UK would think they could do business with a company outside the EU.................WHAT I do find that very offensive and very ignorant! You are obviously still in the dark ages with regards to business, have you heard of a place called China? General Gordon was out there once!

 

I'm a builder (houses) and yes we do take a deposit and stage payments, and we turn work away everyday. Getting the money is the problem, it is a constant battle to get people to part with the hard earned. It doesn't matter what you build the basic principles are just the same.

The cash flow is even MORE important if you have a bigger company, you must have it to survive. The bigger you are doesn't mean the more money you have, just a bigger overdraft and bigger problems!!

 

As with any large investment ie car, house, boat, you would do your research surely. I'm also not surprised the Poles dutch germans are not getting in on the act and building boats, as they have probably far more experience than us at building canal boats. Well they do build nice cars.

 

Lets just put the boot on the other foot for a bit.

Say I was a boat builder, working in my yard on a bright Wednesday morning when old Joe Public walks in and says 'Lovelly boats mate can you build me one like that ? (65fter) 'Why yes of course I can'( I don't take a deposit as he looks very genuine and is very nice like most bargees are) So off I go buy in all the steel and other bits needed for the build, 6 months later boat finished phone Joe to tell him boat finished Joe says 'Sorry mate can't afford it now so I don't want it'

Now i've no idea what the legalities would be, and to be truthfull I don't care, the point is my £60,000 plus that was due in the bank yesterday is not going to be there, so my trusted hard working emplyees will not get paid, my suppliers will not get their money, my overdraft would not be reduced, wife can't have her hair done, dog gets kicked, kids get shouted at and my whole life generally goes tits up.

Now does that make me a mug punter or a mug builder?????????? Maybe I should't of taken that order for 10 boats from Africa.

Stuart M

[chris w]

You quoted Blackrose out of context he said, "I don't really understand how anyone in the UK would think they could do business with a company situated outside the EU - in North Africa, where they have few rights & prospects for legal recourse, and not realise that they stood a fairly good chance of being ripped off?"

 

You're surely not claiming that Morocco could be considered as certain as the EU in terms of risk???

 

I bought a new boat from "The New Boat Company" this year and paid a £1000 deposit, plus a stage payment when the hull was finished (~£20K) which I was able to see had been made, the title of which then reverted to me, followed by the final payment at handover. No hassle and a beautifully finished brand new boat in 4 months.

 

Chris

Edited November 14, 2007 by chris w

[Gary Peacock]

Without going into too much detail we were very well stitched up by a customer at the beginning of the year who just stopped paying because they had borrowed the money from a dodgy source and couldn't afford the repayments and interest. This was a very expensive boat and we were basically left in the lurch without work and a large reduction in income. Obviously it cost us a lot of money and if we had been a one boat at a time builder would have effectively put us out of business!

 

We also had a customer the year before who cancelled two weeks before the start date after having the boat on order for a year because he had just come back from his first ever trip on a canal and decided it wasn't to is liking! He carried on when we kept £500.00 of his £2K deposit to cover the work already done too!

 

Another customer simply vanished at the time the build was supposed to start and didn't reappear for nearly three years when he asked if his deposit was still valid!

 

I have worked with lots of customers in various jobs over the years, but boaters are probably the scariest to have to work with where money and reality is concerned.

[WJM]

"Reputable" and "Well Established" means absolutely NOTHING when you are dealing with a private limited company (or a partnership, or a sole trader).

 

If one of these businesses is going to simultaneously hold your money AND your asset then you are at risk.

 

Risks are a part of business but I think most people in the market for a boat are not in a position to contain big risks.

 

Despite this, I see private individuals taking enormous risks when they buy boats. These risks are far beyond anything a business or a bank would ever consider (high risk unsecured debtors). Unlike the private individual, businesses or banks could contain the risk if it went wrong, yet they dont go near them.

 

It is foolish to think that you can go in the day after your builder collapses and collect 'your asset' - even if you can find it, the liquidator may have a very different opinion on who owns it.

Edited November 14, 2007 by WJM

[NB Willawaw]

I have considered this at length through my career and have come to the opinion that leisure boaters generally are passionate about

their hobby and usually in love with their boats - a totally different attitude to those boaters who do it for a living.

 

This is all fine, but leisure boaters expect you to be equally passionate about their boats and when it comes to the time to charge them for goods or services, they seem to think that you should be giving them special concessions.

 

From what I've experienced, nothing that you've said surprises me.I can remember standing at the London Boat Show when prospective customers would arrive on the stand and proudly announce that they have a "Titwobbler 32".

 

I used to take great delight in asking them if that was motor or sail.

 

 

I have worked with lots of customers in various jobs over the years, but boaters are probably the scariest to have to work with where money and reality is concerned.

Edited November 14, 2007 by NB Willawaw