LILO Liveaboards' Gathering

[JDR]

I think the issue of human population is a perfectly valid topic for discussion in relation to environmental issues. I think a distinction has to be made between the social Darwinist ideas of the late 19th century and the idea of Eugenics , now thankfully discredited after it was taken to its logical conclusion in the 1940s and the idea of what effect an increasing human population might have on the demand for scarce resources.

 

It could be argued that human beings stopped living in a sustainable manner with the beginning of agriculture and the production of surplus food, but having a vested interest, the idea of returning to hunter gathering and dying at the ripe old age of thirty shivering in a cave doesn't appeal greatly.

 

The idea of living in a society where quotas are applied to children allowed doesn't appeal to me either so I'm not offering any solutions short of making birth control widely and freely available to anybody who wants it.

Edited February 23, 2012 by JDR

[blackrose]

I think the issue of human population is a perfectly valid topic for discussion in relation to environmental issues. I think a distinction has to be made between the social Darwinist ideas of the late 19th century and the idea of Eugenics , now thankfully discredited after it was taken to its logical conclusion in the 1940s and the idea of what effect an increasing human population might have on the demand for scarce resources.

 

It could be argued that human beings stopped living in a sustainable manner with the beginning of agriculture and the production of surplus food, but having a vested interest, the idea of returning to hunter gathering and dying at the ripe old age of thirty shivering in a cave doesn't appeal greatly.

 

The idea of living in a society where quotas are applied to children allowed doesn't appeal to me either so I'm not offering any solutions short of making birth control widely and freely available to anybody who wants it.

 

Yes, I agree with all of that - besides people deliberately choosing not to have children I really don't know how population control can be implemented. Nobody wants authoritarian measures, so we depend on greater education, women's emancipation in developing countries, greater availability of birth control, etc. Whatever the solutions entail it's certainly about time we started talking about it and taking the issue seriously.

[carlt]

women's emancipation in developing countries,

Presumably that would include a woman having the freedom to choose to have children, or are we picking and choosing what gets emancipated?

[blackrose]

Presumably that would include a woman having the freedom to choose to have children, or are we picking and choosing what gets emancipated?

 

Of course it includes free choice - but the fact is that educated & emancipated women in developing countries who have access to contraception generally choose to have fewer children.

 

Edit: Or perhaps I should say women who have access to education and achieve a greater degree of emancipation...

Edited February 23, 2012 by blackrose

[carlt]

Of course it includes free choice - but the fact is that educated & emancipated women in developing countries who have access to contraception generally choose to have fewer children.

 

I'd like to see your figures and references for that.

[blackrose]

I'd like to see your figures and references for that.

 

I don't have figures & references, but I thought it was common knowledge?

 

I'll look some up...

 

Edit: Here's one which looks at the results of studies in 26 countries. I've only read the abstract.

 

Abstract

This article presents an updated overview of the relationship between women's education and fertility. Data from the Demographic and Health Surveys for 26 countries are examined. The analysis confirms that higher education is consistently associated with lower fertility. However, a considerable diversity exists in the magnitude of the gap between upper and lower educational strata and in the strength of the association. In some of the least-developed countries, education might have a positive impact on fertility at the lower end of the educational range. Yet, compared with patterns documented a decade ago, the fertility-enhancing impact of schooling has become increasingly rare. The study also examines the impact of female education on age at marriage, family-size preference, and contraceptive use. It confirms that education enhances women's ability to make reproductive choices.

 

http://www.jstor.org/pss/2137845

Edited February 23, 2012 by blackrose

[carlt]

I don't have figures & refereces, but I thought it was common knowledge?

 

I'll look some up...

I thought it was common knowledge that the Catholic Church had got the developing world pretty much sewn up, making secular aid organisations despair at their inability to convince people to wear condoms, though their motives are more steered towards saving, rather than preventing lives.

[blackrose]

I thought it was common knowledge that the Catholic Church had got the developing world pretty much sewn up, making secular aid organisations despair at their inability to convince people to wear condoms, though their motives are more steered towards saving, rather than preventing lives.

 

I'm sure you're right about that too. What you're saying and what I'm saying aren't mutually exclusive.

[carlt]

I don't have figures & references, but I thought it was common knowledge?

 

I'll look some up...

 

Edit: Here's one which looks at the results of studies in 26 countries. I've only read the abstract.

 

You missed the bit that says that such a fall in fertility relies on economic improvement and that modest improvements in education, in the poorest countries, often resulted in a rise in fertility?

 

So we need to send them condoms, money and shut the god botherers up.

 

Considering our attitude to foreigners and "charity begins at home" what are the chances?

[blackrose]

You missed the bit that says that such a fall in fertility relies on economic improvement and that modest improvements in education, in the poorest countries, often resulted in a rise in fertility?

 

I may have missed that bit, but did you miss the bit that said: The analysis confirms that higher education is consistently associated with lower fertility?

Edited February 23, 2012 by blackrose

[carlt]

I may have missed that bit, but did you miss the bit that said: The analysis confirms that higher education is consistently associated with lower fertility?

Evidently it is already contradicting itself on the first page, unless "higher education" means university which doesn't seem to have worked in this country.

[blackrose]

Evidently it is already contradicting itself on the first page, unless "higher education" means university which doesn't seem to have worked in this country.

 

I don't think it contradicts itself. The main findings are that higher education is consistently associated with lower fertility. It then goes on to state some caveats, some of which you picked up on.

[carlt]

I don't think it contradicts itself. The main findings are that higher education is consistently associated with lower fertility. It then goes on to state some caveats, some of which you picked up on.

Those caveats being poverty that is one hell of a caveat if you are looking at the developing world, wouldn't you say?

[blackrose]

Those caveats being poverty that is one hell of a caveat if you are looking at the developing world, wouldn't you say?

 

 

Where are you getting that from? I can only see the abstract and the first page and I can't see what you're referring to?

[carlt]

Where are you getting that from? I can only see the abstract and the first page and I can't see what you're referring to?

Well it's an image so cutting and pasting wasn't an option so...

[blackrose]

Here are a couple more references:

 

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2105295.html

 

http://www.unfpa.org/gender/empowerment.htm (paragraph 3)

 

And a book review:

 

Women's Education, Autonomy and Reproductive Behaviour: Experience from Developing Countries (International Studies in Demography) Shireen J. Jejeebhoy

 

Women's access to education has been recognized as a fundamental right. At the national level, educating women results in improved productivity, income, and economic development, as well as a better quality of life, notably a healthier and better nourished population. It is important for all kinds of demographic behaviour, affecting mortality, health, fertility, and contraception, The personal benefits that women attach to education vary widely according to region, culture, and level of devlopment, but it is clear that educaiton empowers women, providing them with increased autonomy and resulting in almost every context in fewer children. Beyond these few general assertions, however, there is little consensus on such issues as how much education is required before changes in autonomy or reproductive behaviour occur; whether the education-autonomy relationship exists in all cultural contexts, at all times, and at all levels of development; and which aspects of autonomy are important in the relationship between education and fertility. It is in the need to address these fundamental issues that this book took shape. The author reviews the considerable evidence about education and fertility in the developing world that has emerged over the last twenty years, and then passes beyond the limits of previous studies to address three major questions: Does increased education always lead to a decrease in the number of children, or is there a threshold level of education that a woman must achieve before this inverse relationship becomes apparent? What are the critical pathways influencing the relationship of women's education to fertility? Is fertility affected because education leads to changes in the duration of breast-feeding? Because it raises the age at marriage? Because it increases the practice of contraception? Or because education reduces women's preferences for large numbers of children? Do improvements in education empower women in other areas of life, such as their improving exposure to information, decision-making, control of resources, or confidence in dealing with family and the outside world? Supported by full documentation of the available survey data, this study concludes that such contextual factors as the overall level of socio-economic development and the situation of women in traditional kinship structures complicate the general assumptions about the interrelationships between education, fertility, and female autonomy. It lays out the policy implications of these findings and fruitful directions for future research.

 

Clearly this is a complex subject, but in general I think it's accepted by most sociologists and demographers that the education of women generally leads to reduced fertility in developing countries.

 

Well it's an image so cutting and pasting wasn't an option so...

 

I'm having trouble viewing this...

 

It says in some of the poorest countries, modest improvements in education were shown to raise fertility slightly. That's surely a caveat to the general principal that women's education in developing countries reduces fertility in most cases?

 

Anyway, I'm off to bed...

Edited February 24, 2012 by blackrose

[carlt]

Here are a couple more references:

 

http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/2105295.html

Clearly this is a complex subject, but in general I think it's accepted by most sociologists and demographers that education leads to reduced fertility in developing countries.

Really? From your link...

 

....The documentation of empirical patterns for a wide variety of settings inspired increasingly complex views: Demographers no longer regarded the impact of education on fertility as automatic, but as conditioned by the level of development, social organization, gender stratification and cultural milieu of the surrounding society.

 

 

 

 

 

I'm having trouble viewing this...

 

It says in some of the poorest countries, modest

It was lifted from your link so you'll find it there.

Edited February 24, 2012 by carlt

[JDR]

I don't have full internet access at the moment so can't back this up with figures but I would be very surprised if there wasn't a strong link between GDP per capita and fertility rates.The other main link would be child mortality.The link between education/literacy rates among females and reduced fertility rates may be a direct result of the paradox that where either individual females or couples earn more money and are able to theoretically provide for more children the reality is that individuals/couples with higher incomes have less children.

[blackrose]

Really? From your link...

 

As I said, it's a complex subject. The impact of education on fertility may not be automatic and lots of other factors are involved, but most demographers and sociologists wouldn't deny that education is still a major factor.

Edited February 24, 2012 by blackrose

[blackrose]

I don't have full internet access at the moment so can't back this up with figures but I would be very surprised if there wasn't a strong link between GDP per capita and fertility rates.The other main link would be child mortality.The link between education/literacy rates among females and reduced fertility rates may be a direct result of the paradox that where either individual females or couples earn more money and are able to theoretically provide for more children the reality is that individuals/couples with higher incomes have less children.

 

But why does that paradox exist - isn't it to do with women in countries with higher GDP/capita generally having greater reproductive control?

 

Edit: As interesting as it is, I think I'd better opt out of this discussion now - I should be looking for a job!

Edited February 24, 2012 by blackrose

[carlt]

As I said, it's a complex subject. The impact of education on fertility may not be automatic and lots of other factors are involved...

So I guess that, rather than just saying that population control is the solution, you are now a bit closer to...

 

...It is to convince the World's main polluters that it has to end, finance those poorer countries so that they can develop without making the same mistakes that we did, provide them with all the medicine and food that us over producers throw away and convince them that "god" doesn't actually believe they shouldn't wear condoms and it was just the word of a celibate man in a silly hat who protects child abusers.

 

Unfortunately my solution is even less realistic than convincing people that the people who first arrived with medicine, food and "education" were wrong, when they said that their imaginary friend had a no condom rule.

 

Education has to be provided without the mumbo jumbo and aid provided without catches or leaving poor countries in more debt.

 

Sadly as long as capitalism, at this end, and the men with god or guns, at the other, are in charge, filling their Cayman Island bank accounts with poor peoples' money, it will never work.

 

It is probably predictable that this is my opinion but I believe, if the greens are right and we're all doomed, then true international Socialism and a secularist approach is the only solution.

 

Sadly Man's selfishness and tribalism will never let that happen.

Edited February 24, 2012 by carlt

[Lady Muck]

Have to say, this is quite a derail . I' m in awe.

[carlt]

Have to say, this is quite a derail . I' m in awe.

How is a thread about a gathering of greens discussing the environment a derail?

 

Won't they be discussing such matters at this event or will they be too wasted on Skunk and Stella to be bothered?

[smileypete]

Here's a tip, try avoid arguing with carlt, it's like arguing with jelly

 

But I'm sure I'd be happy to buy him a pint if we met in person.

 

cheers,

Pete.

[Chris Pink]

How is a thread about a gathering of greens discussing the environment a derail?

 

Won't they be discussing such matters at this event or will they be too wasted on Skunk and Stella to be bothered?

 

Your blind prejudice does you no credit.