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HS2 Rail link petition


Emerald
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As pointed out in post #2 this was a done deal from the start. Too much pork for it to be rejected. Sadly with the cost of rail travel so high that travel by car is more affordable and more convenient I can't see it being anything but a white elephant on the scale of the Humber Bridge. What a waste of money, what a waste of talent and effort. Trains are becoming irrelevant to the common person - even the minister responsible for them agrees that they are "a rich man's toy".

 

Is it too expensive?

I went to Shrewsbury today, and the return train fare, was cheaper than my diesel and car parking charges would have been.

I was also on the train with a friend going to Hayes in Kent and his return fare, bought on the train so not in advance, was £66.50 return.

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you are right, re reading the start of this, its actually Costowldman's post n102 which I disagree with.

 

Had the railways been built at a continental gauge, the infrastructure would have too.

But as you said its a bit chicken and egg now.

 

I think its interesting to try and look at the past when it comes to this sort of project. For example what would have happened if the land on which the GCR was built had not been sold to individuals (post beeching axe), it would prove invaluable today

 

Its unlikely that land in England will ever become cheaper, or that the coutry will become less populated, or that the need for people to get around will decrease much.

 

 

Bearing these factors in mind helps, I think, justifying the colossal investment.

Edited by Djuwenda
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<snip>

 

Had the railways been built at a continental gauge, the infrastructure would have too.

 

<snip>

 

They are built to the same track gauge as the continent, but not to the same loading gauge - the space that the rolling stock fits within. Hence the reference earlier to the GCR being constructed to the Berne gauge - a continental standard. The same track gauge as everywhere else allowing rolling stock to move from company to company, but allowing for larger wagons that stayed on the GCR

 

Richard

 

Wasn't there some connection between the GCR engineers and one of the channel tunnel schemes?

Edited by RLWP
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yes the chap whose brainchild it was wanted to connect the midlands to the continent via a tunnel under the channel, hence the continental gauge.

 

Had this brilliant fool succeeded, Braunston would have effectively been ruined :closedeyes:

 

still its hard not to be impressed byt the guy's vision, especially as we now struggle to redo some of the work he set off to do such a long time ago.

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I think Djuwenda was talking about the loading gauge - speaking of which, thank you for the diagrams. They show loading gauges. I knew what those were - but I must admit that I didn't know that the Scots gauge (loading, that is) was slightly more generous than the English ditto.

Was it Sir Edward Watkin? I haven't looked it up, but your GCR/ Chunnel comment brought his name to mind.

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I think Djuwenda was talking about the loading gauge - speaking of which, thank you for the diagrams. They show loading gauges. I knew what those were - but I must admit that I didn't know that the Scots gauge (loading, that is) was slightly more generous than the English ditto.

Was it Sir Edward Watkin? I haven't looked it up, but your GCR/ Chunnel comment brought his name to mind.

 

That's him!

 

Richard

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:smiley_offtopic:

 

 

Our villages 'claim to fame' is that it manufactured steel segments for use in the channel tunnel...

 

Twas impressive seeing the wagons squeezing down the little streets with them loaded.

 

http://www.teescomponents.co.uk/welcome-to-tees-components-p-2.html

 

What I've also discovered tonight is that they make some pretty meaty bow thrusters too (wonder if I'll get a discount for living near 'em)

 

 

http://www.teesgillthrusters.com/

Edited by MJG
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Then you have nothing to fear... :closedeyes:

 

I have nothing to worry about because I am nowhere near the route but my friend, her daughter and grandchildren live in Ruislip. They aint nimbys, they aint rich, but their house, which is their sole asset is unsellable. Compensation might be available if the HS2 goes ahead but in the meantime (which is a considerable time) they are unable to free themselves of worry about a project which will probably not happen. Try and think in terms of families who are cursed by the project without the money to walk away and buy somewhere else. While I'm in full rant how is it that if this is such a good idea we the taxpayers are expected to pay for it? Surely such a wonderful project shoud attract the City boys and even the "fors" on this forum might like to buy some shares. .

  • Greenie 1
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the thing that puzzles me is the "can't sell as house prices affected" so why are these people trying to sell up and move?nothing is going to happpen in the short term so life goes on as normal surely! as and when, even if the project goes ahead then that is the time to do something about it.

 

the local authority own the land adjacent to us and have made plans to redevelop, we don't like what they are planning = we have sold the house and brought another across town the house went for less than we had hoped for but enough to fund our new place and do the work it requires to bring it up to date.

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the thing that puzzles me is the "can't sell as house prices affected" so why are these people trying to sell up and move?nothing is going to happpen in the short term so life goes on as normal surely! as and when, even if the project goes ahead then that is the time to do something about it.

 

the local authority own the land adjacent to us and have made plans to redevelop, we don't like what they are planning = we have sold the house and brought another across town the house went for less than we had hoped for but enough to fund our new place and do the work it requires to bring it up to date.

 

Wrong. It isn't a case of can't sell the house as prices affected-it's a case of can't sell the house. Nobody wants it.You would have to be of a very philosophical nature not to worry about living in such a house for years (and they've already had two years of Concern) until the scheme is implemented and inadequate compensation made or as I believe it dies for want of money or political will. Either way the families concerned are stuffed.

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Wrong. It isn't a case of can't sell the house as prices affected-it's a case of can't sell the house. Nobody wants it.You would have to be of a very philosophical nature not to worry about living in such a house for years (and they've already had two years of Concern) until the scheme is implemented and inadequate compensation made or as I believe it dies for want of money or political will. Either way the families concerned are stuffed.

 

Taking Burton Green as an example, I believe that HS2 have already bought one of the houses when someone wanted to move for the very reasons you describe

 

Richard

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Taking Burton Green as an example, I believe that HS2 have already bought one of the houses when someone wanted to move for the very reasons you describe

 

Richard

 

That's likely. However the case to which I refer is sited 50 feet outside the existing area liable for compensation.(none of which will be paid till the scheme is finalised) Plus they don't really want to move but are understandably concerned that their one asset now provides no security for the future; surely a worthy aspiration for a family on limited income. And there are plenty in the same situation.

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the thing that puzzles me is the "can't sell as house prices affected" so why are these people trying to sell up and move?nothing is going to happpen in the short term so life goes on as normal surely!

But in normal life people sell their houses and move all the time for any number of reasons. Some people may have to move for work for example.

Casp'

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But in normal life people sell their houses and move all the time for any number of reasons. Some people may have to move for work for example.

Casp'

 

Unlike boats, which move only occasionally and very slowly, Casper? B)

 

Richard

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Because it is best to implement the top end of what is proven to work, rather than go for bleeding edge technology that may not actually deliver.

I can imagine what the conversation went like now.

Lets stick to the horse and cart instead of these unproven waterways thingys

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That's likely. However the case to which I refer is sited 50 feet outside the existing area liable for compensation.(none of which will be paid till the scheme is finalised) Plus they don't really want to move but are understandably concerned that their one asset now provides no security for the future; surely a worthy aspiration for a family on limited income. And there are plenty in the same situation.

Looking at the line of the route through Ruislip, it isn't new build, it follows the existing Chiltern Mainline trackbed which has recently been upgraded to 100mph running. I lived alongside the Cologne - Frankfurt high speed line and the ICE3 trains made no more noise than a Chiltern Turbo at full chat. Most the fears around HS2 are imagined. Our family home is going to have a nice viaduct across the fields at the end of the road. We'll get used to it, life will continue, because it always does.

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Alternative means of getting to a banter are available

 

(MJG - never gone to a banter on a boat....)

 

Ahhh, but I don't remember you ever saying that you would. Casper, on the other hand....

 

Richard

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My, there's some bull in this thread.

 

Yes, the trains to Brum used to be a bit quicker. However back in the 1980s there were fewer trains around to get in each others way. There's actually very little slack in the WCML timetable, except for some of the very early and late trains which are heavily 'padded' for engineering diversions. Yes, Virgin use late advertised arrival times as a way of cheating delay compensation thresholds, but that has no bearing on the capacity of the route.

 

The WCML is busy and getting towards full at peak times. However it is NOT at capacity in the peaks as not all trains are fully occupied and not all timetable slots are being occupied by full length trains. Furthermore most passengers consider a train "full" when it's actually about 80% loaded. Some of the Pendos are being lengthened at the moment, but not all. And the Vomet Comets will continue to run as single 5-car units for much of the time as there simply aren't enough of them.

 

Interestingly, the highest loadings are actually in the peak shoulders, because of the weird fares structure created by regulation. It's a very price-sensitive route. Get into the true off peak, and Virgin are carrying around plenty of fresh air, which lengthening the Pendos will worsen unless the fares can be amended (which currently they can't). However the timetable is tight enough that "just" running light engines around and adding extra coaches as and when required, as they used to do in the last century, is no longer an option.

 

Part of the issue is that MOIRA, the rail industry software that calculates revenue allocation, puts an unrealistic premium on fast journey times. When it is announced by government that "the people" want faster journeys, what they're really saying is that the train operators have said this because faster trains earn them more money, because of the software that divvies it all up. In some cases the journey time sensitivity is a true reflection of reality: London - Scotland services compete directly with the airlines, for example - but I'm less convinced when it comes down to shaving odd minutes off the Birmingham or Manchester trains, especially when this is achieved by taking all the intermediate stops out at everybody else's inconvenience. Most people weight up journey times in quarter-hourly chunks, in their own heads, don't they? In terms of how much time they're away from home, or how early they have to get out of bed?

 

It's certainly true that the projected loading figures for 2025 are quite scary. However I think they're distorted by unrealistic projections for economic growth, by unrealistic weightings for faster journey times, and by a crazy fares structure. We're being sold a solution to a problem that's been largely created by the systems shaping the base data.

 

The good news is that MOIRA is due for replacement, which might shift all the goalposts.

 

In the meantime I'll stick to my original viewpoint which is that anyone serious about creating additional capacity on the WCML (not to mention the ECML and MML) will build HS2 for freight trains.

 

That isn't politically sexy, though.

 

Also, watch that HS2 doesn't "accidentally" shaft the traditional route through negligent design in much the same way that HS1 shafted Midland Mainline at St Pancras.

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I used to travel on Midland Mainline frequently and found them quite a good service. In what way were they "shafted"?

One of the major constraints on the present day East Midlands Trains route (ex MML) is the lack of platform capacity at St Pancras. It is ok at the moment but there's no room for future growth, because they weren't given enough room in the redevelopment of the station as all eyes were on the sexy HS1 trains and the champagne bar commercial redevelopment.

 

There are risks that the same could happen to the 'traditional' WCML as a result of HS2.

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Actually the main problem is that trains are shit.

They're ridiculously expensive, uncomfortable and they go from the wrong place to the wrong place so you need another form of transport at each end of the journey. There's a reason that cars and motorbikes are so popular.

  • Greenie 1
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