Diesel Price

[Nickhlx]

From 23/3/11 the rates before 5% VAT were ......

 

Full duty 57.95p

Rebated Rate 11.14p

Difference 46.81p

 

With 5% VAT they become

 

Full duty 60.85p

Rebated Rate 11.70p

Difference 49.15p

 

So, (in round numbers), you should be paying 49 pence per lite more for propulsion diesel than non-propulsion diesel

 

It looks to me from the HMRC site that these duty rates are scheduled to increase on 1st August 2012, at which point the difference will become more like 52 pence per litre.

 

Full duty 60.97p

Rebated Rate 11.72p

Difference 49.25p

 

With 5% VAT they become

 

Full duty 64.02p

Rebated Rate 12.31p

Difference 51.71p

 

You don't have to declare 100% propulsion for a "boat with no heaters", of course, as you are allowed to use the lower rate for electricity generation.

 

Thanks for the very comprehensive explanation...

 

What it also means though is....

 

Red diesel bought for propulsion is now costing... assuming a base price of say 80p per litre, a whopping (80 + 61) = 141p per litre. This is for Red diesel, that from some

canalside tanks with lower turnover, and possibly being used to chuck in old engine oil etc, compared to now several pence less for high turnover white diesel from the forecourts.

 

Naturally there is the convenience factor to consider, but when the option presents itself, those selling at 90p / litre are some 15p a litre more expensive than "pump diesel", which to me is a lot more "desirable" than some of the less than appealing installations on the canalside selling Red, and will definitely be noted to avoid ...

 

Nick

Edited May 17, 2012 by Nickhlx

[Liam]

Hi Nick,

 

Whilst I can understand your view point in terms of cost from filling up your tank from the various retail outlets canal-side, I'm going to have to say that your point regarding the less appealing installations I don't necessarily agree with.

 

I do appreciate that there are more than a few seemily unattractive points where you could choose to fill up, but I would say that in the bog standard garage forecourt, although they do have a high turner over of fuel, the tanks are nearly always buried under ground and are usually at least several thousand litres in size.

 

I operate a trading coal boat and also retail diesel, so you could say I do have an interest in this! The tank I currently have on the boat is a plastic tank and although a couple of thousand litres in size, the current 'stock' is always being replenished. On average, with only working weekends at the moment, I can easily empty the tank on a Saturday, and usually do. I refill every weekend so I'm always running with 'fresh' stock.

 

With the tank being placed in Ariel's hold it is easily inspected for any contaminents. If any were to be found, then it's a really simple job to remove the tank, clean it and replace it into the boat. You've not go idea what is coming from a tank that's in the ground.

 

If you look at the current cost of red diesel (gas oil) at the moment there really is no excuse to be charging anything in the £0.90's, never mind over the £1 mark!

[alan_fincher]

What it also means though is....

 

Red diesel bought for propulsion is now costing... assuming a base price of say 80p per litre, a whopping (80 + 61) = 141p per litre.

How come ?

 

I have just explained that propulsion diesel ought to be just over 49 pence more than non propulsion diesel.

 

So if the base price for non-propulsion id 80p, then the propulsion price should be £1.29. I think you will struggle to buy white diesel from a garage for £1.29.

 

This is for Red diesel, that from some canalside tanks with lower turnover, and possibly being used to chuck in old engine oil etc, compared to now several pence less for high turnover white diesel from the forecourts.

 

A popular idea to trot out that you are buying stuff which has been contaminated with something other than red diesel, but I would politely suggest you don't have a jot of evidence for that. As a generic allegation, it would seem an unfair slur on the typical canal supplier.

 

There may be some validity in arguments of low turnover, but I would suggest many boat owners actually leave the fuel in the less than ideal conditions of their own boat tanks, for far greater periods than it is likely to have been in the tanks of a typical marina or fuel boat, (fuel boats fill up remarkably often, because their own tanks are not that large).

 

For example, although I put a large fill in "Sickle" on the Shroppie, because it is cheap there, the record shows the last lot went in about 10 months ago, and that that fill was also into a tank with a fair amount of existing fuel in. undoubtedly some of the current mix pre-dates us buying the boat.

 

Another consideration, if you are obsessed with what you are buying, is that anything bought from a garage forecourt will definitely contain a component of biofuel - something which seems to worry a lot of people if it is going to sit in a boat tank. Some of the canal-side outlets are claiming to be able to supply "red" that doesn't contain any biofuel.

[Nickhlx]

Hi Liam..

 

I know I was being a little cynical there, but made special point of suggesting that the issue might be found on a canalside outlet, rather than "generally" as I know you guys do a sterling job, do have a good turnover and make a special point about striving to ensure the fuel remains in great condition... It is the very occasional and usually expensive, (fixed) canalside supplier that concerns, usually because of the price, but if the installation doesn't inspire confidence either it makes you wonder .... The great majority I am sure are completely fine.... With Red costing around 70p a litre or less in larger quantities, much more than 80p (base) seems un-necessary if the majority can sell for that, but I guess they are in a business to make profit and people will not buy if they don't have to and market forces will usually prevail......

 

to Alan...

 

The reason was that I read your explanation on price breakdown as "full duty with VAT added is currently 60.85p" as being what was needed to be added to the base price when declaring 100% for propulsion - From your reply it seems that even 100% propulsion is partially rebated, and only 49.15p is added to the base price for 100% propulsion.. Thanks for the correction...

 

Forecourt diesel around here is still falling and currently around 137p / L, so yes, still above the price of "100% Red ".... when correctly calculated... I was aware that forecourt white does now contain bio-diesel, and has for a while, and that does accelerate the taking on of moisture, which I agree is a disadvantage for vessels with slow turnover / big tanks. I will keep an eye out for an outlet claiming bio-free Red...

 

Nick

[LEO]

Hi,

 

It's interesting comparing fuel costs. Perhaps some outlets are slightly more expensive than others but I always try to support the fuel boats. Two who service the summit and lower GU provide a good service 12 months of the year.

 

Particularly useful in the winter when some live-aboards and the fuel boats are frozen in - they will deliver diesel,coal and Calor gas by van and barrow to help out.

 

They also sell sundries such as toilet chemicals.

 

One even accepts credit cards.

 

No connection - just a satisfied customer.

 

Leo.

[Roger Gunkel]

The old myth about some canalside outlets disposing of waste oil in their red diesel tanks, is just that- a myth. This is not a dig at Nick though as he is airing a fairly widely held view. When I had my diesel heating problems a few years back, the accusation of using contaminated fuel from dubious canalside outlets was widely used by the manufacturers as a reason for early failure of Webasto and Eberspacher heaters run on red diesel. Disposing of waste oil into the tanks was quoted to me by a senior manager from Eberspacher. My diesel supplier threatened to take legal action against them.

 

I think the whole suggestion of waste oil in the tanks comes from the fact that a number of older engines were able to run on a mix of diesel and waste oil which some owners may well have used in their own tanks., and perhaps with farm storage for agricultural machinery. There may well have been the odd case of owners of boats adding oil, then finding their heaters packed up. I don't think there are any cases of canalside outlets being proven to have followed this practice and why should they? After all, most would also use that fuel in their own boats and wouldn't want to cause themselves expensive problems.

 

Roger