Certificate in Community Boat Management

[canaldrifter]

Visiting the basin at Melbourne on the Pocklington canal, we met one of the skippers of the 12 seater trip boat, New Horizons, operated by the Pocklington Canal Amenity Society.

 

http://www.pocklingtoncanalsociety.org/

 

In conversation we learned that their voluntary skippers are now trained to Certificate in Community Boat Management standard, and that this is accepted by BW.

 

My friend, Martin Bowers, who was the original skipper of the Surrey and Hampshire trip boat, John Pinkerton, and still skippers Merlin out of Mytchett on the Basingstoke, teaches to Boatmaster standard 12 seater skippers on the river Wey. To his knowledge the CCBM is not accepted by the National Trust.

 

On the Basingstoke, the BCA chose not to implement the MCA boatmaster requirement either, as it would mean training up their rangers who operate dredgers and workboats too.

 

I have tried to find out what BW's official standing is with regard to qualifying workboat and small trip boat, employed or voluntary skippers. There aren't any refs on the BW website, and scant info on waterscape apart from:

 

Boat Skills Training

 

Volunteer groups who run trip boats or community boats want to ensure the best experience for their visitors. One way to do this is train the volunteers who steer the boats. These can be either through a Boat Masters License or through the National Community Boats Associations’ Certificate of Community Boat Management.

 

http://www.waterscape.com/things-to-do/volunteering/volunteer-training

 

Info on the CCBM courses offering training abounds, such as:

 

http://www.national-cba.co.uk/course/course_type.asp?nType=CCBMs

 

Can anyone add any info on BW's official standing?

 

At the moment the system seems to be a bit of a mess, with some waterway authorities wanting MCA Boatmaster qualification for 12 seater boats, others not wanting any, and BW now accepting the CCBM, we are told.

 

Mind you, anything that keeps the MCA off inland waterways has to be good as far as I'm concerned. Their remit should be in tidal waters only. It's in the name: 'Maritime and Coastguard Agency'.

 

I reckon that the CCBM should be extended to include larger inland trip boats, and the MCA Boatmaster licence requirement should be disregarded, as should MCA inspections on the boats.

 

Too draconian, too expensive, and well over-the-top for boats operating in shallow waters. It was bad enough in my day as a trip boat operator. I don't know how operators put up with it now.

 

Tone

Edited May 14, 2011 by canaldrifter

[Dalesman]

Visiting the basin at Melbourne on the Pocklington canal, we met one of the skippers of the 12 seater trip boat, New Horizons, operated by the Pocklington Canal Amenity Society.

 

http://www.pocklingtoncanalsociety.org/

 

In conversation we learned that their voluntary skippers are now trained to Certificate in Community Boat Management standard, and that this is accepted by BW.

 

My friend, Martin Bowers, who was the original skipper of the Surrey and Hampshire trip boat, John Pinkerton, and still skippers Merlin out of Mytchett on the Basingstoke, teaches to Boatmaster standard 12 seater skippers on the river Wey. To his knowledge the CCBM is not accepted by the National Trust.

 

On the Basingstoke, the BCA chose not to implement the MCA boatmaster requirement either, as it would mean training up their rangers who operate dredgers and workboats too.

 

I have tried to find out what BW's official standing is with regard to qualifying workboat and small trip boat, employed or voluntary skippers. There aren't any refs on the BW website, and scant info on waterscape apart from:

 

Boat Skills Training

 

Volunteer groups who run trip boats or community boats want to ensure the best experience for their visitors. One way to do this is train the volunteers who steer the boats. These can be either through a Boat Masters License or through the National Community Boats Associations’ Certificate of Community Boat Management.

 

http://www.waterscape.com/things-to-do/volunteering/volunteer-training

 

Info on the CCBM courses offering training abounds, such as:

 

http://www.national-cba.co.uk/course/course_type.asp?nType=CCBMs

 

Can anyone add any info on BW's official standing?

 

At the moment the system seems to be a bit of a mess, with some waterway authorities wanting MCA Boatmaster qualification for 12 seater boats, others not wanting any, and BW now accepting the CCBM, we are told.

 

Mind you, anything that keeps the MCA off inland waterways has to be good as far as I'm concerned. Their remit should be in tidal waters only. It's in the name: 'Maritime and Coastguard Agency'.

 

I reckon that the CCBM should be extended to include larger inland trip boats, and the MCA Boatmaster licence requirement should be disregarded, as should MCA inspections on the boats.

 

Too draconian, too expensive, and well over-the-top for boats operating in shallow waters. It was bad enough in my day as a trip boat operator. I don't know how operators put up with it now.

 

Tone

While I would agree with you about the MCA and inland waterways you have no chance of them not being interested in tripboats, some years ago the yearly inspections was delegated to certain BSS people, but after many years was taken back in house by the MCA,who by the way are now looking at the hire boats rules too. You can use the RYA helmsman Certificate for 12 seater trip boats on BW waters, though I think all public trip boats should have the same rules applied across the board.

[Tam & Di]

While I would agree with you about the MCA and inland waterways you have no chance of them not being interested in tripboats, some years ago the yearly inspections was delegated to certain BSS people, but after many years was taken back in house by the MCA,who by the way are now looking at the hire boats rules too. You can use the RYA helmsman Certificate for 12 seater trip boats on BW waters, though I think all public trip boats should have the same rules applied across the board.

 

I objected to that in the recent MCA consultation, on the basis that the IWHC as it stands is an "attendance" certificate. Although schools do occasionally fail an attendee there are no published guidelines from the RYA (or MCA) as to how bad a person would have to be to fail. The aims of the IWHC are simply to give (new) boaters a basic grounding in steering a canal boat, and I argued that there should be a higher level certificate which had a specific "pass/fail" level if it were to be used for steering a passenger vessel. My argument was unsuccessful though.

 

 

edited for spilling mostokes

Edited May 14, 2011 by Tam & Di

[Dalesman]

I objected to that in the recent MCA consultation, on the basis that the IWHC as it stands is an "attendance" certificate. Although schools do occasionally fail an attendee there are no published guidelines from the RYA (or MCA) as to how bad a person would have to be to fail. The aims of the IWHC are simply to give (new) boaters a basic grounding in steering a canal boat, and I argued that there should be a higher level certificate which had a specific "pass/fail" level if it were to be used for steering a passenger vessel. My argument was unsuccessful though.

 

 

edited for spilling mostokes

Any 14 year old can get one I believe, unlike the MCA Boatmaster.

[Iain_S]

(snip)............. though I think all public trip boats should have the same rules applied across the board.

 

This would cause a lot of problems for small charity operators and the like, due to the "days experience" requirements for both the grant and maintenance of a Boatmaster Licence, as well as the expense of acquiring one in the first place. I am currently renewing mine, and see from the MCA website that if I need to have qualifications in Fire Safety, Sea survival and First Aid to get a 5 year renewal.Willow Wren at Rugby do a Fire Safety and Survival course for £195, but in my case and that of other Boatmasters up here the non trivial cost of travel and overnight accomodation needs to be added. (Local alternatives are separate courses at £95 for RYA Sea Survival and "Fire Safey Awareness" from the local Fire Brigade)

 

Non commercial operators in my area include the Seagull Trust, who provide free trips to the disabled (12 passenger), and have about 30 regular drivers, Linlithgow Canal Society, who operate a 40 seat tip boat with a dwindling supply of drivers, currently around 20, and the 19-40 Canal Society who operate a 12 seater with six or seven possible drivers. The requirement to have an MCA Boatmaster Licence for 12 passengers woud put both the Seagull Trust and the 19-40 Canal Society out of business.

 

Iain

Edited May 14, 2011 by Iain_S

[Dalesman]

This would cause a lot of problems for small charity operators and the like, due to the "days experience" requirements for both the grant and maintenance of a Boatmaster Licence, as well as the expense of acquiring one in the first place. I am currently renewing mine, and see from the MCA website that if I need to have qualifications in Fire Safety, Sea survival and First Aid to get a 5 year renewal.Willow Wren at Rugby do a Fire Safety and Survival course for £195, but in my case and that of other Boatmasters up here the non trivial cost of travel and overnight accomodation needs to be added. (Local alternatives are separate courses at £95 for RYA Sea Survival and "Fire Safey Awareness" from the local Fire Brigade)

 

Non commercial operators in my area include the Seagull Trust, who provide free trips to the disabled (12 passenger), and have about 30 regular drivers, Linlithgow Canal Society, who operate a 40 seat tip boat with a dwindling supply of drivers, currently around 20, and the 19-40 Canal Society who operate a 12 seater with six or seven possible drivers. The requirement to have an MCA Boatmaster Licence for 12 passengers woud put both the Seagull Trust and the 19-40 Canal Society out of business.

 

Iain

 

Sorry Iain but you do not need a sea survival course for Tier 2 Boatmaster on cat A & B canals but a water safety and and fire fighting, and only when you apply for a new licence, not every 5 years. You can take a one day first aid course with your local Red Cross,and by the way I hate trip boat skippers being called drivers. I still say that ALL boatmasters should hold the same licence,whether on a 12 or 20 seater vessel.

Edited May 14, 2011 by Dalesman

[howardang]

Hi Tony,

 

as you know, New Horizons operates under the Inland Waters Small Passenger Code and in he case of the Pocklington Canal which is a Category A Waterway and the requirements for qualifications follow the and comply with BW's requirements. For those who are not familiar with them the qualifications approved under the code are as follows:-

 

6.2.3

 

• The following certificates or courses are recommended:

 

• MCA Boatmasters Licence for a local passenger vessel (BML) grade 3 or 2 for the appropriate area;

• British Waterways Boatmanship Licence;

• National Community Boats Association Certificate in Community Boat Management;

• Waterman’s Licence issued by a competent authority for the appropriate area, where available;

• Royal Yachting Association (RYA) Power Boat Level 2) with 12 months relevant experience;

• RYA Inland Helmsman’s Certificate with 12 months relevant experience.

 

The full code can be found here;

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/final_brochure-2.pdf

 

The crews are trained to CCC and then CCBM through courses run at the NBA and in addition the Society organises induction and familiarisation training for all new crew members. For less than 12 passenger vessels in sheltered water this level of training is more than adequate to give a level of safety and experience necessary and any requirement to have a highter certificate would be prohibitive and unnecessary.

 

Cheers

 

Howard

[Tim]

John Pinkerton 'skippers' are MCA licensed, I know this because I'm about to go through the process.

 

Three one day courses in water safety, first aid and fire safety.

 

A medical and a check with an MCA Captain on the vessel in question.

[howardang]

Sorry Iain but you do not need a sea survival course for Tier 2 Boatmaster on cat A & B canals but a water safety and and fire fighting, and only when you apply for a new licence, not every 5 years. You can take a one day first aid course with your local Red Cross,and by the way I hate trip boat skippers being called drivers. I still say that ALL boatmasters should hold the same licence,whether on a 12 or 20 seater vessel.

 

I would be inerested to know why you think all trip boat skippers ( I won't offend you by caling them drivers ) should be qualified to the same level. Operational areas differ and local conditions cab be vastly different. As Ian has pointed out it would be prohibitive to expect small societies o train their crew to a higher level than is necessary and would lead to the possible shut down of some of the smaller ones.

 

Cheers

 

Howard

[Dalesman]

I would be inerested to know why you think all trip boat skippers ( I won't offend you by caling them drivers ) should be qualified to the same level. Operational areas differ and local conditions cab be vastly different. As Ian has pointed out it would be prohibitive to expect small societies o train their crew to a higher level than is necessary and would lead to the possible shut down of some of the smaller ones.

 

Cheers

 

Howard

There is no difference on on cat A canals which most of these vessels operate so why should a skipper on a 20 seat boat have a MCA boatmaster certificate and the guy on a 12 seater just need the RYA one..? Plus the MCA class boats need loads of paper work and inspections while the 12 seater can get away with almost none, BW do not police the MCA small passenger boat code neither do the MCA police it, strange when they set it out in the first place.ALL boats that carry passengers should work to the same rules.

[Tam & Di]

For those who are not familiar with them the qualifications approved under the code are as follows:-

 

6.2.3

 

• The following certificates or courses are recommended:

 

• MCA Boatmasters Licence for a local passenger vessel (BML) grade 3 or 2 for the appropriate area;

• British Waterways Boatmanship Licence;

• National Community Boats Association Certificate in Community Boat Management;

• Waterman’s Licence issued by a competent authority for the appropriate area, where available;

• Royal Yachting Association (RYA) Power Boat Level 2) with 12 months relevant experience;

• RYA Inland Helmsman’s Certificate with 12 months relevant experience.

 

 

Perhaps my arguments during the consultation stage did bear some fruit then. I certain don't recall any mention of "relevant experience" in the original version. How though is "12 months relevant experience" gained? To get a passenger boat skippers ticket in France a trainee has to serve as deck crew for a minimum of 28 days for each of four years on a relevant craft. I realise the skills are rather different, but the question I am asking is how is 12 months experience defined? Is it one day in a 12 month period? One week? One month? What does a trainee actually do for the experience? Lock-wheel? Steer the boat under the watchful eye of a certificated person (the two of them on the counter together!)?

 

I couldn't find the answer on the MCA site.

[Dalesman]

Before you can take your MCA Boatmasters you must have your Task Record Book filled in and signed and have done at 3 (?) months service on a passenger vessel.

[howardang]

Perhaps my arguments during the consultation stage did bear some fruit then. I certain don't recall any mention of "relevant experience" in the original version. How though is "12 months relevant experience" gained? To get a passenger boat skippers ticket in France a trainee has to serve as deck crew for a minimum of 28 days for each of four years on a relevant craft. I realise the skills are rather different, but the question I am asking is how is 12 months experience defined? Is it one day in a 12 month period? One week? One month? What does a trainee actually do for the experience? Lock-wheel? Steer the boat under the watchful eye of a certificated person (the two of them on the counter together!)?

 

I couldn't find the answer on the MCA site.

I agree - I have never been able to discover what this actually means. Similarly, what constitutes 3 months time for a boatmasters - 1 day per month for 3 months or 90 days at 8 hours per day?

 

Howard

 

edited because I couldn't find the tongue-in-cheek smiley

Edited May 14, 2011 by howardang

[Allan(nb Albert)]

I have held a National Community Boats Association Certificate in Community Boat Management (NCBA CCBM if you like) for seven years. I would recommend it to any organisation rather than a Boatmaster or RHA qualification.

 

The problem, as Tony pointed out in his original post, is that a CCBM qualification only qualifies you to helm a boat with up to 12 passengers. I think, but don't know, that the training needed to helm for a twelve berth residential boat is probably more than needed for a twenty passenger day boat.

 

The CCBM course book states 'IT IS UNLIKELY THAT ABSOLUTE BEGINNERS WILL PASS ALL MODULES AT THE FIRST ATTEMPT'. I wonder if the same can be said about RYA?

 

Whilst I can't speak for CCBM generally, my little corner of it finds that many volunteer helmsman, whilst not being absolute beginners, still fail at the first qualification attempt but pass after gaining experience accompanying qualified helmsmen.

Edited May 14, 2011 by Allan(nb Albert)

[Iain_S]

Sorry Iain but you do not need a sea survival course for Tier 2 Boatmaster on cat A & B canals but a water safety and and fire fighting, and only when you apply for a new licence, not every 5 years. You can take a one day first aid course with your local Red Cross,and by the way I hate trip boat skippers being called drivers. I still say that ALL boatmasters should hold the same licence,whether on a 12 or 20 seater vessel.

According to the MCA website

6. How do I apply for a BML? (Qualification Requirements)

 

 

To qualify for a BML you will need to submit the following documents to your local Marine Office:

 

 

•an application form MSF 4364

•evidence of completing the three basic safety courses – personal survival, first aid and fire safety MCA approved BML Short Courses

•a medical certificate Seafarer Information (see section 10 for further information)

•a Task Record Book MSF 4367

•work record or other evidence of time served – Tier 1 applicants only MSF 4366

•meet minimum age requirements*

•any Pilotage Exemption Certificates (PEC) (if held)

* Please refer to section 9 for service time and age requirements

 

Sorry about the "drivers" Bad habit picked up from one of our local operators!

 

I had assumed Sea Survival and Fire Safety were once only. I only need them because my current licence is "old style" Grade 3.

 

I think we'll have to agree to differ re (up to)12 passenger boats. Even the recent proposed amendment to medical requirements for thesewould have caused serious financial problems for the Seagull Trust, whose only income is from donations.

 

Iain

[furnessvale]

 

On the Basingstoke, the BCA chose not to implement the MCA boatmaster requirement either, as it would mean training up their rangers who operate dredgers and workboats too.

 

Tone

 

I hold a boatmaster for passenger, cargo and tug and pusher work and I never knew that it was in the gift of the navigation authority whether to apply MCA regs ot not! I thought it was all a legal requirement following Marchioness.

 

You live and learn.

 

George ex nb ALTON retired

[Stephen Sugg]

I have held a National Community Boats Association Certificate in Community Boat Management (NCBA CCBM if you like) for seven years. I would recommend it to any organisation rather than a Boatmaster or RHA qualification.

 

The problem, as Tony pointed out in his original post, is that a CCBM qualification only qualifies you to helm a boat with up to 12 passengers. I think, but don't know, that the training needed to helm for a twelve berth residential boat is probably more than needed for a twenty passenger day boat.

 

The CCBM course book states 'IT IS UNLIKELY THAT ABSOLUTE BEGINNERS WILL PASS ALL MODULES AT THE FIRST ATTEMPT'. I wonder if the same can be said about RYA?

 

Whilst I can't speak for CCBM generally, my little corner of it finds that many volunteer helmsman, whilst not being absolute beginners, still fail at the first qualification attempt but pass after gaining experience accompanying qualified helmsmen.

I've got one, had it about the same length of time, I passed first time, as did most of the people on the course. None were that experienced (including me). Bit sad but I've only actually made use of it twice since.

[canaldrifter]

Hi Tony,

 

as you know, New Horizons operates under the Inland Waters Small Passenger Code and in he case of the Pocklington Canal which is a Category A Waterway and the requirements for qualifications follow the and comply with BW's requirements. For those who are not familiar with them the qualifications approved under the code are as follows:-

 

6.2.3

 

• The following certificates or courses are recommended:

 

• MCA Boatmasters Licence for a local passenger vessel (BML) grade 3 or 2 for the appropriate area;

• British Waterways Boatmanship Licence;

• National Community Boats Association Certificate in Community Boat Management;

• Waterman’s Licence issued by a competent authority for the appropriate area, where available;

• Royal Yachting Association (RYA) Power Boat Level 2) with 12 months relevant experience;

• RYA Inland Helmsman’s Certificate with 12 months relevant experience.

 

The full code can be found here;

http://www.dft.gov.uk/mca/final_brochure-2.pdf

 

The crews are trained to CCC and then CCBM through courses run at the NBA and in addition the Society organises induction and familiarisation training for all new crew members. For less than 12 passenger vessels in sheltered water this level of training is more than adequate to give a level of safety and experience necessary and any requirement to have a highter certificate would be prohibitive and unnecessary.

 

Cheers

 

Howard

 

Thanks' for the clarification, Howard.

 

Tone

 

I hold a boatmaster for passenger, cargo and tug and pusher work and I never knew that it was in the gift of the navigation authority whether to apply MCA regs ot not! I thought it was all a legal requirement following Marchioness.

 

You live and learn.

 

George ex nb ALTON retired

 

Only for passenger vessels that carry more than 12 passengers. The BCA and the MCA still make BML holding necessary for skippers of Merlin and John Pinkerton, as has been mentioned above.

 

I could not renew my BML when I failed the medical, but I am fit enough to be trusted with up to 12 passengers, it seems.

 

Tone

[Chertsey]

I have done the CCBM and I have to say it really doesn't prove very much. I had to steer in a straight line, wind (badly) and plan a round trip taking in shopping trips, water points and a visit to a National Trust property armed only with a 1983 Nicholsons (which is all that happened to be on the boat). There is some stuff about safety briefings etc. and man overboard in theory. To say that BW 'accept it' is a bit misleading - accept it for what? Allan says it qualifies you to helm a boat with up to 12 passengers - but you can do that legally without any qualification. CCBM does not legally entitle you to do anything that you can't do without it. Boatmaster on the other hand from what I know of it is overkill for smaller canal-based operations, but there is nothing in between.

 

As discussed before, the 12 passenger cut off point seems arbitrary and ridiculous, especially in the light of this inflexibility.

Edited May 15, 2011 by Chertsey

[howardang]

 

As discussed before, the 12 passenger cut off point seems arbitrary and ridiculous, especially in the light of this inflexibility.

 

The MCA are nothing if not traditional in some respects and the 12 passenger cut off I think stems from the shipp classification of a passenger vessel - i.e. over 12 passengers. What has always been strange is the classification of a passenger as someone over 12 months old. A baby under that age still needs looking after etc.

 

Howard

[Allan(nb Albert)]

I have done the CCBM and I have to say it really doesn't prove very much. I had to steer in a straight line, wind (badly) and plan a round trip taking in shopping trips, water points and a visit to a National Trust property armed only with a 1983 Nicholsons (which is all that happened to be on the boat). There is some stuff about safety briefings etc. and man overboard in theory. To say that BW 'accept it' is a bit misleading - accept it for what? Allan says it qualifies you to helm a boat with up to 12 passengers - but you can do that legally without any qualification. CCBM does not legally entitle you to do anything that you can't do without it. Boatmaster on the other hand from what I know of it is overkill for smaller canal-based operations, but there is nothing in between.

 

As discussed before, the 12 passenger cut off point seems arbitrary and ridiculous, especially in the light of this inflexibility.

 

You raise a very valid point.

 

Anyone can hire a boat for up to twelve with no qualifications whatsoever. However, organisations that are members of NCBA, require helmsmen to be qualified to CCBM standards.

 

As such, it is not a case of BW accepting it, but rather a case of self regulation demanding higher standards than imposed by BW.

[Chertsey]

You raise a very valid point.

 

Anyone can hire a boat for up to twelve with no qualifications whatsoever. However, organisations that are members of NCBA, require helmsmen to be qualified to CCBM standards.

 

As such, it is not a case of BW accepting it, but rather a case of self regulation demanding higher standards than imposed by BW.

Part of my point being that the standards of CCBM are not very exacting, and it's hardly worth having, except it looks good for community boats to be able to say their skippers are 'qualified' even though it's a purely internal qualification with, AFAIK, no external/independent validation or quality control.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

Part of my point being that the standards of CCBM are not very exacting, and it's hardly worth having, except it looks good for community boats to be able to say their skippers are 'qualified' even though it's a purely internal qualification with, AFAIK, no external/independent validation or quality control.

 

My experience is the opposite of yours. I found my two day training and assessment course quite challenging,in particular the group management aspects.

[Chertsey]

My experience is the opposite of yours. I found my two day training and assessment course quite challenging,in particular the group management aspects.

That's precisely my point - there is clearly no consistency, and poor if any quality control, so it's pretty meaningless.

[Allan(nb Albert)]

That's precisely my point - there is clearly no consistency, and poor if any quality control, so it's pretty meaningless.

 

That's rather a sweeping statement to make based on our combined experiences!

Edited May 16, 2011 by Allan(nb Albert)