Got boat and now need an inverter

[Wobbly Dick]

I am in need of an inverter, or I should say, I think I need an inverter!

 

Moving on board soon to live, there is 240v sockets for use with landline and 12v lighting. I would like to keep energy consuption down to a minimum as I will be continually cruising.

 

I was wondering if it would be best to use 12v appliances, or go for standard 240v units and invest in an inverter. The problem is, if an inverter is the best option which to go for, pure or modified?

 

I will need a fridge, tv and laptop, so what is the best thing to do?

[Canal Shop Man]

I am in need of an inverter, or I should say, I think I need an inverter!

 

Moving on board soon to live, there is 240v sockets for use with landline and 12v lighting. I would like to keep energy consuption down to a minimum as I will be continually cruising.

 

I was wondering if it would be best to use 12v appliances, or go for standard 240v units and invest in an inverter. The problem is, if an inverter is the best option which to go for, pure or modified?

 

I will need a fridge, tv and laptop, so what is the best thing to do?

For lowest consumption - 12v TV, 12v Fridge and laptop running off car charger (12v)

 

For cheapest price - 240v Fridge, TV and Laptop Charger off Quasi sine wave inverter

[DHutch]

The 12v appliences (shoreline fridge/caravan tv/etc) do seam to be a little bit more effecent.

- Plus you dont have the ineffecentys of the inverter, and its stand-by current draw.

 

However as canalshopman says, it does tend to be cheaper to got down the 240v route, rather than get hugly stung by the prices of 12v goods.

 

Also not all laptops have a 12v travel charger option, and these also usally cost a fair bit.

 

Also, its worth noting not all appliences will tollerate Quasi or Modifyed Sinewaves.

 

 

 

Daniel

[Wobbly Dick]

Cheers for advice guys

 

It sounds as if an inverter would be a good idea and I suppose the power used wouldn't vary much when running tv, laptop because they are stepped down to 12v anyway. The fidge would use more, but not an amount that I would need to worry about, would it?

 

So next question, I now have a choice of Quasi, modified or pure sine wave and what about size?

[Moley]

The fridges from Limekiln are excellent. Domestic fridges, professionally converted with Danfoss compressors a-la Shoreline.

 

Ours is a full size fridge with a decent ice box, cost £360, draws one amp hour but obviously cuts out when it's down to temperature, and ran beautifully for 3 days when, with hindsight, all our power was being drawn from an 88Ah starter battery.

 

Flat panel LCD TVs all seem to have transformers down to 12v. Not bought one yet, but Tescos have a nice one for about £170.

 

No idea whatsoever about computers.

[Wobbly Dick]

Ta Moley

[ChrisPy]

seems to me that the Sterling 1500W pure sine wave inverter is good value, and should handle most loads you will ever throw at it without mis-function. Mine will be the combi (charger) version. Price looks good at e.g. Midland Chandlers.

[Guest]

We went for Sterling 3kw pure which I think is good value. It has run everything fine to date. It can flatten batteries rapidly though at high loads. In standby mode the power drain is minimal. Overall we are very pleased with it, but the fan is a bit noisy. Also the instructions are a bit sketchy, but to be fair Sterling are extremely helpful if you phone/email.

[Richard Bustens]

Remind me Cat im'e sure it is somewhere on the forum but how big is your domestic battery bank?

[Guest]

Remind me Cat im'e sure it is somewhere on the forum but how big is your domestic battery bank?

Richard:

550 a/h (5x110 sealed jobs cant remember the make). I think I may have said 660 a/h once-put it down to advancing years.

[Richard Bustens]

What is the most you run off the inverter and how long does it run it for?

[Gary Peacock]

If you can afford then pure sine Mastervolt or Victron are the best bet.

Most of the cheap units can be traced back to the same factories in the far east and generally are fairly poor if you intend using them seriously.

 

Inverter/Chargers make very good sense the charger element of the units are often far cleverer then the stand alone chargers you see used.

 

Sounds like I am being biased since I sell the things but in another job I used to fit them for use as UPS's and we rapidly arrived at the same conclusion when the cheap brands would often cease in a cloud of smoke and the number of PSU failures on PC's running off them began to go off the scale.

 

You can find information on Mastervolt & Victron HERE

 

This new unit from Victron is quite interesting EASYPLUS

 

On the downside unfortunately the best kit doesn't come cheap.

 

Some people say Stirling are good all I can say is maybe they are now!

[anhar]

Hello Dick

 

I'd advocate going for a pure sine wave job if you want to have 230v throughout the boat for a range of appliances. The extra cost has to be worth it because you never know if a lower quality of output might cause certain sensitive appliances not to work properly and you don't want to find that out after having gone to the expense and trouble of fitting the thing. This is a situation where you want the very best you can afford having regard to all present and future uses that you might want. Bear in mind though that for a powerful inverter you need a decent battery bank. It's no good having just one leisure battery if you are running power hungry mains appliances because it would be run down too quickly.

 

I'm going for a combined model on my boat, a Victron Multiplus which is a sophisticated three way comination of inverter/battery charger/auto changeover switch. When on the shoreline it automatically balances the demand between charging the batteries and appliances that are on at the time. Disconnecting the shoreline then operates the changeover switch so that any appliances that are on continue operating off the inverter without interruption but now powered by the batteries. It's got many other features such as the ability to plug in a small 230v generator like the Honda suitcase models and treat that like shoreline power, compensating automatically for any over or under power by charging/discharging the batteries depending what appliances are in use.

 

Not cheap but Victron or its competitor Mastervolt which offers similar products are two of the top leading brands from what I've researched.

 

regards

Steve

Edited June 9, 2006 by anhar

[DHutch]

Yeah, the Victron combi/ups units look very good.

- Dont have any expecence with them, but if i was fitting out from scratch i would alsmost certainly go for one of them. Kiss.

 

 

Daniel

[Guest]

What is the most you run off the inverter and how long does it run it for?

We can do a full wash cycle with a cold fill Candy washer, providing of course the batteries are fully charged (that is another story). The 240v fridge freezer will run overnight without probs. the biggest thing is volt drop as the inverter approaches full output despite the huge cables. The OCM doesn't understand the 3kw limitations yet.

[Wobbly Dick]

Thanks everyone for your guidance!

 

As you know, I have been looking into the difference between modified and pure sine waves; it seems that most of the problems centered around clocks!

 

Digging a bit deeper, it seems that it is the wave form that is the problem and not the rating. The modified wave is basically a decreasing and increasing voltage, that mimics the AC, that is produced by a decreasing and increasing square wave pattern.

 

A square wave is either on or off, one voltage or another, and it is this that causes the problem with clocks and other related timing circuits ie, DVD, PCs, Microwaves etc.

 

A pure sine wave inverter mimics the true sine wave of the AC and therefore does not have this problem.

 

I will be getting a pure sine wave inverter.

 

So now which one

Edited June 10, 2006 by Wobbly Dick

[JohnOnTheWey]

 

So now which one

 

I have to say I'm following this thread with great interest, but I also have to say I'm feeling pretty staggered by the price of the pure sine wave jobs. Is there no way to stick some kind of magic black box between the bog-standard inverter and the appliance (eg. laptop) which you are using to protect against the vagaries of non-sine-wave output. I keep thinking about a sort of sophisticted UPS arrangement which, to my non-techie mind, would use some electronic magic to ensure a standard output. Well OK, not UPS exactly but something along those lines.

 

Be aware, I'm a complete ignoramus in this area but I'm dead keen to learn.

 

John

[Cafnod]

The 12v appliences (shoreline fridge/caravan tv/etc) do seam to be a little bit more effecent.

- Plus you dont have the ineffecentys of the inverter, and its stand-by current draw.

 

However as canalshopman says, it does tend to be cheaper to got down the 240v route, rather than get hugly stung by the prices of 12v goods.

 

Also not all laptops have a 12v travel charger option, and these also usally cost a fair bit.

 

Also, its worth noting not all appliences will tollerate Quasi or Modifyed Sinewaves.

Daniel

 

Hi Dan

Maplin among otheres do a gadget that has allowed me to run my last three laptops (one destroyed in an accident, another stolen) from a 12vdc source with no problems. The adaptor cost less than £20.

 

 

We went for Sterling 3kw pure which I think is good value. It has run everything fine to date. It can flatten batteries rapidly though at high loads. In standby mode the power drain is minimal. Overall we are very pleased with it, but the fan is a bit noisy. Also the instructions are a bit sketchy, but to be fair Sterling are extremely helpful if you phone/email.

 

My own dealings with sterling are not the best Stan, I have had very few replies to emails, none of which were coherent when I needed customer support or information. I called in, and they say callers welcome and I was told to go away by someone who was very unhelpful and did not speak English very well.

 

Hello Dick

 

I'd advocate going for a pure sine wave job if you want to have 230v throughout the boat for a range of appliances. The extra cost has to be worth it because you never know if a lower quality of output might cause certain sensitive appliances not to work properly and you don't want to find that out after having gone to the expense and trouble of fitting the thing. This is a situation where you want the very best you can afford having regard to all present and future uses that you might want. Bear in mind though that for a powerful inverter you need a decent battery bank. It's no good having just one leisure battery if you are running power hungry mains appliances because it would be run down too quickly.

 

I'm going for a combined model on my boat, a Victron Multiplus which is a sophisticated three way comination of inverter/battery charger/auto changeover switch. When on the shoreline it automatically balances the demand between charging the batteries and appliances that are on at the time. Disconnecting the shoreline then operates the changeover switch so that any appliances that are on continue operating off the inverter without interruption but now powered by the batteries. It's got many other features such as the ability to plug in a small 230v generator like the Honda suitcase models and treat that like shoreline power, compensating automatically for any over or under power by charging/discharging the batteries depending what appliances are in use.

 

Not cheap but Victron or its competitor Mastervolt which offers similar products are two of the top leading brands from what I've researched.

 

regards

Steve

 

 

It does seem to do a lot of things for you and I am sure it makes life very convenient if you just wish to emulate the national grid whilst on a narrowboat. But I wonder as to long term reliability, also can these be easily repaired?

To do the things this piece of equipment does would require a fairly intelligent CPU and I wonder what happens when that starts to give problems. Many of the PCB's are now machine made and irrepairable.

Especially as it mixes 240 from inverter and national grid through the shoreline. Should it gowrong and backfeed into the national grid, and this can happen that is why generator/mains switches have to be make before break then a lot of expensive damage can ensue and guess who would be liable?

 

I have to say I'm following this thread with great interest, but I also have to say I'm feeling pretty staggered by the price of the pure sine wave jobs. Is there no way to stick some kind of magic black box between the bog-standard inverter and the appliance (eg. laptop) which you are using to protect against the vagaries of non-sine-wave output. I keep thinking about a sort of sophisticted UPS arrangement which, to my non-techie mind, would use some electronic magic to ensure a standard output. Well OK, not UPS exactly but something along those lines.

 

Be aware, I'm a complete ignoramus in this area but I'm dead keen to learn.

 

John

 

Hi John

It is not really worthwhile to try and clean up the output of a cheaper inverter in all honesty, but it is not that difficult to build a decent sine wave output in the first place, the reason for the massive price discrepancy is the usual so called 'market forces' exploitation, you can be charged more for one that works properly and runs your appliances without risk of damage. Or you can pay less for something that will not work properly, is inefficient and possibly dangerous, I do not know of any actual brands but a fair few have gone bang and started pouring out smoke.

Edited June 11, 2006 by Cafnod

[NB Willawaw]

You get what you pay for..

I believe this to be true with inverters.

 

If its wrong to mention companies who provide bad service - is it also equally bad to praise companies

who provide good service.

 

After all, it could be a one off fluke and the other competitors might suffer as a result ?

 

Why is it okay to praise good companies but not slag off the bad ones ?

I am afraid we are becoming litigation crazy just like the states.

 

Mark

Edited June 11, 2006 by NB Willawaw

[Cafnod]

You get what you pay for..

I believe this to be true with inverters.

 

If its wrong to mention companies who provide bad service - is it also equally bad to praise companies

who provide good service.

 

After all, it could be a one off fluke and the other competitors might suffer as a result ?

 

Why is it okay to praise good companies but not slag off the bad ones ?

I am afraid we are becoming litigation crazy just like the states.

 

Mark

 

Hi Mark

I am only mentioning my personal experience. I am not stating that I have had any trouble with any product or that I regard the products sold by them as inferior to others.

I have never had an inverter on a boat, either portable or permanantly installed.

[Breals]

Wobbly - I have been running my laptop and flatscreen TV, DVD player, radio and computer speakers for about a year from a 600W basic inverter that cost 25 quid from Maplins. This seems a similar range of equipment to that which you will be using, so don't waste your money on the expensive sine wave inverters. If you decide you need to run other appliances, you can always check the compatibility and see whether you need to get one of these inverters - but I suspect as in my case the cost would be prohibitive anyway. Who needs washing machines and microwaves? There's always the laundrette and the cooker.

 

I'm not sure whether an inverter like mine would run a 240v fridge (although it runs my 3-way on 240v when cruising) but there's always the 12v option.

 

One word of advice is to locate the inverter as close as poss. to the battery bank. Mine won't work at the far end of the boat, through the cigarette lighter, because of the drop in voltage. Now its at the back and wired directly to the batts.

Edited June 11, 2006 by Breals

[Keeping Up]

Wobbly - I have been running my laptop and flatscreen TV, DVD player, radio and computer speakers for about a year from a 600W basic inverter that cost 25 quid from Maplins. This seems a similar range of equipment to that which you will be using, so don't waste your money on the expensive sine wave inverters. If you decide you need to run other appliances, you can always check the compatibility and see whether you need to get one of these inverters - but I suspect as in my case the cost would be prohibitive anyway. Who needs washing machines and microwaves? There's always the laundrette and the cooker.

 

I'm not sure whether an inverter like mine would run a 240v fridge (although it runs my 3-way on 240v when cruising) but there's always the 12v option.

 

One word of advice is to locate the inverter as close as poss. to the battery bank. Mine won't work at the far end of the boat, through the cigarette lighter, because of the drop in voltage. Now its at the back and wired directly to the batts.

The difficulty is always in establishing compatability in advance. Manufacturers are rarely very helpful.

 

A few years ago I treated myself to a nice new Sony TV, only to find that it wouldn't run off a 'modified sine wave' inverter but needed a full sine wave because otherwise there were nasty light-and-dark lines on the picture. So I bought a sine-wave inverter, only to discover that the TV had a HUGE switch-on surge that the inverter couldn't cope with (over 800 watts for about a second). Luckily the company I bough the inverter from were very understanding and let me take the TV into their shop in Leicester and try it out on their range of inverters to find the best one, then gave me a 100% credit on the inverter against the new one.

 

Definitely it pays to put it where the 12v wires will be as short as possible.

[NB Willawaw]

Sorry you misunderstand me (Im very misunderstood you know!).

 

I am mixing posts and really referring to the toilet supplier complaint thread raised by Gary.

Its a bit tongue in cheek - all I was saying about the issue of shaming makers is if you cant name and shame the bad boys, should you be able to praise the good boys - isn't it just the reverse side of the coin. Nothing much to do with inverters really.

 

ON THE SUBJECT OF INVERTERS

 

I have started a poll as Im intrigued as to what the market comprises of make-wise and whether people are satisfied.

 

Mark

 

Hi Mark

I am only mentioning my personal experience. I am not stating that I have had any trouble with any product or that I regard the products sold by them as inferior to others.

I have never had an inverter on a boat, either portable or permanantly installed.

[GUMPY]

Couldnt answer the poll as I have two inverters.......

For normal loads when out cruising its a sterling 1500 Pure sine wave.

This is the only one of the two inverters that will run the washing machine (on cold wash only)

and the stereo.

For larger loads there is a Heart interface that is a 2500 MSW inverter charger that is used all the time when connected to a landline as it has a straight through bypass built in and keeps the batteries float charged.

 

The Sterling I have is not built by Sterling but a badged unit from Prosine IIRC.

 

 

J

[NB Willawaw]

Sorry Idle,

 

You just can't get the staff these days, but I could hardly have a special radio button for those of you with two inverters, could I ??

 

As neither are made by Sterling, you could have ticked the something else category I suppose

Edited June 11, 2006 by NB Willawaw