14 day rule with a home mooring

[dmr]

I refer all members to the Fuzzyduck Canalworld Pecking Order

 

As revised for Hippies

 

1. Owners of Shiny new narrowboats. (based in marinas)

2. Owners of Shiny new narrowboats. (moored on linear moorings)

3. Owners of Shiny new narrowboats. (Continuous cruisers)

4. Owners of older narrowboats. (based in marinas)

5. Owners of older narrowboats. (moored on linear moorings)

6. Owners of older narrowboats. (Continuous cruisers)

7. Floating gypsies.

8. Owners of GRP (based in marinas)

9. Owners of GRP (moored on linear moorings)

10. Owners of GRP (Continuous cruisers)

11. Hirers

12. Eugene Baston

13. Owners of Imitation working boats. (based in marinas)

14. Owners of Imitation working boats. (moored on linear moorings)

15. Owners of Imitation working boats. (Continuous cruisers)

16. Ownerships and similar

17. Canaltime

18. Challenger

19. Challenger Stealth Hire

20. Day boats

21. Canoes

22. BW Launches

23. Birmingham Mattresses

24. Blow up dinghy from Argos, during a heatwave in the school holidays.

25. River Lee sofabeds/mattresses etc.......

26. Hippies

 

I would really like to know my social standing on the waterways so may I seek clarification regarding the difference between 6,7 and 26 please?

Also, if we gave Vox a good polish and booked into a marina for a weekend could we be a No1 ?

 

..........dave

[saltysplash]

I would really like to know my social standing on the waterways so may I seek clarification regarding the difference between 6,7 and 26 please?

Also, if we gave Vox a good polish and booked into a marina for a weekend could we be a No1 ?

 

..........dave

 

 

Assuming Vox is not a shiney New narrowboat based in a marina then it would still be placed at No6 inspite of a thorough polish. You could move up to No4 if you move into a marina of course.

 

We will have to wait for Fuzzyduck to give his final interpretations.

 

my understanding of the difference between 6&7 and 26 is that those who fall into those categories will recognise themselves and postion themselves in the correct pecking order position.

[PeterScott]

I have always had a home mooring and still have, but now its on the Middle Level. So am I a CCer when I come onto BW waters?

 

To avoid being constrained by the Continuous Crising rules, you need a mooring where you can legally leave the boat. It doesn't have to be on BW waters, or connected to BW waters. I can't find anything written that requires the boat to return to this mooring.

[sue1]

No it's dead easy. Donb't buy a boat, find someone who already has one, with enough money for you to give up work. Job solved.

 

PS That includwes me.

unfortuntly i dont know anyone rich enough, plus i like to pay my way, but its a good idea though

[mayalld]

I don't understand......!!!

 

surely once a boat is away from its paid for mooring the same rule applies to that boat as to CCers. A CC boat is just a boat with no home mooring.

 

So if a boat with a mooring repeatedly returns to the same spot which is not their mooring, stays there for a week or more and does this regularly for months or years, isn't it breaking the BW rules?

 

When dealing with the rules, "Surely" has vary little place in the discussion!

 

The rules on Moorings are complex, and derive from 2 main places;

 

1) s43(3) Transport Act 1962 (applicable to all boats)

2) s17(3)©(ii) British Waterways Act 1995 (applies only to CCers)

 

The second enactment introduces the terminology such as "boana fide navigation" and "without remaining in one place"

 

The first gives general powers, which BW use to impose mooring time limits. In theory they could use those powers to introduce limits similar to the CCer limits for all boaters, but they haven't done so.

 

So, whilst mooring time limits (made under the 1962 Act) apply to all boaters (including the standard 14 days at any spot), rules about moving to a new "place" stem from the 1995 Act, and don't apply if you have a mooring.

 

That means that if you have a mooring, you can legitimately hop up and down a length of canal, provided you don't overstay at a particular mooring.

[alan_fincher]

Dave,

 

From your interpretation of such things, what do you consider to be the position on legality of and enforceability of what is on the following sign.....

 

1) For those with a declared home mooring ?

2) For those without ?

 

If the sign has validity, what actions do you consider BW has the powers to take in the case of infringement ?

 

Tring summit, (excluding the 1.5 mile navigable part of the Wendover Arm, which is an extension of the same "pound"), is about 3 miles long between the two ends of the summit. This sign appears at the Cow Roast end, and I'm not aware of having seen others on this three mile stretch, although there may be. There are several different marked temporary mooring sites throughout the stretch involved.

 

(And yes, I know it is kind of academic, because BW have currently closed this stretch, but it is the principle I'm referring to, not necessarilyjust this exact sign).

 

Edited January 30, 2012 by alan_fincher

[koukouvagia]

Dave,

 

From your interpretation of such things, what do you consider to be the position on legality of and enforceability of what is on the following sign.....

 

1) For those with a declared home mooring ?

2) For those without ?

 

If the sign has validity, what actions do you consider BW has the powers to take in the case of infringement ?

 

Tring summit, (excluding the 1.5 mile navigable part of the Wendover Arm, which is an extension of the same "pound"), is about 3 miles long between the two ends of the summit. This sign appears at the Cow Roast end, and I'm not aware of having seen others on this three mile stretch, although there may be. There are several different marked temporary mooring sites throughout the stretch involved.

 

(And yes, I know it is kind of academic, because BW have currently closed this stretch, but it is the principle I'm referring to, not necessarilyjust this exact sign).

 

 

Years ago when this, or a similar sign was put up, some of the local boaters asked the then waterways manager if it included those boaters with home moorings at Cowroast. His response was yes, it did, but that BW would turn a blind eye.

 

His view was that BW hadn't thought through whether this restriction was intended to apply to those with a permanent mooring elsewhere and that the notice was a piece ofsloppy drafting.

 

In those days there was a mooring warden at Bulbourne and she simply never made a note of how many weekends local boaters spent at this popular spot.

Edited January 30, 2012 by koukouvagia

[mayalld]

Dave,

 

From your interpretation of such things, what do you consider to be the position on legality of and enforceability of what is on the following sign.....

 

1) For those with a declared home mooring ?

2) For those without ?

 

If the sign has validity, what actions do you consider BW has the powers to take in the case of infringement ?

 

The sign is clearly making use of s43 powers, and consequently is entirely legal, and applicable to all boaters equally.

 

As this is "terms and conditions" under s43, then any enforcement must likewise come from s43. They cannot use s17 powers to enforce it, and a CCer who has two 14 day stays during the year would be in breach only of the s43 terms and conditions, but NOT in breach of his s17 obligations as a CCer.

 

Broadly speaking then, their powers are to "to demand, take and recover [...] such charges [...] as they think fit.", there can be no question of using s17 powers to withdraw the licence.

 

The question then would be "how much can BW charge for overstaying on this mooring, or for staying more than 14 days in a calendar year".

 

Now clearly, it cannot be the intention that the 1962 Act would permit BW to charge a disproportionate amount, or indeed an amount which has the characteristics of a fine, and there is much general legislation later than the 1962 Act which would prevent them from doing so. So, it cannot be that the local Waterway Manager can pull a figure out of the air and simply say "that will be £500 per day". It would be helpful (and would assist BW in collecting easily rather than finding that it is too much trouble to fight it) if they actually stated "Overstaying Charge £25 per day" or as the case may be.

 

So, the only option left to BW is actualy charge for the overstay based on the prevailing charges for mooring.

 

Now, the going rate for a winter mooring in the Tring Area seems to be around £10 per metre per month, so this might be our starting point for letting out unserviced bits of towpath.

 

However, that is a monthly rate for a pre-arranged facility, and it is entirely reasonable that charges for overstaying be made on a basis of;

• Payable at a daily rate only, with the daily rate in the same proportion to the monthly as for daily/monthly licences (20%)
• subject to a surcharge of 50% over that rate as a premium for no prior agreement.

On that basis, I would think that BW could defend a charge for staying more than 14 days in a year of £3.00/metre/day as entirely reasonable.

 

 

 

 

 

[alan_fincher]

The sign is clearly making use of s43 powers, and consequently is entirely legal, and applicable to all boaters equally.

 

As this is "terms and conditions" under s43, then any enforcement must likewise come from s43. They cannot use s17 powers to enforce it, and a CCer who has two 14 day stays during the year would be in breach only of the s43 terms and conditions, but NOT in breach of his s17 obligations as a CCer.

 

Broadly speaking then, their powers are to "to demand, take and recover [...] such charges [...] as they think fit.", there can be no question of using s17 powers to withdraw the licence.

 

The question then would be "how much can BW charge for overstaying on this mooring, or for staying more than 14 days in a calendar year".

 

Now clearly, it cannot be the intention that the 1962 Act would permit BW to charge a disproportionate amount, or indeed an amount which has the characteristics of a fine, and there is much general legislation later than the 1962 Act which would prevent them from doing so. So, it cannot be that the local Waterway Manager can pull a figure out of the air and simply say "that will be £500 per day". It would be helpful (and would assist BW in collecting easily rather than finding that it is too much trouble to fight it) if they actually stated "Overstaying Charge £25 per day" or as the case may be.

 

So, the only option left to BW is actualy charge for the overstay based on the prevailing charges for mooring.

 

Now, the going rate for a winter mooring in the Tring Area seems to be around £10 per metre per month, so this might be our starting point for letting out unserviced bits of towpath.

 

However, that is a monthly rate for a pre-arranged facility, and it is entirely reasonable that charges for overstaying be made on a basis of;

• Payable at a daily rate only, with the daily rate in the same proportion to the monthly as for daily/monthly licences (20%)
• subject to a surcharge of 50% over that rate as a premium for no prior agreement.

On that basis, I would think that BW could defend a charge for staying more than 14 days in a year of £3.00/metre/day as entirely reasonable.

Although with possibly just the one sign on the whole 3 mile summit, and with several locations on the summit marked as temporary moorings, but without a sign like this present, I guess you can always argue firstly that you never saw the sign, or indeed have never travelled afr enough South to be able to!

 

So if you say kept coming back to 14 day moorings at the other end of the summit, whilst staying a couple of miles away from this sign, is it enforcible then ? I would say "how could it reasonably be ?".

 

It would be interesting if they have ever tried to enforce this rule on anybody ever. I rather suspect they never have, but do the locals know differently ? (And if so did they succeed ??).

[TimD]

That means that if you have a mooring, you can legitimately hop up and down a length of canal, provided you don't overstay at a particular mooring.

 

Aha! So boaters in busy spots that bridge hop saying that they can't afford a mooring in that area, could buy a dirt cheap mooring in a totally different part of the country or even on an unconnected stretch. That then allows them to bridge hop in the busy spot. Very odd.

 

A slightly off topic question but related, are you allowed to have a 20ft mooring for a 60ft boat (on the basis that you are never going to moor there)?

[Masquerade]

Well, that about sums it up then.

 

No longer confused of Cheshire.