6kg Powder Fire Extinguisher

[OldGoldy]

Just for information, from next Thursday 3rd November at Lidl. Usual riders, selected stores, while stocks last etc.

 

Maybe a bit on the big size for some. Seems a good price, but have not bought one recently, so not sure

 

[Nickhlx]

Just for information, from next Thursday 3rd November at Lidl. Usual riders, selected stores, while stocks last etc.

 

Maybe a bit on the big size for some. Seems a good price, but have not bought one recently, so not sure

 

 

 

 

 

When the chips are down ( alight ?) is it possible to have too big an extinguisher ? ?

 

Nick

[Bob18]

Yes, but only if you can't pick the big one up and use it where/when needed.

[Barry]

I agree with Bob

 

In the case of fire extinguishers it is better to have too much than too little

 

But only if you can physically handle the extinguisher effectively

[Nickhlx]

I agree with Bob

 

In the case of fire extinguishers it is better to have too much than too little

 

But only if you can physically handle the extinguisher effectively

 

I would think most people could manage 6 Kgs odd - it's barely more than a 5 litre can of fuel.... and moving a boat around requires a bit of ability

 

Nick

[Bob18]

And at twenty quid its well worth a trip...

[ChrisPy]

does it have BSS compliant certification?

[WotEver]

does it have BSS compliant certification?

You'd need to check that it has one of the markings as noted in 6.1.2 here.

 

Tony

[jim and pat dalton]

Frankly wouldn't use powder anywhere near a metal boat full of wires and appliances, very corrosive; you stop the fire and ruin the boat.

 

ammonium phosphate.....Hydroscopic and not nice

 

 

Jim

Edited October 28, 2011 by jim and pat dalton

[bottle]

Jim

 

What would you use and still comply with the BSS (Boat Safety Scheme)?

[jim and pat dalton]

Jim

 

What would you use and still comply with the BSS (Boat Safety Scheme)?

 

Does the BSS scheme say you have to use it? or just have it on board?

 

at the end of the day, if your well alight and its going to be a catostrophic disaster who cares what it is if it saves life. but I would rather not create more damage with powder when a blanket or CO2 could be used

 

always a worryer I just though I had better check the practicality of the suitability of dry powder (outside of regulations)

 

Safety-marine.co.uk. says this

 

When NOT to Use a Dry Powder Fire Extinguisher!

 

The most common type of fire extinguisher found on a boat is the dry powder model. This is a useful 'all-round' fire extinguisher suitable for the situations identified by fire classifications A, B and C. (For an explanation of these classifications, see Fire Classifications & Fire Extinguishers.)

 

However, when you discharge a dry powder extinguisher it leaves a fine layer of powder, - much of which can turn into a sticky mess when it touches flames or hot metal.

 

The substance found in most dry powder fire extinguishers usually consists of either ammonium phosphate, potassium bicarbonate or sodium bicarbonate (otherwise known as bicarbonate of soda or baking powder!)

 

Unfortunately, ammonium phosphate can react with any moisture present to form phosphoric acid, which is highly corrosive and can easily seep into the smallest cracks in equipment, as well as remove paint. Left in place, the powder will draw moisture from the air and a common example of this acid corrosion will be chrome being replaced with rust.

 

More seriously, should the powder get taken into the air intakes, it could quite easily ruin the engine.

 

So even though you managed to tackle an engine fire quickly by discharging an extinguisher through the little hole in your engine bay cover, you may have caused more damage to your engine than the fire itself, simply because of your choice of fire extinguisher.

 

Fire industry professionals will always advise you to avoid using a dry powder fire extinguisher in an engine space - but if you have no choice, then it is critical that you shut the engines down first.

 

A Worrying Situation!

 

This is a worrying situation because there are literally thousands of boats on the water with nothing more than dry powder fire extinguishers on board.

 

And even more concerning, is that there are hundreds of boats out there whose owners have installed small automatic engine fire extinguishers, bought from their local chandlery, that contain normal ABC dry powder - under the impression that this will reduce the risk of serious damage should an engine fire occur.

 

Unfortunately, leisure boat owners are rarely aware of this issue, and the staff in many general chandlers may not have the specialist technical knowledge to advise boat owners appropriately.

 

With your engine bay blackened with smoke and your 'Yanmar' or 'Volvo' refusing to start, imagine your horror when your insurer informs you that by using a dry powder fire extinguisher you failed to ensure that your fire fighting equipment was 'suitable for its intended use' and was not 'used in an appropriate manner'?

 

Does this sound like a tall tale from the yacht club bar?

 

Well it has already happened. And with clean, non-hazardous and cost-effective alternatives readily available - there is no reason to expect that insurers will continue to pay out for expensive engine fire claims, when for few hundred pounds an owner could have easily installed a fully approved, totally clean and incredibly effective alternative to dry powder.

 

What to Remember:

•Boat owners should be aware of the suitability of different types of fire extinguisher for different fire situations

•Dry powder fire extinguishers should NEVER be discharged into an engine bay unless the engine is switched off

•Boat owners should consider installing a correctly-sized automatic engine fire extinguisher that either contains FM200 an alternative Halon replacement.

 

With fire being the single greatest cause of vessels being lost or seriously damaged, all boat owners should be aware of their responsibilities for ensuring that suitable fire fighting equipment is provided on the vessel. Even if that requirement is simply to fulfil the terms of an insurance policy.

 

For the same reasons, I would add, I wouldn't use it where the TV is or kitchen equipment or laptop, etc etc

 

I think they are also referring to FE36 as an alternative (haven't a clue what that is frankly)

Edited October 28, 2011 by jim and pat dalton

[OldGoldy]

You'd need to check that it has one of the markings as noted in 6.1.2 here.

 

 

Cannot see from my scan or the original leaflet, but on a quick search, a recent German eBay seller has these listed as DIN EN 3 certificated. I guess anyone interested would have to check closely before purchase.

Edited October 28, 2011 by dave69700

[ChrisPy]

Does the BSS scheme say you have to use it? or just have it on board?

 

at the end of the day, if your well alight and its going to be a catostrophic disaster who cares what it is if it saves life. but I would rather not create more damage with powder when a blanket or CO2 could be used

 

 

CO2 is hardly a safe option except in non-occupied spaces, e.g. under the aft deck.

[bottle]

Jim

 

Thank you.

[jim and pat dalton]

CO2 is hardly a safe option except in non-occupied spaces, e.g. under the aft deck.

 

 

So would dry powder (which btw releases Co2 to kill the fire) then be a safe option in boat or indeed any other gas type extinguisher?

 

the 2nd para of this site says not suitable for enclosed spaces: http://www.fireextinguisherguide.co.uk/types-of-fire-extinguishers/dry-powder-extinguishers/

 

I wonder if the truth is that there is no extiguishersystem perfect for boats so dry powder was chosen by a comittee, who saw no further than putting out a fire (why not)

 

But at least with CO2 you can get rid of a fire surely and get out or open something or is the drill just to sit there and die? your not going to suffocate for the moments it takes. As a young man working nights in a small office we woke up many a dozing worker by goosing him with a blast from a Co2 extinguisher!!

 

So sorry, I'm really not trying to poke a stick in the wheel or sound like an expert, but it seems to me that just because its red and goes whoosh and has a certificate, doesn't mean your saved or your boat is, does it?

 

When we get our boat, we will of course comply with rules and regs, but I will not let off dry powder unless I have to, Ive seen the reality of it wrecking your pride and joy in motor racing and especially aviation and there is no return from corrosion once you've done the deed.

 

Oddly been doing a lot of fire stuff today as in my present job I have 7 water extinguishers on site one in each container by regulation (passed my inspection this morning) As I said to the inspector, If theres a fire, the best drill for safety is to get out of here!! and not let the fire brigade in. He agreed

Edited October 28, 2011 by jim and pat dalton

[Bob18]

There are MANY reasons why powder extinguishers are favoured on boats by the majority of those making the rules, and the use of CO2 is less popular.

 

CO2 is a pretty poor extinguisher when you have the combination of hot oil and hot metal. It does NOT prevent reignition because it does not have persistence, while it knocks down flames fairly quickly it disperses all too readily (as do all gaseous extinguishents). Persistent extinguishents not only knock down the flame rapidly they prevent reignition by coating the hot surface with a non-flammable coating. Both powder and foam extinguishers work well in this manner.

 

CO2 will barely buy you any escape time if you have a fuel fire, indeed, it can make life far worse by causing the burning oil to be thrown around. (There have been several demonstrations of how to propel an office chair using CO2 extinguishers - its a bit of an engineering student party trick, and is a good demonstration of the force from a CO2 extinguisher.

 

Water works by cooling the surface, again something gaseous systems cannot do unless you use massive quantities accurately delivered at very high rates.

 

The ONLY good thing about CO2 is that is doesn't make a mess, but it you pride and joy has been burnt to the waterline, how does that compare with cleaning down after using a proper extinguisher?

[ditchcrawler]

CO2 is hardly a safe option except in non-occupied spaces, e.g. under the aft deck.

Bring back BCF

 

does it have BSS compliant certification?

Surly if you have the BSC requirment in extinguishers on-board what you have in addition to that is up to you

[Bob18]

On the face of it the Lidl extinguisher complies with the correct standard, albeit the German version.

Its "capacity" rating is just about readable in the advert as 27A, 183BC - which on its own satisfies capacity requirements for most narrowboat, but you'd need to confirm the number of units required for a particular boat as that is based on its length.

 

DIN EN 3 is a multi part standard, complete standard number should be on the extinguisher if not visible on the advert, along with the capacity rating (which is given in the advert).

[ChrisPy]

On the face of it the Lidl extinguisher complies with the correct standard, albeit the German version.

Its "capacity" rating is just about readable in the advert as 27A, 183BC - which on its own satisfies capacity requirements for most narrowboat, but you'd need to confirm the number of units required for a particular boat as that is based on its length.

 

DIN EN 3 is a multi part standard, complete standard number should be on the extinguisher if not visible on the advert, along with the capacity rating (which is given in the advert).

not the whole answer. please refer to para 6.1.2 of the BSS requirements

[Bob18]

Many thanks for pointing that out.

Interesting to see the BSS only bother to refer to the French compliance markings, when there are quite a number of other countries with marking schemes that comply with the same Euro-Norm (EN 3). Which is why it is important when quoting the number of a standard to give its entire number, and supporting certification.

[jim and pat dalton]

The ONLY good thing about CO2 is that is doesn't make a mess, but it you pride and joy has been burnt to the waterline, how does that compare with cleaning down after using a proper extinguisher?

 

You mad some excellent points in that post, very useful.

 

In a previous post where I quoted from a web site, they were offering alternates to Dry Powder.

 

 

To answer your question about comparing with cleaning down after using a proper extinguisher.

 

If you mean by "proper" the dry powder required in the regs, then have done it twice. Once in 1987 at Donington Park on a windle sidecar outfit where the owner got over ambitious with his fuel mix and once at Sywell aerodrome in 1993 when an operator over primed his aircraft at the start and no-one was around to spot the burning fuel.

 

Both times clearing up really wasn't needed as after a thorough clean both machines suffered corrosion enoungh to render them write offs.

 

And that is my only issue with dry powder really. If CO2 is not useful, (I will accept that of course) then Id rather have a better prstical alternative. But not dry powder, leave that for compliance to regs.

 

 

Jim

[Bob18]

I've seen far too may very expensive bits of equipment destroyed by reignition following the use of gaseous extinguishers being used to EVER trust them on anything other than small electrical fires, or in air tight computer rooms where the air displaced by properly designed bulk discharge systems.

 

I do agree, if you do use a powder extinguisher you MUST clean down very soon after or you are in danger of corrosion.

 

 

 

One interesting alternative to gaseous and powder systems are the pyrotechnic extinguishers which "burn" with a very cold flame (sub-zero I think?), these cool the surface, and leave a non-corrosive deposit etc. They are expensive, but allegedly very effective when correctly installed and triggered. One of the major suppliers is Pyrogen (pretty naff website, but the PDFs do give a UK contact address and phone number in Bolton). Interesting to see that this system is already MCA & RNLI approved, so it might be worth asking them about BSS.

[Barry]

Another problem with both powder and CO2 extinguishers is that, since neither extinguish by cooling and both are useless in open air because they are simply blown away, they are both only effective in enclosed spaces.

 

With CO2 in particular, if the space where the fire was is opened up again quickly after extinguishment, as the gas clears and is replaced by fresh air again, there is a real danger of reignition. Then, of course, you need another extinguisher only you might have just used the only one you had.

 

My choice for an extinguishers on a boat would be a couple of AFFF extinguishers (Aqueous Film Forming Foam). Better than the old fashioned foam extinguishers and, being water based, have a much better cooling effect on hot objects than powder or CO2

 

 

 

 

 

Edited to add - Oh and you can't beat a fire blanket for small fires especially the old cooking fire

Edited October 29, 2011 by Bazza2

[Bob18]

Fire blankets are superb when it comes to small kitchen fires, no chance of spraying the burning fat anywhere. Just make sure you leave the blanket on for a good time after put it on and turning the heat off under the pan (which is a little difficult if you are using a wood burner....)