Foreign built narrowboats reliability, durability, Resale

[Kiwipeter]

 

What I find interesting is while the majority of all shipping construction is concentrated in lower wage economies dooming the industry in the UK. Prestige large cruise ship construction is concentrated in high wage western European countries except the UK. What went wrong?

 

Cheers Don

 

A deadly combination of poor management and thick union leaders.

[Ianey]

I'm currently in the process of having my widebeam being built by Heritage Boats of Evesham and I'm so pleased with the whole process.... From the sales / design process and I'm getting regular pictures of my boat during it's build.

 

I'd definitely recommend them as I've had 8 design drawings along with 28 bespoke changes and Noel has been very, very helpful as well giving supportive advice on improvements to my requests....

 

Hope that helps

 

Ianey

[Dominic M]

A deadly combination of poor management and thick union leaders.

A tale of much of Britain's management skills. Look at Jaguar/Landrover. Taken over by Indian based Tata, and now a huge success. All the workforce skills are there in the UK, piling into Gaydon in South Warks every morning. The UK management skills are not, they wrecked the company, but under Indian ownership, the vision has returned.

[Boat&Bikes]

Is building in Britain the answer? Surely the big earner is design, not manufacture. Take the iPhone: designed in the USA, manufactured in China. For each one sold Apple make around $75 , the Chinese manufacturer $5.

 

One of Britain's current success stories is ARM, who design microprocessors. The company is hugely successful globally. They manufacture nothing. They source out the manufacture to places like China. I saw ARM's CEO interviewed some months ago. He said that he knew nothing about manufacture, the company's expertise was tecnology design. Why would they invest millions in constructing a plant they had no experience of ever operating?

 

The tricky side of this is whilst both ARM and Apple are large employers, their workforce is a highly educated degree standard one. What happens to those who don't gain such qualifications in this country?

 

 

Not everyone can be earning big money in design Dominic can they? I think we should be far more interested in manufacturing.I also wonder what will happen when China or whoever get to busy and we cant source there products...I am already seeing shortages in supply affecting the UK related to my business due to our country not producing certain items which have suddenly become very difficult to purchase from foreign suppliers.

 

 

Ian

[Albion]

A tale of much of Britain's management skills. Look at Jaguar/Landrover. Taken over by Indian based Tata, and now a huge success. All the workforce skills are there in the UK, piling into Gaydon in South Warks every morning. The UK management skills are not, they wrecked the company, but under Indian ownership, the vision has returned.

 

Prior to Tata they were, in fact, owned by Ford Motor Co as part of the Premier Automotive Group (Aston Martin, Volvo, Jags, Land Rover, and Lincoln/Mercury in the early days) so technically they were owned and managed by Americans if you believe that ownership equates to management. All except the very top echelon of directors are probably still there under Tata to be honest. Certainly, under the Ford ownership mistakes were made in Jaguar, entering the bottom end of the market with the X Type was one, for example, and not realising the size of the developing Asian market being another with 60% of their sales concentrated in the American market.

Gaydon is one of the two development sites, the other is Whitley at Coventry. Jaguar/Land Rover development is split over the two sites with engineers working on both marques at both places.

Roger

ex Rover Cars (Gaydon) and Jaguar Land Rover (Whitley) development engineer

[Dominic M]

Not everyone can be earning big money in design Dominic can they? I think we should be far more interested in manufacturing.I also wonder what will happen when China or whoever get to busy and we cant source there products...I am already seeing shortages in supply affecting the UK related to my business due to our country not producing certain items which have suddenly become very difficult to purchase from foreign suppliers.

 

 

Ian

Maybe not. Why don't you set up a manufacturing plant to meet your supply requirements then?

 

Prior to Tata they were, in fact, owned by Ford Motor Co as part of the Premier Automotive Group (Aston Martin, Volvo, Jags, Land Rover, and Lincoln/Mercury in the early days) so technically they were owned and managed by Americans if you believe that ownership equates to management. All except the very top echelon of directors are probably still there under Tata to be honest. Certainly, under the Ford ownership mistakes were made in Jaguar, entering the bottom end of the market with the X Type was one, for example, and not realising the size of the developing Asian market being another with 60% of their sales concentrated in the American market.

Gaydon is one of the two development sites, the other is Whitley at Coventry. Jaguar/Land Rover development is split over the two sites with engineers working on both marques at both places.

Roger

ex Rover Cars (Gaydon) and Jaguar Land Rover (Whitley) development engineer

Our management skills in Britain are appalling. We invent the silicon chip; a total failure of investment and managerial skills mean it is the basis of a huge USA industry. We invent the LED; ditto: We invent nuclear power; ditto . The jet engine; ditto. And so on.

[Boat&Bikes]

Maybe not. Why don't you set up a manufacturing plant to meet your supply requirements then?

 

 

Our management skills in Britain are appalling. We invent the silicon chip; a total failure of investment and managerial skills mean it is the basis of a huge USA industry. We invent the LED; ditto: We invent nuclear power; ditto . The jet engine; ditto. And so on.

 

 

I have,but only small scale to ensure i can continue in business.

 

Ian

[Dominic M]

I have,but only small scale to ensure i can continue in business.

 

Ian

That's good. But if the demand is there, why only on a small scale?

 

Prior to Tata they were, in fact, owned by Ford Motor Co as part of the Premier Automotive Group (Aston Martin, Volvo, Jags, Land Rover, and Lincoln/Mercury in the early days) so technically they were owned and managed by Americans if you believe that ownership equates to management. All except the very top echelon of directors are probably still there under Tata to be honest. Certainly, under the Ford ownership mistakes were made in Jaguar, entering the bottom end of the market with the X Type was one, for example, and not realising the size of the developing Asian market being another with 60% of their sales concentrated in the American market.

Gaydon is one of the two development sites, the other is Whitley at Coventry. Jaguar/Land Rover development is split over the two sites with engineers working on both marques at both places.

Roger

ex Rover Cars (Gaydon) and Jaguar Land Rover (Whitley) development engineer

What I should have added is that where an Indian company like Tata saw opportunity, no British management or investor did. Why not?

Edited November 21, 2011 by Dominic M

[Boat&Bikes]

That's good. But if the demand is there, why only on a small scale?

 

 

What I should have added is that where an Indian company like Tata saw opportunity, no British management or investor did. Why not?

 

 

I produce what i require to allow my core business to continue,i am also at a point in life where i do not wish to work more hours.

[Dominic M]

I produce what i require to allow my core business to continue,i am also at a point in life where i do not wish to work more hours.

Why not outsource then? To China or wherever? Surely cheaper than setting up small scale manufacturing to satisfy just your needs? Economies of scale etc.

[Boat&Bikes]

Why not outsource then? To China or wherever? Surely cheaper than setting up small scale manufacturing to satisfy just your needs? Economies of scale etc.

 

 

Think this is where we started? I dont want to source from China,plus many of my competitors that do are now finding supplies from there both increasing in price and unreliable as far as delivery dates,and i wont comment on quality.

 

Ian

[Albion]

What I should have added is that where an Indian company like Tata saw opportunity, no British management or investor did. Why not?

 

Possibly because no Brit company or investor had the required money or the skills in the automotive field to take on the company. It is a highly specialised field and requires huge money, knowledge and self-confidence to do it. We have no independent motor industry left in the UK now (small specialist producers excepted) so there is no base from which anyone would have the knowledge, skills and confidence to adopt a company with a poor profit record in recent years.

Roger

[Doorman]

My link

 

Plan is next year 2012, to cruise for a week in Ireland out of Carrick on Shannon. Any ideas of places etc welcomed.

 

Cheers Don

 

Hi Don,

 

If you click on the link, you'll see a web site for a small company run by a really great guy called Giles. Both him and his partner used to cruise the English waterways plying their trade.

 

A couple of years ago, they ventured across the Irish Sea to enjoy the warmth and wit of the local characters on the Shannon and elsewhere. If you contact Giles by email, I'm sure he will be happy to give you advice about your Irish adventure.

 

Mike

Edited November 22, 2011 by Doorman

[sebrof]

A tale of much of Britain's management skills. Look at Jaguar/Landrover. Taken over by Indian based Tata, and now a huge success. All the workforce skills are there in the UK, piling into Gaydon in South Warks every morning. The UK management skills are not, they wrecked the company, but under Indian ownership, the vision has returned.

 

To be fair, while Michael Edwardes was MD, he had no time to manage the company. He spent every waking hour trying to deal with Red Robbo.

 

Yes, we had plenty of bad management, but militant unionism was also a huge factor.

 

And whatever one may think of Thatcher, she did sort out the unions, for which we all owe her an enormous debt. Shame she made a hash of so much else.

[Doorman]

To be fair, while Michael Edwardes was MD, he had no time to manage the company. He spent every waking hour trying to deal with Red Robbo.

 

Yes, we had plenty of bad management, but militant unionism was also a huge factor.

 

And whatever one may think of Thatcher, she did sort out the unions, for which we all owe her an enormous debt. Shame she made a hash of so much else.

 

I agree in part with your statement about militant unionism, having once been elected as a shop steward in the Motor Industry, I witnessed some pretty distasteful events.

 

For that very short period (6 months), I learned that there was corruption amongst some of the hierarchy within the union, but, not anywhere as much as that amongst the management. If you think that our honourable MP's are a self serving bunch of so and so's, then you've seen nothing yet.

 

The union leaders in question, were riding on a wave of power rush, fuelled by the power elected upon them to counter the arrogance of management style. One extreme, I believe, promotes the other.

 

As you will probably see in this present term of Conservatism, management styles will evoke resentment amongst the working classes (if there are any left by then) of this country. A typical example of this is currently fueling revolt amongst the lower paid workforce, Benchmarking. This 'self regulation' of company directors pay is a typical establishment ploy to ensure that the rich get richer, regardless of the economy's status. Meanwhile, the lower paid population are repeatedly told to tow the line and accept derisory pay awards.

 

It is such economic injustice that creates militant unions.

Edited November 22, 2011 by Doorman

[WotEver]

It is such economic injustice that creates militant unions.

If you ever get the opportunity to read "The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists" by Robert Tressell (real name Robert Noonan) it makes interesting (if biased) reading. It's not particularly well written and in its full form is somewhat chronologically jumbled, but it clearly demonstrates the need for trades unions and why they came into being.

 

I don't mean to get political here, but as a description of working conditions just after the turn of the last century I found it a fascinating read.

 

Tony

[sebrof]

As you will probably see in this present term of Conservatism, management styles will evoke resentment amongst the working classes (if there are any left by then) of this country. A typical example of this is currently fueling revolt amongst the lower paid workforce, Benchmarking. This 'self regulation' of company directors pay is a typical establishment ploy to ensure that the rich get richer, regardless of the economy's status. Meanwhile, the lower paid population are repeatedly told to tow the line and accept derisory pay awards.

 

It is such economic injustice that creates militant unions.

 

I'm not sure this sort of thing can be blamed on the Tories alone. The rich-poor gap widened considerably under Labour.

 

When I used to be sent on management courses (of which the best by far was the Leadership Trust at Hay-on-Wye) I was often told that most people were not motivated solely (or even largely, in many cases) by money. And yet we keep being told that if we don't pay top people loads of wonga, we won't get the best.

 

Frankly, if the likes of Fred the Shred and Andy Hornsby are the "best", I'd rather live a less interesting life with companies run by second best people whose motivations might be more closely aligned with the interests of shareholders, employees, and society generally.

 

The trouble is that performance-related pay is usually based on very short-term measures which do not correlate with the best long-term interests of the organisation.

 

It would be nice if we could provide incentives for companies to convert themselves, over time, into John Lewis type operations.

Edited November 22, 2011 by sebrof

[Doorman]

If you ever get the opportunity to read "The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists" by Robert Tressell (real name Robert Noonan) it makes interesting (if biased) reading.

 

Tony

 

Cheers, I'll look out for that one.

 

I'm currently reading a book entitled 'Affluenza' by Oliver James. His insight into our modern and materialistically driven life style is quite fascinating. Having experienced the same virus some 20 years ago, I can relate to his findings quite well. Sadly, it took the premature deaths of my brother and brother-in-law, to help me see where I was going wrong.

 

We quite often see a boat pass by with the phrase; 'There's More To Life' lettered on the cabin side. How absolutely true that is!

 

Mike

Edited November 22, 2011 by Doorman

[starman]

 

What I should have added is that where an Indian company like Tata saw opportunity, no British management or investor did. Why not?

 

Ford was forced to sell Jaguar/Land Rover because it was up to its eyebrows in debt caused by making wholesale cock-ups in the USA (as did the other US manufacturers). They were all caught with their pants down by the explosion of sales of Japanese & Korean models as fuel prices went up. With some exceptions Jag & Land Rover were comprehensively sorted out and much improved under Ford when most of the current models were developed and Tata is reaping the benefit.

There's been way too much capacity in the world car industry for years, only kept that way by various nationalistic pressures I'm afraid. Globally expanding companies from emerging countries - like Tata - are the only ones with the money to snap up firms like Jaguar.

The roots of why we have no 'national' car industry go way, way back and are, as we all agree, a combination of cr*p management and bolshie unions. Personally I'd say one of the most important factors was the low regard in which British management have always held engineers.

[sebrof]

The roots of why we have no 'national' car industry go way, way back and are, as we all agree, a combination of cr*p management and bolshie unions. Personally I'd say one of the most important factors was the low regard in which British management have always held engineers.

 

Not always, but through most of the 20th Century certainly. The great Georgian and Victorian engineers were heroes then and now. Watt, Brunel, Bazalgete, and many more.

[WotEver]

... Bazalgete...

I always think his name looks misspelled...

 

Tony

[alan_fincher]

Not always, but through most of the 20th Century certainly. The great Georgian and Victorian engineers were heroes then and now. Watt, Brunel, Bazalgete, and many more.

 

I always think his name looks misspelled...

 

If that is how you are spelling it, then it looks misspelled because it is!

 

The correct spelling has a double 't', not a single one, I believe!

 

EDITED: Because I have misspelled "misspelled"!

Edited November 23, 2011 by alan_fincher

[WotEver]

If that is how you are spelling it, then it looks mispelled because it is!

 

The correct spelling has a double 't', not a single one, I believe!

Give the man a star

[Dominic M]

Ford was forced to sell Jaguar/Land Rover because it was up to its eyebrows in debt caused by making wholesale cock-ups in the USA (as did the other US manufacturers). They were all caught with their pants down by the explosion of sales of Japanese & Korean models as fuel prices went up. With some exceptions Jag & Land Rover were comprehensively sorted out and much improved under Ford when most of the current models were developed and Tata is reaping the benefit.

 

I think that is part of the truth but a little simplistic. Tata are using the same workforce, and posted a profit for the Jaguar Land Rover division of £1 billion earlier this year. The money is available for the kind of investment Tata made - money is global. Look at people like Guy Hands, although I think his modus operandi is questionable, but people like that can find huge sums when they want to.

 

Personally I'd say one of the most important factors was the low regard in which British management have always held engineers.

I wouldn't argue with that at all. We call the bloke who comes round to fix a washing machine an "engineer" in this country! Says it all really.

[cotswoldsman]

To be fair, while Michael Edwardes was MD, he had no time to manage the company.

 

Well he was South African

 

If you ever get the opportunity to read "The Ragged Trousered Philanthropists" by Robert Tressell (real name Robert Noonan) it makes interesting (if biased) reading. It's not particularly well written and in its full form is somewhat chronologically jumbled, but it clearly demonstrates the need for trades unions and why they came into being.

 

I don't mean to get political here, but as a description of working conditions just after the turn of the last century I found it a fascinating read.

 

Tony

 

One of the great books