lister jp3

[ayit]

Hi Has anyone any info on a lister jp3 ie: apart from changing the oil how to look after it,cold weather starting etc., i,m just in the process of buying one and would like as much advice as pos?

[Hairy-Neil]

Hi Has anyone any info on a lister jp3 ie: apart from changing the oil how to look after it,cold weather starting etc., i,m just in the process of buying one and would like as much advice as pos?

 

Don't buy a 3.......

 

A JP2 is more than adequate to propell a loaded motor towing a loaded butty. A JP3 in a noddy boat will smoke coz it won't be working hard enough.

[GUMPY]

Don't buy a 3.......

 

A JP2 is more than adequate to propell a loaded motor towing a loaded butty. A JP3 in a noddy boat will smoke coz it won't be working hard enough.

 

Depends on the boat and the reduction gear......

Idleness ( my old boat) has a JP3 in it, it took a lot of careful changes to get it right.

For this I have assumed that the engine is a proper marine JP3 and not one of the generator mock ups.....

 

Tips before you buy....

 

Firstly on a 2:1 reduction you will need a propellor of at least 24 x 21 with 80% aspect blades. these are made by Crowther and if the boat hasnt got one you will need to get one or something similar.

If the reduction box isnt 2:1 or less walk away as replacements are hard to come by.

You will need to check how the engine is mounted if there is not substancial bracing from the engine beds to the sides of the boat and underneath the beds walk away.

You will need somekind of flexible coupling between the reduction box and the prop mine had a lorry propshaft.

 

I spent a lot of money getting the engine to run right and when I had finished you could place a cup of tea on it when it was running and it wouldnt spill and it didnt smoke.

 

Now for maintanance

 

every day

grease rocker gear

grease water pump (if its the origional one)

Check oil level

Check reduction gear oil

Check injector pump oil

 

Change oil every 450hrs ( 7 gallon)

cant remember the frequency for the pump and reduction

 

They start fine if the compression is OK

Very hard working and relable engine.

 

Things to do and not to do

dont try and start it in low compression unless its hot it wont start

Do run it in low when on rivers and running hard.

 

Things that go wrong

Diesel will leak through into the injector pump oil so it needs to be changed often.

 

 

Thats about it, its all from memory as I sold the boat 4 years ago

 

J

[DHutch]

I dont know a huge amount about vintage diesals, but i asked one of my mates whos a bit of a diesal-head, with a canal background, if he has anything to say, and he wrote the following. (hes not a member, yet, hence im posting it for him)

 

 

The lister JP series of engines are a war design which were as a result of a Joint Production between Listers and Ruston Hornsby. They make good engines and marine versions, originally fitted with a Lister Blackstone gearbox box were manufactured. These work well, but the gear change requires considerably more force than a modern day hydraulic box.The lister blackstone boxes rely on 2 clutches and a set of epycyclic gears (for reverse).

As with all engines of this vintage, there is a very low chance that the engine has done no work, some "standby" engines occasionally come up for sale, but most engines have had a long working life allready. It is important that you remember this when buying an old engine. Has the engine come from a reputable source, if it is old, then it will need to have been fully overhauled before it is put back to work. Has it come out of a boat, and if so ow long has it been in the boat, and in what configuration? Or has it just been re-built?

One think to be wary of is engines that have come out of sea-going boats. If installed properly, this would not be a problem, however, many such engines had raw sea water passesd through the cooling chambers! This is highly corrosive, and will mean that critical parts of the engine might be thinner than the manufacturer intended. It would be my advice to steer well clear of any engine that has had raw salt water passed through its cooling system.

 

A few other notes on the desing of the JP's, as far as I can remember:

 

They have water cooled silencers, this reduces noise and exhause temperature well.Often, a small drain cock is fitted to the top of this, to bleed air out of the engine circuit.

They often have external sumps, meaning more room is required.

The cylinder bores are chromium plated, this is good for runing, but the chrome has been known to corrode in some cases, THIS IS NOT GOOD!

They sound very very nice when they are running, especially the three cylinder ones.

 

Prior to your purchse I would advise:

 

Seeing the engine started FROM COLD, and watching to see how well it starts and runs. It is important that you check that the engine is cold prior to starting, very poorly engines can seem to run "ok" if they are allready hot. Listen to the engine as it starts, does the beat sound regular and even? How much smoke is there? Are there any "unpleasent sounds" such as a grinding or scraping sound? Hold your hand in the exhaust outlet gases for a few secconds, if it ends up covered in speckles of oil, then this engine is not for you! As the engine warms up,. touch the exhaust manifold next to each cylinder, do they warm up roughly evenly? If so, it proves that both cylinders are doing equal work. If not, it could just mean the fuel pump is set up wrong, or possibly, could be somthing more serious.

Do not expect a JP to have a clean exhaust when it is started, and even when running. Even when new, the combustion chamber design meant that the engines burnt slightly smoky. However, only a hint of gray should be visable when up to temperature, when under load, this oftern clears completly. The smoke during starting should get less and less as the engine warms. It might take considerable time for the engine to warm up with no-load on it.

 

If you can, use the throttle to reduce the speed of the engine slightly below tickover once it is warmed up. If it still runns happily, then this shows good compression. Do not do this for many secconds however, as it can mean critical parts become underlubricated.

 

On the point of Oil pressure, it is very wise to check this before buying. A reading of around 28 psi upon starting is good. But please consult others or a manual for the correct figures, I might be wrong. As the engine warms, the oil pressure will drop, due to a reduction in the viscosity of the oil, and greater clearencews between some parts. See that it does not drop below the manufactureres guidelines! Also, when tghe engine is stopped, watch the guage. Does it drop very slowly to zero, or does it plummit? If it is slow, it shows good working clearences, however if it suddenly goes from 20psi to 0psi in only a second or so, then be a bit more cautious.

 

Hope this advice is of help, and best of luck with your purchase.

I have done my best to keep everything accurate, and to my knowledge, this is correct. However, as there is possibility that I may be wrong, please do the sensible thing and ask around for other advice and check the validity of what I have said.

 

Best Wishes, Joe

 

Hope that Helps.

 

 

Daniel

[ayit]

Thanks to all for the info, loads for me to get my head round

and a few good questions for me to use before I settle the deal,

ie using seawater through it :

Its an original marine engine with the blackstone box but I

have been advised to change over to a p.r.m.hydraulic.

I think I'll print these answers and take them with me.

If ok I'm hoping to put it in a seventy ft sailaway. :cheerscheers:

Edited June 14, 2006 by ayit

[frangar]

If you do buy it and do change the blackstone box for a prm let me know as I might be interested in the blackstone box!!

 

Cheers

Gareth

[GUMPY]

Its an original marine engine with the blackstone box but I

have been advised to change over to a p.r.m.hydraulic.

 

 

I had a blackstone in Idleness and wouldnt have changed it for a PRM for love nor money.

Provided the "clutch" bands are OK its the finest box in the world.

 

J

[Liam]

I was speaking to an older couple a couple of years ago, they were working through the same locks as us..

 

They'd had a new boat fitted a couple of years ago, and the guy decided on having a Lister HR2 but chose a PRM box instead of a Blackstone box because his wife enjoys steering too, when he's doing the locks and the PRM box is easier to control, the Blackstone is a lot heavier when on a speed wheel/gearshift arrangement which is how these engines should be

 

Edited to add: Oh yeah, and I think the JP2 sounds quite a lot better than the JP3. The JP2 also lets you have a smaller engine room. Anybody ever seen a JP1 ? I've never seen one. Nor have I ever seen an SR1, HR1 etc. Did they actually make these?

Edited June 15, 2006 by Liam

[alan_fincher]

Anybody ever seen a JP1 ? I've never seen one. Nor have I ever seen an SR1, HR1 etc. Did they actually make these?

Don't know how accurate this is....

 

Link to external page

 

Confirms there was an SR1, ST1, etc.

 

Not sure I've ever seen a marinised one, but am fairly certain you used to see them on those small single sylinder dump trucks on building sites. (Used to seem to always be a Lister or a Petter in the old days, and they usually sounded quite "narrow-boaty...")

 

Would probably be adequate for cannal use in something quite small.

 

There also seems to be things like an FR1

 

But the answer to HA1, HR1, JP1, etc, seems to be a 'no'.....

 

Unless someone knows otherwise, of course.....

 

I have to admit if I had the money to have a boat with a vintage engine, it couldn't possibly have more than two cylinders.

 

Whilst some of these 3, 4, 6 etc jobbies may look spectacular, they just don't sound the way I just about remember the last of the working pairs...... (Many of them are just too OTT in power terms too, in my view....)

[GUMPY]

I was speaking to an older couple a couple of years ago, they were working through the same locks as us..

 

They'd had a new boat fitted a couple of years ago, and the guy decided on having a Lister HR2 but chose a PRM box instead of a Blackstone box because his wife enjoys steering too, when he's doing the locks and the PRM box is easier to control, the Blackstone is a lot heavier when on a speed wheel/gearshift arrangement which is how these engines should be

 

Edited to add: Oh yeah, and I think the JP2 sounds quite a lot better than the JP3. The JP2 also lets you have a smaller engine room. Anybody ever seen a JP1 ? I've never seen one. Nor have I ever seen an SR1, HR1 etc. Did they actually make these?

 

My Ex who was 5ft1 and under 7 stone could handle the JP speed wheel/gearshift no problem at all, its all down to how the gear stick is extended and the way the lever controls it.

 

As for a JP1 yes I have seen one and even heard it running.

There was one in a small tug that was at the Braunston show, the last year before it became the Crick show all I can say is want want want........

Edited to add: looking at that list it may have been a 9/1 but there is no visible difference.

 

Now how many have seen a JK4 I believe there was a six as well

 

 

JK descendent of the JP but very similar.

 

 

J

Edited June 15, 2006 by idleness

[ayit]

Ok then ,The boat builder who is selling the engine & box would never change at all !

Nearly had a heart attatk when I told him what I was planning.

The boatbuilder who is going to build the sailaway wants me to definitly change the box over

due to the likelyhood of breakdowns with the clutch bands which I have been told

are hard to come by.

.

Edited June 15, 2006 by ayit

[Liam]

I think you should generally be okay with the clutch.

 

The only problems I've heard of with regards to the clutch is mostly self inflicted. Yes, they do wear as nearly everything does on a boat, but if you drop the revs right down and wait for the shaft to either stop spinning, or be spinning very slowly before you engage reverse and then put the revs on you'll be fine.

 

There's a guy on our moorings who has an SR2 and drives his boat like a maniac, often changing from full ahead to full astern, by only changing the gears, and not the throttle. His clutch is on it's way out although our old boat was alot older and I think more used but didn't have any problems, as we always got the shaft spinning as slowly as possible before reversing the direction of rotation.

[GUMPY]

From memory the bands only affect reverse forward is a direct drive the clutch bands brake this to allow the lay shaft to come into play.

It should be possible to get the bands relined as all they really are is reversed brake shoes.

The box WILL make a lot of noise in reverse I have yet to hear a quiet one.

One other thing that goes is the adapter plate between the drive and the injector pump this manifests iself as a clicking noise in time with the revs.

Not a problem, I ran mine for 3 years like that until I got a new plate and just about every JP I hear go past the moorings has the same problem.

 

J

[Cafnod]

Relining friction bands is not an issue, never done them for a boat gearbox but replaced a lot of friction material in my time, still have the punches in one of my boxes somewhere. Would have thought any of the linings agents could do the job, Ferodo, Mintex etc, but no idea how hard the blackstone box is to strip to get at the clutch bands, not had my paws on one yet.

Edited June 16, 2006 by Cafnod

[makem0]

Could I ask what may seem a silly question to some of you who are more expert than me. I have recently purchased a Borg Warner gearbox 1:1 for my boat which is to be fitted with a JP3 engine should it be right hand or left hand or can you go either way like the PRM (with easy alteration) 302 I had previously. Hope I haven't made an expensive mistake. I went 1:1 on the advice of Crowthers who will be making my prop but didn't ask this particular question. Guess I need to know before they get my order or should I assume that they would know. Hope I make sense.

Edited June 28, 2006 by makem0

[Liam]

1:1 on a JP3, should be fun, hehe.

[makem0]

1:1 on a JP3, should be fun, hehe.

 

 

Very helpful, you are obviously an expert

[Liam]

Expert?

 

Nope, far from it actually. It's just that I always thought.. though I may be wrong that with a 2:1 gearbox, the engine "rotates" twice, and the prop, once.

 

With such a powerful engine, I thought that a 1:1 gearbox, you'd be flying along in tickover.

 

I may be wrong, and I bet I don't need to ask someone to let me know if I am

[makem0]

Expert?

 

Nope, far from it actually. It's just that I always thought.. though I may be wrong that with a 2:1 gearbox, the engine "rotates" twice, and the prop, once.

 

With such a powerful engine, I thought that a 1:1 gearbox, you'd be flying along in tickover.

 

I may be wrong, and I bet I don't need to ask someone to let me know if I am

Hi Liam,

I'm no expert either, my engineering skills are fairly limited...as is my narrowboat experience. My boat is being built as we speak and I decided to go with a JP3 engine purely on how it looks and sounds! On advice I bought a PRM 2:1 box (302D) and then I was informed by more than one genuine expert that as I could only swing an 18" propeller (max) that all I would get was a lot of froth and very little forward movement at acceptable revs. Crowthers the prop and stern gear experts have advised me that I need an 18 x 14 prop (to be worked out exactly before work starts) which will be specially made with oversize blades and that I should fit a 1:1 box this will compensate for the lack of propeller size (size does matter apparently). With a two to one reduction I would need a 31" prop and as I have only 21" clearence between skeg and uxter plate you can see my problem.

 

Still to get back to the original question...which way does a Lister JP3 turn. in other words do I need a right hand or left hand prop/gearbox. I've been offered a Borg Warner 1:1 which is right handed , someone else wants it so I'm trying to find out soonest.

 

Sorry to ramble and I hope my explanation makes sense.

Alan

[makem0]

Hi

[Richard Balaam]

Hi Liam,

I'm no expert either, my engineering skills are fairly limited...as is my narrowboat experience. My boat is being built as we speak and I decided to go with a JP3 engine purely on how it looks and sounds! On advice I bought a PRM 2:1 box (302D) and then I was informed by more than one genuine expert that as I could only swing an 18" propeller (max) that all I would get was a lot of froth and very little forward movement at acceptable revs. Crowthers the prop and stern gear experts have advised me that I need an 18 x 14 prop (to be worked out exactly before work starts) which will be specially made with oversize blades and that I should fit a 1:1 box this will compensate for the lack of propeller size (size does matter apparently). With a two to one reduction I would need a 31" prop and as I have only 21" clearence between skeg and uxter plate you can see my problem.

 

Still to get back to the original question...which way does a Lister JP3 turn. in other words do I need a right hand or left hand prop/gearbox. I've been offered a Borg Warner 1:1 which is right handed , someone else wants it so I'm trying to find out soonest.

 

Sorry to ramble and I hope my explanation makes sense.

Alan

 

A jp3 rotates clockwise, looking at the front of the engine. Therefore if it directly drove a propellor it would be anti clockwise. Make sense??

 

If the engine is fitted with a reduction box the screw would then be required to be a clockwise one.

 

Hope this helps

 

Richard